SGOTM 14 - Kakumeika

I think I am near to make a breakthrough about fake Montezuma true personality.
He may be Mansa Musa after all. Just wait, I will make test games.

Fake Monty is in reality Mansa Musa.

Here's my reasoning:

According to the first screenshot at 225 AD, fake Monty is very pleased with fake Mansa Musa as high as +7 religious diplo bonus.
Not all leaders can reach such heights except:

  • Asoka => loves free religion
  • Brennus => loves OR
  • Charlie => loves Vassality
  • Izzy => loves theocracy
  • Justinian => loves theocracy
  • Mansa => loves free market
  • Ramesses => loves OR
  • Zara Yaqob => loves Theocracy

Everybody is under OR and no one became gleeful towards another one for running a good civic. So we can give up Brennus and Ramesses cases.
Monty team has researched Theology and are still under OR. Unless they are not ready to swirch yet, being theocracy the favorite civic, therefore one can give up on Izzy, Justinian and Zara Yacob.
The remaining candidates are Asoka, Charlie and Mansa Musa.
Thanks to Kaitzilla's real game save at T118, I took a peek to see what is the instant diplo hit for running a heathen religion: Monty showed -3 instantly.

I ran a test game with those candidates and Asoka showed mildy his teeth with -1 diplo hit for heathen religion.
Remains the final battle between Charlie and Mansa Musa. This one is trickier. Mansa is pleased at +2 (thanks to hidden diplo modifiers) instead of +3 for Charlie. Another point is the poor number of units I observed. Moreover, fake Monty is running Caste System, typical civic coming from our dastard mass techer.

Overall advantage or consequences to know this:

First we can confirm if it is Mansa Musa once for all the moment everyone is converting to Vassality. If no favorite civic in info panel popping out the blue, then MM won.
Since we want them to be our friend, we should mass trade with fake Monty for getting lots of "You have shared discovery with us".
Unfortunately, we cannot be privileged to trade monopoly techs with Mansa because of his companion fake Gandhi. Nonetheless, fake Gandhi seems to be a peaceful leader goaling culture victory and have a low "We don't want to trade it just yet".


=================================================

Summary:

Fake Asoka= Real Toku.
Fake Monty=Real Mansa Musa.
 

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Looks real nice Tachywaxon! Once the west witches get fuedalism, then we will know for sure between Mansa and Charlie. It is certainly looking like Mansa ya. He tends to request techs a lot, that poor begger :lol:
 
Okay. I mostly agree to bcool's PPP being incapable to find a weaker goal decision.
 
OK, this looks like a job for optimization with my spreadsheet. I'll have a go at it tomorrow, but I will be largely offline this weekend, so will have to leave things in bc's capable hands.

Time has not allowed me to do anything concrete. I doubt you'll hear much / anything from me until next week. Good luck and good educating! :lol:
 
Okay, I'll try to work out a detailed plan for my PPP in 24 hours assuming the major goals listed in my rough PPP.

addressing concerns:
the city visibility will not be compromised after the machinery steal (we only need ~780 espionage right now for city visibility of the western witches)

I think we want GPFarm to grow we need a lot of great scientists fast so no whips in my opinion.

I hesitate to push our luck running scientists in the capital. However we could possibly speed up the engineer in Washington by building the Hagia Sophia instead of a market perhaps. Hagia sophia would be built ~12-16 turns ( might be possible to build before we finish education). It would speed up Washington's engineer only by a few turns, probably not worth it. The Hagia sophia is basically like building workers (250 raw hammers for ~25% more workers. We would have ~10 workers so like 2-3 workers.) Not a great deal in the short term. Long term might be good if we expand our empire with a war dramatically. Of course there is a cost of not having a market in Washington and a cost of running more mines than cottages. In the end not a great idea.

re taoism in Isengard?
I wasn't planning to spread taoism to Isengard, so I'll take a closer look at the advantages of whipping a missionary in gems and then a forge whip and then the AP (gives us time to see if the AP is started somewhere by the western witches perhaps too since we might have maps by then...)

re: look into messing with eastern witches diplo
I will look into trades that prevent the eastern witches from making friends (request other witches to stop trading with them if possible, etc.)

