It's not Islam, is it?

El_Machinae said:

I can see that. I don't agree, though, that the Koran gives insight into such a being. Agreeing with "there is a prime cause" does not lead to "the Koran is God's word" very well.

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That a very critical conclusion, but from agreeing with "there is a prime cause" we lead to conclusion that there is God. Everything beside human live in their own nature and one with the system of life. We call it in Islam fitrah or nature of something. While they born they live in cycle of life and routine activity. The only entity in this world that live not as their nature or like a cancer is human. In Islam we say it as human have a good fitrah or nature, but it is their desire and their denial or transgression to following their lust who make them ashtray as it say in surah At Tin

La Qod holqonal Insana fi ahsani ta'wim
Indeed we create men in the best stature
Tsumma Rodadnahu asfala safilin
then we reduced him to the lowest of the low
ilalladzi na amanuu wa amilusholihati falahum ajrun ghoiru mamnuun
except those who believe and do righteous deed for them is the endless reward

In this ayah it explaining all men are good in nature but most of them fall to the lowest of the low even lower than animal because of the wrong deeds that they done. And for those who believe and do righteous deeds is the one who keeping their nature.

And Quran is a guide and reminder for our purpose in life and for the meaning of our existence. None of us choose to live this life, we are appear in the middle of it as this life been force to us. You not choosing to be an American as do the Japanese not choosing to be a Japan, as you not choosing to live under a rich parents as other don't choose to live under a poor parents. This life is come to us as mysteries. As something that come and we can't deny it, it force us to question the meaning of our existences, the one who set us up in this life, and what does He want. And as do Bible and Torah so Quran also been given to us so we been guide, and know the reason of our creation and existences, and to correct what ever been corrupted before, and to address what ever not been address before. Quran is a chain of scripture, as a Bible is a chain of scripture to Torah. Muhammad (pbuh) is a chain of prophet as Jesus (pbuh), Moses (pbuh), David (pbuh), Noah (pbuh) until Adam (pbuh) are chains of prophet hood.

And if religious peoples or ahlu kitab tell me to worship God of Israel alone, and not to take association with other beside Him. And I will tell him "that exactly what I do or I trying to do in my life"

That is Islam.

The problem is moreso religious fanatics in a situation where they can get away with violence more than islam itself. You dont see muslims fanatics in Germany attacking an embassy or organizing a stoning because they cant get away with it. In chaos riddled areas like Pakistan or Egypt though there isnt enough state control to smother down the fanatical ones. I think if you put the most fanatical members of any religion in the sort of chaotic regions islamic fanatics thrive you'd see some pretty vile problems too.

Its just a theory though, its hard to know because the core regions of the various would religions are in very different areas so it is hard to know if differences are due to differences in the political/cultural situation or the religion itself.

kramerfan86 said:

The problem is moreso religious fanatics in a situation where they can get away with violence more than islam itself. You dont see muslims fanatics in Germany attacking an embassy or organizing a stoning because they cant get away with it. In chaos riddled areas like Pakistan or Egypt though there isnt enough state control to smother down the fanatical ones. I think if you put the most fanatical members of any religion in the sort of chaotic regions islamic fanatics thrive you'd see some pretty vile problems too.

Its just a theory though, its hard to know because the core regions of the various would religions are in very different areas so it is hard to know if differences are due to differences in the political/cultural situation or the religion itself.

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That is a riot, they blame US government for let the peoples who burn their Quran and mock their prophet get away with their action without any consequences and the action is keep repeating.

Their feeling toward US government and official is like the feeling of the oppress toward to oppressor. When peoples rise up from oppression they will rise and storm like what happen in French revolution but this even lesser than that.

We can understand why Egypt peoples angry to Mubarak, or why Muslim angry to Syria government, and for me the anger of Muslim toward US government is easier to understand than that, it even easier to understand than the anger of muslim toward Israel occupation in Palestine because what US do is include what Israel do even more than that. Their pain seeing their brother been shot and sister been rape, is already in their chest, in these movie is act as a trigger for something that already inside them.

Well, then these people need to understand that the US government cannot control that. We have freedom of speech and expression hear so bible burning, Koran burning, whatever burning(including make fun of religious figures like Jesus and Mohammed) is not prohibited.

