It's not Islam, is it?

Christians and Moslems and Jews all are brothers as they all serve the same God and are all plagued by the same Satan.
 
Christians and Moslems and Jews all are brothers as they all serve the same God and are all plagued by the same Satan.

According to Islam, Allah has no son, a vital point of difference between it and Christianity.
 
If you speak about Arab Saudi system is no way not even in a distance between your left eye to your left eye near to Islamic government. It is even a rebellious state from the Islamic Caliphate which is the Ottoman and the establishment of Arab Saudi (or the Arab Kingdom of Saud family) was been sponsor by England.

If you see Arab Saudi, beside connecting it with Caliphate you can see them as anti-caliphate as that is the fact. And all of this atrocities and war first incite by their western allies want to protect their Saudi buddies from muslim group who want to overthrown their government because they consider far from Islamic.

This is one of several turning point that cause 911 and all this war.

So you should love Saudi government, as they are your allies and supporters, each of their act are supporting the western and against western enemy, even they condemn a relatively peace organization like Ikhwanul Muslimin. So they serve your interest, they are not our, they are yours.

Mostly muslim reject Saudi government system, as so do we mostly reject most of our governor system, they nothing but puppet just like the old days.


Its not just Saudi Arabia, Iran, Egypt, etc all have rules or procedures in place that make it extremely hard or impossible to convert away from Islam. Muslim countries don't have freedom of religion. They force people into 1 religion. Countries like Iran are worse than Saudi Arabia.
Middle-East Muslims are far more hostile towards non-muslims than non-muslims are towards them.

There are some things that you can blame the west for but there are certain things like oppression of women and certain lack of individual rights that you can't blame on the west.

As long as most of the Middle East still believes Sharia law is the way to live, its pretty hopeless for them.
 
Crazy people are sometimes attracted to mainstream religions, in much the same way that they might be attracted to political parties, or football games. And some religions enable some people to craziness based on how they approach their religion. That's how I'd sum it.

What do sensible people do when confronted with unfortunate opinions that they don't have time for?
Hit "mute", change the channel, change the topic, etc...
 
Personally, I do not think we should draw swords over it.
Personally, I do not think we should draw swords over anything.

Swords--->Ploughshares

But this is outdated. Ploughing the land is not a good idea. Though opinions differ, naturally.

Biovision.org said:
One method that is dominating debate in agriculture and that is of interest to us is minimum or zero tillage, which many farmers in Latin America and Asia are using with very good results. In this method, the soil is regarded as a living entity that should not be disturbed so much through ploughing, harrowing or hand hoeing. This practice ensures that the living organisms living on the surface of the soil and which help promote growth are protected. Furthermore, important nutrients that sustain plant life are also preserved and by the way, you save a lot of money since you reduce the costs for land preparation.
 
Muslim countries don't have freedom of religion. They force people into 1 religion.

Don't go that far, as I always address over and over again mostly Muslim society (not Islamic country or Muslim country, that not valid there no such things right now. Can I call US government as Evangelist country or Spain and Italy as Catholic country?) have a variety of religion more than western and in Islamic Caliphate they protect the variety of religion unlike the Christian base country like Spain or Italy backthen who perform genocide toward the indifferent religion other than them.

Don't go that extreme

Countries like Iran are worse than Saudi Arabia.

Iran is completely in a different Island, like Fatimid and Abbassid. We have different moral conduct and in many things. I don't know as a state they are worst than Saudi, but I also have tons of critic for them, so lets say you have possibility to be right here.


Middle-East Muslims are far more hostile towards non-muslims than non-muslims are towards them.

What ever we talk the argument always back to basic. Alright if really we have more hate than you, than we already banish the coptic, nestorian, jews, catholic, protestant in Muslim region especially in middle east long time ago.

But the fact they still here, and I'm muslim, do I have a horror mind about Christian like you have a horror mind about Islam? honestly these demonizing attitude of yours is usually an attitude of genocide of specific religion or group by another specific religion of group. When you start create a myth about the masses of random peoples, and twist the understanding of their teaching, and make them a pure evil that have to be banish by force or by totally adaptation until their perish both physical by killing or psychological by total assimilation.

My advice don't extreme.


There are some things that you can blame the west

I agree not all of the problem that we face right now it is all because of the west. There also our own mischief and wrong deeds we are not innocence in this, we must hold Islam more and be more pious and put trust in God. This is our mistake that the west cannot be blame for.



for but there are certain things like oppression of women.

You mean oppression of women like wearing hijab and veil? How can you see a nun wearing hijab as religion piety but muslim women or muslimah wearing hijab as oppression? tell me.



As long as most of the Middle East still believes Sharia law is the way to live, its pretty hopeless for them.