Nice work Tachy on personality matching. I would be happy if you continued with that task :)

I'll look into the blocking city-gift idea, but no time tonight to assess its viability. (gift away barbarian city we might capture to block perhaps?)
 
I took a stab at predicting where and when our great people will be born out to about T175.

Assumptions
switch to pacifism and caste system T138-139
no GA used ( although this will accelerate our actual great people production and will require us to modify the plan I predicted in the spreadsheet of course)

estimated Results (not perfect of course -- didn't simulate revolt for example)
GS T128 GPFarm
GE T143 Washington
GS T144 GPFarm
GS T150 Gems (Great Prophet pollution if AP plan works)
GS T150 GPFarm (same turn :) )
GS T157 Stone (significant Great Spy pollution)
GS T158 GPFarm
This period coming up might be a good time for a GA since there is a significant gap in the GP production
GS T167 Silver
GS T169 GPFarm
GS T174 Gems

Oh and GPFarm will slow down a bit once we research scientific method...

I looked at delaying the GE from washington, didn't make sense.
 

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This morning before work I played a little bit with the test game and it does make sense to whip a taoist missionary out of gems, followed by a 2 pop whip of the forge. It doesn't significantly slow down the AP if at all and gets us taoism in isengard.

I'm considering building wealth in isengard to help get paper at least until it gets taoism. It will be hard to stretch and get paper in 4 turns. Probably has to be 5 unless I get a nice lump of gold from a beg of elizabeth. This means I will likely have to start the AP build before I know where or if the western witches have started it.

I still have a lot of micro to plan out and I will look at getting a missionary to Genghis.

If anyone has time to help... Please take a city and plan out what the best tile use,whips, key worker actions might be to achieve the builds we have planned in the PPP. It is hard to do in isolation, but it will be nice to see what others think.
 
slowly cleaning up the PPP for T125-T135 (included screenshots thanks Kaitzilla) and cleaned up a bit deleted scratched out stuff, added some minor changes/clarifications in italics
Goals: (somewhat complete list)
  • Set up 6 cities (Capital, Silver, Stone, GPFarm, isengard Fur City!!!, CB, Gems to build universities) I want to set up a max OF whip of a university in the capital to time with whips of universities in other cities so that we get a max OF into Oxford university.
  • Spread taoism to Trojan Horse, Boston, and key cities that will build a university (so Fur City and CB)
  • Steal machinery and set up another steal for western witches
  • Set up a steal from northern witches near the end of the turn set so that we have a spy ready to steal when an interesting tech is finished
  • Build forges in high production cities and cities that can handle a forge whip and university whip in reasonable time
  • Tech Paper and maximize the return from selling maps
  • Build the National Epic and start the AP (and assess our chances of building the AP from great spy intelligence and/or map purchase)
  • Explore Eastern Witches land to assess a future military campaign
  • Pull sentry units back to reduce maintenance since the immediate war threat has been averted
  • Get the Heroic Epic unlocked with elephants attacking barbarian city to the south
  • Get new cities up and running with chops and workboats
  • Limited to no monastery builds... Will start those builds after universities are whipped most likely
  • Continue to make friends with North and Western Witches. Trade with South but don't go out of my way to make friends (hopefully they will be our opponents in the UN elections), Deny Eastern witches everything (still expecting to kill them with a later war)
  • Start Moai in Isengard if it finishes lighthouse, forge, workboat before education is researched or the HE is unlocked.

I want to avoid building a university in GPFarm and Isengard so they can focus on other priorities (making great people, and building forge, moai, HE respectively)

Techs: Paper asap (I want map trades), Education self teched until 1 bulb + 1 turn of research gets us Education, then put slider to 0% (probably beyond my turn set.