Islam is a lot like what Christianity was 500 years ago. Most of the Islamic world has just not undergone reform and their culture and lifestyle which is largely influenced by their religious beliefs is simply not compatible with the rest of the modern world.

There are certain things you can blame partly on the west, but there are other things like their oppression against Women which you really can't. Other cultures have had those views in the past, but they've mostly grown out of them. Even other cultures that originated from that region. The only major difference is the faith. You can deflect blame all you want, but the radical or cultural interpretation of the the holy scriptures is going to be one of the central reasons when you get down to it.

Or vice versa? Do you think either Islam or the "modern world" will have to go?

Which do you think will win out in the end?

Borachio said:

Or vice versa? Do you think either Islam or the "modern world" will have to go?

Which do you think will win out in the end?

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Islam won't win against the modern world. It lags behind in almost every area and it just won't appeal to the majority of the world that have moved on. One of the reasons that there are few converts away from Islam is the unspoken punishment of death if you convert away from it in many of the muslim countries.

I don't think apostasy is unspoken.

But what makes you so sure Islam won't win? It is on the increase in the developed and undeveloped world.

It doesn't lag behind in terms of morality does it? And historically, Islamic culture has been at the technological leading edge. There's no reason to suppose it won't be again.

Fallen Angel Lord said:

Well, then these people need to understand that the US government cannot control that. We have freedom of speech and expression hear so bible burning, Koran burning, whatever burning(including make fun of religious figures like Jesus and Mohammed) is not prohibited.

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Peoples respect something that important for them, it is a crucial demand for human nature, for example we have sense of dignity and etc.

Every human even they are being irrespective toward their religion they nature are grow to respect the things that valuable to them, their mother, their son, their daughter, I don't know if US freedom of speech will let someone slandering and mocking another person character or wife that harm them both in material and immaterial.

Civilize nation must also have civilize manners and respect other difference and territory.

I accustom with US culture but not as accustom as most peoples here in this forum. So tell me, do they have limitation for their freedom of speech? how about on racism? or hate speech toward specific group of peoples?

What I know in the terms of freedom of expression in US. They still have a limit. As you can't go in the street nakedly without any cloths. So there are limitation.

And they must also know, what happen in US will effect other countries, peoples and civilization who have a difference terminology of what is freedom than US. In Islam we do also have our freedom of speech, but not according to your definition and understanding.

If they resist, well that is the consequences. They force peoples to understand their concept but refuse to understand other concept. That is not a good form of communication.

Fallen Angel Lord said:

Islam is a lot like what Christianity was 500 years ago. Most of the Islamic world has just not undergone reform and their culture and lifestyle which is largely influenced by their religious beliefs is simply not compatible with the rest of the modern world.

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You think like that? Mostly our civilization are copy cat of western constitution, also our media and life style, and if you follow the history, the twilight of Islamic civilization follow by how they reluctantly follow to been dictate by west culture and loosing their own identity in the way.

Not so many muslim living Islam this day, mostly they living their tradition or modern culture. Many of us think the conclusion that can solve the problem is we back to our own identity and back to Islam, because the lack of Islam within the society.

But now, there a revolution in the muslim community, not like before, they want to go back to Islam, they care and study their religion more then their father and grand father generation. And you see, in the street, in media, everywhere, there is the awakening of Islam.

So it not quite right if you say mostly Islamic country are like christian 500 year ago. They are practically, most of them, like you.

haroon said:

Peoples respect something that important for them, it is a crucial demand for human nature, for example we have sense of dignity and etc.

Every human even they are being irrespective toward their religion they nature are grow to respect the things that valuable to them, their mother, their son, their daughter, I don't know if US freedom of speech will let someone slandering and mocking another person character or wife that harm them both in material and immaterial.

Civilize nation must also have civilize manners and respect other difference and territory.

I accustom with US culture but not as accustom as most peoples here in this forum. So tell me, do they have limitation for their freedom of speech? how about on racism? or hate speech toward specific group of peoples?

What I know in the terms of freedom of expression in US. They still have a limit. As you can't go in the street nakedly without any cloths. So there are limitation.

And they must also know, what happen in US will effect other countries, peoples and civilization who have a difference terminology of what is freedom than US. In Islam we do also have our freedom of speech, but not according to your definition and understanding.