Now address me which muslim constitution that is been form with a basic of Quran and Hadith? While the fact is non of them live under Quranic or Hadith law, are any of them taking Jizyah to non believer and make obligatory on dzakat? are any of them abolish taxation include to import and export? are any of them condemn bank system and the use of usury?

none

Fal, learn about Islamic civilization from a fair sources. It is better for you to learn about Islam from the muslim scholars and judge from that.
 
Crazy people are sometimes attracted to mainstream religions, in much the same way that they might be attracted to political parties, or football games. And some religions enable some people to craziness based on how they approach their religion. That's how I'd sum it.

What do sensible people do when confronted with unfortunate opinions that they don't have time for?
Hit "mute", change the channel, change the topic, etc...

the words "crazy" is a very political words, you can point everybody who against your standard as crazy or being posses by somekind of evil spirit or pokemon.

Then create your own normal value and standard then kick out everything that out from that border as crazy.

This method also not uncommon use by state and government usually to govern the public mind for what so call crazy and what so call not crazy in society. As Focault address in Madness and Civilization.
 
The centre of Islamic teaching is Saudi Arabia, by the location of Mecca, history and its wealth. It is also a centre where Islamic radicalism seems to originates from. i am not a scholar or studies the problem in depth, but the solution may lie with de radicalising Saudi Arabia or neutralizing its influence to the rest of the Islamic world.
 
Don't go that far, as I always address over and over again mostly Muslim society (not Islamic country or Muslim country, that not valid there no such things right now. Can I call US government as Evangelist country or Spain and Italy as Catholic country?) have a variety of religion more than western and in Islamic Caliphate they protect the variety of religion unlike the Christian base country like Spain or Italy backthen who perform genocide toward the indifferent religion other than them.

Don't go that extreme
They allow people who are already in the minority religions to worship, this is true. But what happens when a muslim wants to become a christian or an atheist. In Spain in modern days last time I checked, no one pegged you for execution on grounds of that these days, so to suggest that is freedom of religion where you cant actually change religions is false.

And on a hijab, the nun chooses, which is quite different from being forced as is the norm in some islamic places. There is nothing wrong at all with the basic concept of one, if a woman chooses to do so as a sign of her religious piety so be it. If religious law in the area forces her to, that is where the problem is.
 
The matter of dress codes is interesting.

In Afghanistan, I am told, women going about without the hijab are considered prostitutes.

In the US, I am told, public nudity is illegal.

These are different cultures. That seems to be all.
 
The centre of Islamic teaching is Saudi Arabia

Honestly, there many Islamic learning center its hard to decide or justify. In Egypt there is Al Azhar, it also a center of Islamic learning for centuries and there also many prominent scholar derive from there.

In India and Pakistan, there also big scholar like An Nadwi, Maududi, even someone like Muhammad Iqbal.

Syria, Damascus. Many of students from around the worlds gather and study from ulama from Damascus especially from Turkey. And in history Mekkah and Madinah are not the only center of learning and civilization. In time of Umayyah Damascus is flourish their culture. Abbassid era Baghdad and Cordoba. Ottoman era Istanbul. So Islam is a very cosmopolitan, they can settle their ground and base then make a center of civilization everywhere they live.

They are practically less institutional than other religion. They don't depend on scholar or monks or ulama and sheik, they don't depend on religious building for their existence. Even they can establish 5 time prayer while sit down in the bus or laying down in hospital, they still perform it 5 time a day.

Their masjid is the earth, they just lay down some old news paper and start performing salat in the garden, or in the forest, in the middle of the city, or in mountain.

By this you can understand there is no such things as center in Islam, they can flourish everywhere, every place, every moment, every condition, every city.

But Saudi scholar is popular and unique these days because their unique fatwa that can be a results as the influence or order from Saud family.

Some of it can be extreme, but maybe my definition of extreme and your definition can be different. In my terminology of extreme here is how they condemn another muslim group beside them, and many prominent scholar if that is endanger the Saudi ruler they can point them as "jahil" or stupid, or "bidah" or innovator or "ghuluw" or extremist. Because the existence of some Muslim organization they can see it as a threat for Saud family as it also been a threat to other tyrant.

These scholar mostly use their base and logic from a scholar name Muhammad Ibn Abdul Wahhab, which the terms of Wahhabi derive, this is a scholar who also support morally by fatwa the separation of Hejaz or Mekkah, Madinah etc, from the Ottoman, but to make it more specific and simple instead of calling them Wahhabi I call them Saudi salafi. Because peoples that don't understand the matters and the history will start judging everything as Wahhabi as long as it apply sunnah (big beard, not isbal, hijab) even they went more confuse to try to make a connection between Saudi Salafi with Taliban, which Saudi Salafi by fatwa is condemn Taliban.

More and more confuse if we relate Saudi Salafi with Al Qaeda, because they and Al Qaeda are like a mouse and a cat. Many of Saudi the scholar declare Al Qaeda not as muslim but as disbeliever by relating them with Khawarij, and one of the Al Qaeda agenda is to bring down Saudi government system, not to bring down US and her allies, but because the US stand in their way, they storm the US.