Builds
Washington
Spoiler :

Market (using river grass mine instead of a cottage)
will adjust tile use to get pop growth a turn earlier, maybe to maximize commerce and food if helps get paper

StoneCity
Spoiler :

existing missionary to Trojan Horse
taoist missionary (2 pop whipped) for cultural bridge
toaist missionary for Fur City (need to check timing of this)
forge (3 pop whipped?)
toaist missionary for boston
spy for boston
Still need to confirm a 3 pop whip of the forge puts this city is a good position to whip a university

Gems
Spoiler :

taoist missionary
2 pop taoist missionary
for isengard
forge 2 pop whipped immediately after
OF goes into AP

GPFarm
Spoiler :

NE (will work scientist instead of silk if helps get paper a turn earlier and doesn't prevent growth)
missionary for Genghis


Silver
Spoiler :

lighthouse
forge 2 pop whipped
courthouse
might build wealth here to help get paper a turn earlier, will take gold from stone city sometimes


Isengard
Spoiler :

lighthouse
forge (is probably better than Moai first) (2 pop whipped probably)
workboat for fur city
Heroic Epic
(Moai statues instead of Heroic Epic if have time to start it or if HE doesn't get unlocked)



Cultural Bridge
Spoiler :


library (wait for taoism spread to 2 pop whip it, then spy for boston (no forge need pop for university whip most likely need to confirm this)

Marble City
Spoiler :

1 pop whip granary now (can't 2 pop whip because Taoism spread here)
lighthouse 2 pop whip
courthouse

Phants
Spoiler :

Granary whip now
lighthouse
(works dye/farm to grow)
2 pop lighthouse
courthouse

Sheep City
Spoiler :

culture (use grass mine when gems isn't for 1 turn)
chop forest for workboat
then granary (2nd chop goes into granary)


Fur/Sheep/Silver/Marble/seafood city
Spoiler :


culture (might get early taoism) sometimes working 2 hammer tile to get border pop earlier perhaps.
works sheep building library (2 inside BFC chops + 1 outside finish library)
building wealth while waits for education to finish to preserve OF from library chops
2 inside BFC chops + 1 outside finish University (outside turn set, but chops will be set up)



Diplomacy

Tech demands for anything except Philosophy and Paper will be granted to West and North Witches. Gold and resource demands will be granted to West and North Witches also.
All request for halting trades, changing religions, and help with war will be denied if any AI requests them.
All demands from East Witches will be declined.

sell maps (trade out maps for just their gold) to all except eastern witches (to avoid possible diplo hits? -I assume this happens with map trades)
specifics
--sell map to northern witch with most gold
--sell map to southern witch with most gold
--sell map to western witch for map and most gold possible (so we can see if they started the AP)
--sell map to northern witch with most gold
--sell map to southern witch with most gold

trade machinery to northern witches for feudalism + maps + gold
--sell new maps to western witch with most gold
--sell new maps to southern witch for their map and most gold
--sell new maps to western witch with most gold

As the spies explore the eastern witches land, try to sell maps to witches each turn for 5-10 gold perhaps.


cancel 1 gold trade for fish with eastern witches

every turn check for gold-resource trades ( upgrade existing trades for more gold if possible) except no trades to eastern witches

(should I try Tachy's trick of giving the AI gold so we can get more gold from the resource trade? I will test with test game when I get a chance)

espionage
switch espionage to southern witches, keep it there until I get a glimpse of their research, then back to eastern witches to regain a view of their research, then split between south, east, north to maintain views of research of south and east and maximize the remainder to the north

spy steal machinery from the western witches (after taoism spreads there)
new spy jumps into trojan horse immediately

need a spy for boston coming late in my turn set perhaps, but maybe can delay this....

worker goals

Eiffel goes to GPFarm, roads PMine, farms grassland

Stevenson farms for Phants, then Gmine for Phants

Goodyear builds Gems city fort??? (workboats and later missionaries/galleys will use this probably)

Fritz chop forest between GPFarm and gems (either to help workboat build in GPFarm or to help AP build in Gems)
then helps with Gems city fort?

Yama goes down the spoke to help with fur city dropping workshops as it moves down

Karl road ice, road sheep, sheep for Fur city

worker 8, mine, road, road cows for Cultural Bridge

Hoover & Semiramis
farms and gmine for Marble City
one might help with roads to Cultural Bridge

Rama
chops forest for Sheep
chops 2nd forest for sheep
then... down the spoke to help with roads?