If they resist, well that is the consequences. They force peoples to understand their concept but refuse to understand other concept. That is not a good form of communication.

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Its a basic right to mock people and characters as long as you don't incite violent action against them. We can mock the president or any politician and we can mock religious leaders of any religion. Islam is just another religion, its not special, it doesn't get special treatment. If the KKK wants to hold a rally for white supremecy, the state cannot stop them as long as they don't advocate hanging black people.

You think like that? Mostly our civilization are copy cat of western constitution, also our media and life style, and if you follow the history, the twilight of Islamic civilization follow by how they reluctantly follow to been dictate by west culture and loosing their own identity in the way.

Not so many muslim living Islam this day, mostly they living their tradition or modern culture. Many of us think the conclusion that can solve the problem is we back to our own identity and back to Islam, because the lack of Islam within the society.

But now, there a revolution in the muslim community, not like before, they want to go back to Islam, they care and study their religion more then their father and grand father generation. And you see, in the street, in media, everywhere, there is the awakening of Islam.

So it not quite right if you say mostly Islamic country are like christian 500 year ago. They are practically, most of them, like you.

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Maybe, in your pop culture aspects, you are like us but in terms of legal system, justice system, and human rights system, you are nothing like the west. You are essentially a theocracy that has its system guided by whatever interpretation of your holy book is present in that country. Many of the legal aspects of Islam today are much like the ones of Christianity of 500-600 years ago where blasphemy carries penalty of death.

People who are ignorant and poor are subject to manipulation. Does not speak well for the future of the West.

Fallen Angel Lord said:

Islam won't win against the modern world. It lags behind in almost every area and it just won't appeal to the majority of the world that have moved on. One of the reasons that there are few converts away from Islam is the unspoken punishment of death if you convert away from it in many of the muslim countries.

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what is your definition on winning? Before there is no competition, if there is no competition there is no winning. But imperialism create competition and this winning or not winning definition.

Before they colonize south east asia, India, America, because their rivalry between themselves. Spain between England, Catholic and Protestant, etc etc, they need more money to support their competition and rivalry in Europe. Include also their fear of Ottoman. So there is a competition.

But let just say, if you winning definition is "war". Take example the Alliances now is losing many battle and territory in Afghanistan. For me it just a matter of time until they completely leave Afghanistan, as one per one of their allies already move out from Afghanistan.

And it is Islam, simply. They are giving a crusade. The object is to remove all non-believers from the Middle East, or kill them. It will be played out in blood. That is all there really is to it.

haroon said:

what is your definition on winning? Before there is no competition, if there is no competition there is no winning. But imperialism create competition and this winning or not winning definition.

Before they colonize south east asia, India, America, because their rivalry between themselves. Spain between England, Catholic and Protestant, etc etc, they need more money to support their competition and rivalry in Europe. Include also their fear of Ottoman. So there is a competition.

But let just say, if you winning definition is "war". Take example the Alliances now is losing many battle and territory in Afghanistan. For me it just a matter of time until they completely leave Afghanistan, as one per one of their allies already move out from Afghanistan.

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There is the fact that most western countries will allow you to convert to any religion you want whereas most Islamic ones won't let you convert away if you are Muslim in the first place. They can't keep that up forever. Sometime people are going to realize that the way Islam is practiced currently in the Middle East is going to screw over their modern progress. Religious theocracies have a far harder time to reform and modernize than any other form of government.

Fallen Angel Lord said:

Its a basic right to mock people and characters as long as you don't incite violent action against them. We can mock the president or any politician and we can mock religious leaders of any religion. Islam is just another religion, its not special, it doesn't get special treatment. If the KKK wants to hold a rally for white supremecy, the state cannot stop them as long as they don't advocate hanging black people.

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So if my freedom of speech definition is free to expressing our opinion without provoking violent, hatred of specific race, believe, scripture, and killing peoples character, what will you do? will you force what you believe on me?

Fallen Angel Lord said:

Maybe, in your pop culture aspects, you are like us but in terms of legal system, justice system, and human rights system, you are nothing like the west. You are essentially a theocracy that has its system guided by whatever interpretation of your holy book is present in that country. Many of the legal aspects of Islam today are much like the ones of Christianity of 500-600 years ago where blasphemy carries penalty of death.