So things not as simple as you see, isn't it?

by the location of Mecca, history and its wealth. It is also a centre where Islamic radicalism seems to originates from. i am not a scholar or studies the problem in depth, but the solution may lie with de radicalising Saudi Arabia or neutralizing its influence to the rest of the Islamic world.

Yes maybe we should DE-extremist or de radical many of Saudi ulama and their fatwa mostly in politic. I can agree with that is good idea, but just remember what I state above.
 
I wonder how someone might say "there's no such thing as a Muslim country" (or vis versa). I mean, is it theoretically possible that a country be "Muslim"? Iran has clerics in extremely high governmental positions, and they have religious laws. Don't other countries have authorized 'morality police' that use the Koran as their guide?
 
The centre of Islamic teaching is Saudi Arabia, by the location of Mecca, history and its wealth.

I thought it was Al-Azhar University in Cairo.
 
@Borachio & Kramen

I saw your comment after I post my reply, I don't mean to be rude to not replying, I will reply your post later, it can satisfying or not according to your perspective, but God willing I will say it as I know. But now I have to go.

no promise if I can reply when I'm back but I'll try ;)
 
What ever we talk the argument always back to basic. Alright if really we have more hate than you, than we already banish the coptic, nestorian, jews, catholic, protestant in Muslim region especially in middle east long time ago.

But the fact they still here, and I'm muslim, do I have a horror mind about Christian like you have a horror mind about Islam? honestly these demonizing attitude of yours is usually an attitude of genocide of specific religion or group by another specific religion of group. When you start create a myth about the masses of random peoples, and twist the understanding of their teaching, and make them a pure evil that have to be banish by force or by totally adaptation until their perish both physical by killing or psychological by total assimilation.

My advice don't extreme.

Mandatory State issued religious ID cards, active discrimination against non-muslims for jobs and promotions, death penalty in countries like Iran for coverting away from Islam. Etc, etc. That far more legal and societal hate and prejudice than the western countries have against Islam.


You mean oppression of women like wearing hijab and veil? How can you see a nun wearing hijab as religion piety but muslim women or muslimah wearing hijab as oppression? tell me.

There are many many things your not looking at here from things like many Muslim countries simply highly discourage or outright ban female athletes from competing in the Olympic games to Females not being able to represent themselves equally in a court of law. There are many regions in the Islamic world that if a man assaults or even kills a woman, nothing will happen because according to the testimony of a human rights worker "men are gods here".

Also the Nun in a western country has the right to stop wearing a veil anytime she wants and stop being a Nun. Muslim women do not have the freedom to stop wearing a hijab anytime they want and stop being Muslim without severe reprecussions.

Fal, learn about Islamic civilization from a fair sources. It is better for you to learn about Islam from the muslim scholars and judge from that.

I actually think you need to realize that learning Islamic history/culture from someone who is deeply Islamic is about as good as learning Christianity from a Priest or someone deeply rooted in the religion. It is not a fair and balanced review of the religion or faith. Clerics and people who are deeply religious are always going to be incredibly biased and ignore alot of the bad them that their religion or faith inspires. You need to learn for an indepedent outside source that isn't pro-islam or anti-islam.

Now address me which muslim constitution that is been form with a basic of Quran and Hadith? While the fact is non of them live under Quranic or Hadith law, are any of them taking Jizyah to non believer and make obligatory on dzakat? are any of them abolish taxation include to import and export? are any of them condemn bank system and the use of usury?

Your pointing out strictly non-religious elements of life. Using a banking system has nothing to do with religion. I'm talking about things that actually have to do with religion such as the freedom to convert and not wearing a Hijab for women(there's a difference between the nun and a muslim woman in that the nun freely chooses to wear the veil and take stop being a nun anytime she wants) and also women being treated equally as men and being able to represent themselves equally in courts.

Your also not paying attention to the way many things are governed or done is the Islamic world. You'd really have to be blind if you believe that Islamic countries don't harshly discriminate against non-muslims that live there. Sure, they don't ban them but they're restricted in many facets of life and your not allowed to convert away from Islam.


In Afghanistan, I am told, women going about without the hijab are considered prostitutes.

Think the main argument is that nude people walking around would be too distracting to society and others around them. They wouldn't be able to do anything without staring at the nude people. I guess you could say than Muslims see all women not wearing Hijabs are too hot and would be too distracted by the hotness to perform daily functions right. But that would just make me view such people as extremely weak willed.
 
But if Islam is the truth, absolutely and entirely, why would anyone be able to convert away from it? That just wouldn't make any sense.

And the state of women in the West isn't all it's cracked up to be, either. Despite so called liberal attitudes and equality legislation, women are generally very much discriminated against.
 
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