Units
Great spy continues scouting monty's lands (we will get city view if the maps reveal them, but just in case we find the AP build city a turn or 2 earlier it helps) Then goes to northern witches lands

warrior near Isengard, pulled back into the city
spear near Isengard, pulled back into the city

elephants to the barbarian city to the south, try to get one up to 8 xp
galley waits for fort to be built near gems then cuts through there and picks up missionary to go to northern witches.


Great People
Great Scientist expected will save for bulb as mabraham describes
Great Artist sleeps

Will slow down GPFarm so Washington gets the 500 gp great person for an engineer in ~20 turns.
Other cities will grow rather than run specialists, unless a specialist or 2 or 3 will get me Paper 1 turn earlier.
 
So my plan is to work out and practice the micro tonight, and then play tomorrow in about 15 hours.

No one has requested the micro, so I will assume people are okay with me "making it happen". I will attempt to post the micro tonight regardless in about 6 hours so any thoughts on it before I post would be welcome and any issues you find with the micro I post would be appreciated.
 
So my plan is to work out and practice the micro tonight, and then play tomorrow in about 15 hours.

No one has requested the micro, so I will assume people are okay with me "making it happen". I will attempt to post the micro tonight regardless in about 6 hours so any thoughts on it before I post would be welcome and any issues you find with the micro I post would be appreciated.

I don't mind looking at the micro. Someone has to verify if mabraham isn't around. :)
I have time at last :smoke:... unless you post those details way too late for me, but I know you generally go to bed before me. ;)
 
Okay I'll write up the micro soon, here is a test game from my play thru...

I will improve it slightly in real game details will follow soon.
 

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City builds (at this point I'm hoping all will agree that tracking food and hammers isn't necessary... I'm using the experience of the test game to get a feel for when I want food to encourage an earlier growth and I'll be watching the food bin totals as I play with these reminders below)

Washington
T125 Market, all cottages and resource tiles (let stone city develop shared cottage)
T126 Market, all cottages and resource tiles
T127 Market, add Gmine
T128 Market
T129 Market
T130 Market, add plains cottage
T131 Market
T132 Market (take shared cottage back from stone city)
T133 Monastery (switch mine to lake for earlier growth)
T134 Monastery (no lakes, mines)
T135 ???

Stone City
T125 taoist missionary (give gold to silver city so only 8 hammers produced)
T126 2 pop whip missionary (gold and stone so silver can grow)
T127 taoist missionary (give gold back to silver
T128 forge
T129 forge
T130 forge
T131 forge
T132 3 pop whip forge
T133 monastery
T134 courthouse
T135 ???

Gems City
T125 Taoist missionary (no mines except Pmine, no scientists --set up 2 pop whip) (Sheep takes a grass hill mine for 1 turn while it is unused here)
T126 2 pop whip Taoist missionary (grass mines, but no Pmine)
T127 2 pop forge (grass mines)
T128-T134 AP (adding engineer then coast as pop grows)

GPFarm
T125 NE all land tiles except Pmine
T126 NE coast to get growth a turn earlier later
T127 NE switch from coast to PMine
T128 NE (finishes) (after this adds coast as it grows)
T129 taoist missionary
T130 taoist missionary
T131 taoist missionary
T132 taoist missionary
T133 taoist missionary (switch coast to new grass farm)
T134 taoist missionary
T135???

Silver
T125 lighthouse (takes gold from stone, no silver)
T126 forge max food
T127 forge (takes gold back)
T128 forge
T129 forge
T130 forge
T131 forge (works silver again)
T132 forge
T133 3 pop whips forge
T134 wealth
T135 ???

Isengard
T125 lighthouse
T126 lighthouse (adds spy specialist)
T127 forge/wealth
T128 forge/wealth
T129 workboat for fur city
T130 workboat for fur city
T131 forge/wealth
T132 forge/wealth
T133 whips forge
T134 overflows into HE
T135 ???

Cultural Bridge
T125 library
T126 library (no mines)
T127 library (max food)
T128 library (max food)
T129 library** whip library depends if taoism spreads successfully-- it didn't in the test game
T130 whip library if taoism didn't spread
T131 spy works mines
T132 spy no mines
T133 spy no mines
T134 courthouse
T135 ???