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Theocracy? interpretation of holy book in that country? what are you talking about? Indonesia judicial system is a copy cat of dutch. Turks judicial system have lots influence from French. All of them presidential non of them been rule by amirul mukminin non of them take the law from Quran.

So you think we muslim, live in Islamic government that rule by Quran and Hadith? I'm sorry but you don't know what you are talking about.

MisterCooper said:

And it is Islam, simply. They are giving a crusade. The object is to remove all non-believers from the Middle East, or kill them. It will be played out in blood. That is all there really is to it.

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If that is what we intend, then we already wipe out the non believer from Lebanon, Palestine, Syria, Egypt from long time ago. Even in the time of Amr Ibn Ash, it this the Coptic christian who open the gate for the muslim so the muslim can free them from the East Roman Empire.

Also the battle in Visigoth, it been motor by Arianus Christian and Jews who want to free themselves from persecution by Visigoth, by that the muslim open Spain.

What is all the nightmare stories about Islam really? I live one house with catholic for 5 year he even go for 1 month with my family for Eidul Fitri.

I never know they feed you this kind of crap, where did you get this?

Ignore MisterCooper; he's a stereotype of a mindset that doesn't really exist.

Let's not forget that "crusade" is a CHRISTIAN word.

edit: I like Mr Cooper. Though I don't like the ideas he expresses.

Fallen Angel Lord said:

There is the fact that most western countries will allow you to convert to any religion you want whereas most Islamic ones won't let you convert away if you are Muslim in the first place. They can't keep that up forever. Sometime people are going to realize that the way Islam is practiced currently in the Middle East is going to screw over their modern progress. Religious theocracies have a far harder time to reform and modernize than any other form of government.

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If you speak about Arab Saudi system is no way not even in a distance between your left eye to your left eye near to Islamic government. It is even a rebellious state from the Islamic Caliphate which is the Ottoman and the establishment of Arab Saudi (or the Arab Kingdom of Saud family) was been sponsor by England.

If you see Arab Saudi, beside connecting it with Caliphate you can see them as anti-caliphate as that is the fact. And all of this atrocities and war first incite by their western allies want to protect their Saudi buddies from muslim group who want to overthrown their government because they consider far from Islamic.

This is one of several turning point that cause 911 and all this war.

So you should love Saudi government, as they are your allies and supporters, each of their act are supporting the western and against western enemy, even they condemn a relatively peace organization like Ikhwanul Muslimin. So they serve your interest, they are not our, they are yours.

Mostly muslim reject Saudi government system, as so do we mostly reject most of our governor system, they nothing but puppet just like the old days.

El_Machinae said:

Ignore MisterCooper; he's a stereotype of a mindset that doesn't really exist.

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Borachio said:

Let's not forget that "crusade" is a CHRISTIAN word.

edit: I like Mr Cooper. Though I don't like the ideas he expresses.

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Thank you

But really there must be a sources of this fear and horror, peoples hate something that they don't fully understand. How can they hate things that they don't know? like this for example :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYd9qbRz2fc

haroon said:

If that is what we intend, then we already wipe out the non believer from Lebanon, Palestine, Syria, Egypt from long time ago. Even in the time of Amr Ibn Ash, it this the Coptic christian who open the gate for the muslim so the muslim can free them from the East Roman Empire.

Also the battle in Visigoth, it been motor by Arianus Christian and Jews who want to free themselves from persecution by Visigoth, by that the muslim open Spain.

What is all the nightmare stories about Islam really? I live one house with catholic for 5 year he even go for 1 month with my family for Eidul Fitri.

I never know they feed you this kind of crap, where did you get this?

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I mean no offense to peaceful Muslims. Just as I feel no hostility to the vast majority of the German or Japanese people or any other over wars of the past.

But nations and states form and do violence by the designs of the few who feed on the passions and pain of the people. The Islamic world is a ripe field for evil men. So also is Asia. History repeats. If you strive from where you are and I from here perhaps the toll of blood will be less rather than more.

Things are also not well in the West, as insidious liberalism has cast our society into the abyss. Dark days are upon us.