Marble
T125 granary whip (add farms as it grows)
T126-T132 lighthouse
T133 whip lighthouse
T134 courthouse
T135???

Phants
T125 granary whip (works dye then switch farm when finished, then dye again)
T126-T134 lighthouse

sheep
T125 culture with gmine stolen from gems
T126 culture forest
T127 workboat (work coast)
T128 culture (citizen)
T129-T131 granary (works clams)
T132 whip granary
T133 lighthouse
T134 lighthouse

Fur


T129 founded culture improved sheep
T130 culture (taoism spread here)
T131 culture
T132 library (using 1 culture from taoism to pop borders in time for chops)
T133 library
T134 library
T135 ???

workers.... coming soon

Fritz
T125 n/a
T126 moves to forest between gems and gpfarm
T127-T129 chops
T130 move to help with Gems city fort
T131-T132 fort
T133 farm 1 east of wheat & wake
T134 incense plantation/fort which ever finishes earlier in real game
T135 ???

Goodyear
T125 farm 1E of wheat & wake
T126-T132 Gems city fort/canal
T133-T134 workshop 1NE of sheep city
T135 workshop?

Eiffel
T125 n/a
T126 moves to River Pmine near GPfarm
T127-T128 roads Pmine
T129-T133 farms grass near GPFarm
T134 roads farm tile 1 south of river pmine

Hoover
T125 road 1W of capital (spreads up missionary from stone city to cultural bridge)
T126 roads cows
T127 roads 1NE of cultural bridge
T128 road 1SW of corn & wake
T129-130 farm 1NW of marble
T131-134 farms 1N of marble

Yamasaki
T125 moves to copper
T126 moves 1E on plains and workshops and stops
T127 moves to forest E of fur
T128 road sheep south of fur city site
T129-130 sheep pasture
T131 move forest 2E1S
T132-T134 chop
T135???

worker 8
T125-T126 mine
T127 roads NE of cultural bridge
T128 moves to grass mine 2N of cultural bridge (to build road network)
T129-T130 roads
T131 moves and farms 1E of wheat and stops
T132 helps with gems city fort
T133 workshops 1NE of sheep city
T134 workshops 1NE of sheep city
T135 ???

Semiramis
T125 road 1W of capital
T126 roads cows south of capital
T127-T129 farms 1NW of Marble
T130 moves to grass hill south of marble
T131-T134 mines...

Rama
T125-T127 chops for sheep city
T128 moves to 2nd forest
T129-T131 chops for sheep city
T132 moves to copper
T133 moves to the edge of isengard's culture
T134 moves and chops forest near Fur City.

Karl
T125-6 roads ice
T127 roads sheep near future fur city
T128 moves back prechops forest near fur city
T129-130 sheep pasture
T131 moves 2W1S forest
T132-T134 chops
 
I could only make tests of Washington, Stone City and Gems City so far...
Workers' movements were verified and are mostly strong moves. I really like the construction of the canal near Gems city. Although being a failure to find faulty moves and help, it partially ended up to reinforce bcool's PPP.

Washington's PPP is well designed, so I don't have a word to it.

Stone City's PPP was the part who took an eternity to figure out...
The part where the Taoist monastery is done in one turn was a mystery to me if I stick to the PPP.
I did a bad clone to the one intended using tiles I shouldn't use like GMine from Washington and extentedly gold tile. I ended to finish Monastery in one turn at T132, but at T135, I observed I swapped four :food: in the tank to 4 :hammers:, trying to get 12 organic :hammers: to max OR bonus:. :undecide: Still, food is superior and the building is not in a hurry.

Gems City PPP's was another head scratcher. Of course, I had to lose ~10 min to find out I missed the forest next to Horse City. Although, I never got 297 :hammers: out of 400 :hammers:. Nonetheless, I did not consider the grass workshop 2W of Gems City...still it should be built near T135. I did not verified 'coz late.

Frankly, you two are living in another world. I can't keep up. :undecide:

At least, i caught an intimate glimpse of your intentions and they are strong ones.

BTW, I think you forgot to put engineer GPP in your GPP spreadsheet, but you said it was far from perfect, so. Nice double scientist in one turn by adding the last 132 :gp: in GPFarm . I always wanted that sort of stuff for cultural games at the last turns before victory. How do you know which cities have priority...date of foundation?

EDIT:

It might take me some time since I was distracted by my wife until now, so don't stay up too late.

Lol. :groucho: Sorry, I did not obey once again...:run:

Now, I will step back like my HoF's fellows...wise decision. Hmmm.
 

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The hell...we have 10,000 more views than PD and posts' number doubled!

Keep it up! We are the most active team. :rockon:[party]

bcool, you will show "you are not goofing around"...

I would be happy if you continued with that task :)

Thank you. From now on, I will handle this stuff unless somebody else is against it.
Of course, I do not stop anybody to advance a theory if they easily stumble on it.
 
After playing through the testgame and sleeping on it...

I think my idea to avoid a university whip in GPFarm was just wrong. GPFarm has enough population to whip at least a university and still be at 13-14 population when we switch to caste system. If I get a lucky taoism spread I will start a courthouse in GPFarm to set up a max overflow whip into the university the turn we get education, so that the university whip is only 2 pop as well.
And the university in GPFarm is going to produce a minimum of 15 research per turn! (60 science by 10 scientists * 0.25 = 15) Well worth the whip...

And I didn't account for the increased maintenance of settling Fur city in my education estimate. So I think it makes sense to chop a forests into a granary whip it and then finish the courthouse with 2-3 forest chops possibly in caste system.

I'm going to go with
GPFarm
T125 NE all land tiles except Pmine
T126 NE coast to get growth a turn earlier later
T127 NE switch from coast to PMine
T128 NE (finishes) (after this adds coast as it grows)
T129 taoist missionary
T130 taoist missionary
T131 taoist missionary
T132 courthouse* if get lucky taoism spread (if not missionary to spread to Phants city)
T133 courthouse (switch coast to new grass farm)
T134 courthouse
T135 ...

T129 founded culture improved sheep
T130 culture (taoism spread here)
T131 culture
T132 granary (using 1 culture from taoism to pop borders in time for chops)
T133 granary
T134 granary 1 chop
T135 granary 1 pop whip, 2nd chop (whipping the granary like this allows us to finish the courthouse in caste system with chops)


I hope to play in 2 hours from now with these changes and the micro above.
I apologize that some of my micro notes are incomplete. I didn't track where I was working the gold very well in stone city, so that is why Tachy might have had issues.
 
By the way, I think it is a bad idea to fortify all the units before you upload. It is easy for the next player to miss a unit and let him sleep away the whole turn set...

I woke up the settler, the workers, the spear, the elephants, the warrior outside our borders, the missionary, the galley, the chariot, the workboat, the spies... anything else I'm forgetting?
The axeman outside our borders (who will go exploring)
 
By the way, I think it is a bad idea to fortify all the units before you upload. It is easy for the next player to miss a unit and let him sleep away the whole turn set...

I woke up the settler, the workers, the spear, the elephants, the warrior outside our borders, the missionary, the galley, the chariot, the workboat, the spies... anything else I'm forgetting?
The axeman outside our borders (who will go exploring)


Heh, I did not think of that. I always check with the military advisor to see where all the units are after I load a game. That sounds like you woke everything. Maybe double check that all 10 workers, the great spy, and the archer if you wanted to move him too.

I'll stop fortifying units at the end of my turnset.
 
I think my idea to avoid a university whip in GPFarm was just wrong. GPFarm has enough population to whip at least a university and still be at 13-14 population when we switch to caste system. If I get a lucky taoism spread I will start a courthouse in GPFarm to set up a max overflow whip into the university the turn we get education, so that the university whip is only 2 pop as well.
And the university in GPFarm is going to produce a minimum of 15 research per turn! (60 science by 10 scientists * 0.25 = 15) Well worth the whip...

I'm glad you reversed your decision on building a University in GPFarm. A University in a Great Scientist Farm is really a must and it should grow back fast enough to be ready for Caste System or we should change its name FoodPoorCommercePoorHammerPoor.

This should help make it easier to whip six Universities 1 turn after Education!

Sun Tzu Wu
 
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