ALC Game 16 Pre-Game Thread: Playing as Cyrus

Sisiutil

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All Leaders Challenge Pre-Game Show:
Game #16 - Persia/Cyrus



In the next ALC game, I'll be playing as Cyrus, leader of Persia. This thread is to discuss, before the game, how to best exploit that particular leader's characteristics, which is the main feature and purpose of the ALC series. Just so we're clear, I'm playing with the Warlords expansion pack and the difficulty level will be Monarch. The speed is Epic, the map is Fractal. Here's the fact sheet:

Traits: Charismatic (+1 happiness per city, -25% XP needed for unit promotions, +1 happiness from Monument, Broadcast Tower) and Imperialistic (+100% Great General emergence, 50% faster production of settlers)
Starting Techs: Agriculture and Hunting
Unique Unit: Immortal (Replaces Chariot; Strength: 4, Movement: 2, Cost: 25; Unique Characteristics: Can withdraw from combat (30% chance); +50% vs. Archery Units)
Unique Building: Apothecary (Replaces Grocer; Cost: 150; Requires: Guilds and Currency; Unique Characteristics: +2 Health)

Cyrus is interesting in that he's one of the few leaders whose traits changed completely from Civ IV vanilla, where he had the relatively peaceful Creative and Expansive traits. Now, he has the potential to live up to the tile of the expansion pack; Charismatic and Imperialistic are very good traits for a warlord.

Charismatic provides +1 happiness, which is always a welcome benefit, especially as you move up to the higher difficulty levels and the "happiness cap" drops significantly. But its main benefit is the reduced XPs required for promotions. When Charistmatic, it makes sense to war early and war often to build up an army of highly-promoted veterans sooner than your rivals. You can then upgrade them through the ages.

I'm not as in love with the Imperialistic trait; I think it's as weak as Protective, at least in comparison to the other traits. The cheap Settlers would be more of an advantage if the food contributing to their builds was doubled along with the hammers; and if you're warmongering, how many cities do you really need to found, anyway? If we do warmonger, though, the additional Great Generals will be helpful. Look for me to try to build the Great Wall if I have stone near the start; it has a good synergy with Imperialistic because it also increases GG generation.

Stonehenge is also attractive since it provides those +1 happy monuments, border expansion, and a Great Prophet or two. But Cyrus calls for early warmongering, so I don't want to get bogged down in builder mode. This is where the Expansive trait's sorta-cheap Settlers might
come in handy, allowing me to quickly get my early cities up and running so I can both build units and one or two early wonders. Frankly, I find Stonehenge helps with early warmongering, since you can avoid wasting turns and hammers on monuments and build barracks and units instead.

Speaking of units: Persia's unique unit, the Immortal, dove-tails nicely with a warmongering approach (even if it is historically inaccurate; the Immortals were infantry, not mounted units). It's an early UU that replaces the Chariot and gains several advantages over its ordinary counterpart: it has a higher withdrawal chance, making it more likely to survive battles, and it has a bonus against Archers, the AI's favourite early defensive unit. With bonuses against Archers AND Axemen, it's probably the best anti-barb unit in the game. I suspect the Immortal is going to prove as stellar a UU as Egypt's War Chariots.

Cyrus' starting techs are Agriculture and Hunting, both pre-requisites for Animal Husbandry. Since AH can be had more cheaply than usual, AND it enables the UU, I think researching it first right out of the gate is a no-brainer, with the second city claiming horses unless they appear in the capital's fat cross. The first build will likely be a Scout; starting with Hunting and Scouts means a greater chance of revealing more terrain (including more goody huts!).

Since Persia and Cyrus are, historically, one of the oldest civiliazations and one of the earliest great leaders, it makes sense that he starts strong. However, it also means, conversely, that many of his strengths peter out by mid-game. The UU becomes obsolete quickly, the advantages of cheap Settlers vanish, and the +1 happy from monuments go away with Calendar. As the game goes on Great Generals become more expensive and less frequent, and Charismatic's cheap promotions become more expensive for the veterans. Only the Broadcast Tower with its +1 happy is there as a late-game benefit for Cyrus (making the Eiffel Tower an extremely attractive late-game wonder). By the way, notice that Cyrus is another one of a handful of leaders, like Hannibal, who has no cheap buildings.

Cyrus has no built-in economic advantages, so that will have to be a constant focus. I anticipate a cottage economy since he's not Philosophical, but the map may dictate otherwise. Mid-game tech priorities will likely be Guilds (to upgrade the uber-promoted Immortals to Knights) and Military Tradition (to upgrade the uber-promoted Knights to Cavalry).

Guilds also enable the unique building, though I think it's a secondary consideration to Knights. The Apothecary doesn't exactly warm the cockles of my heart. Grocers already provide additional health with the right resources--which, if I've conquered the territory I intend to, I should already have. Besides, Expansive already has a per-city health boost, so the UB's health benefit will only likely kick in long after it gets built. Overall, then, I think the plan should be to research AH out of the gate, REX briefly to claim horses and found at least 4 decent cities, then go bang some heads. After that, once Cyrus' advantages start to peter out, we'll have to weigh the situation carefully and see what the best course of action is. With cheap great generals and XPs, though, I'm pre-disposed towards pursuing either a domination or conquest victory.
 
excellent write-up, i can't wait for the game to get started. i love these ALC games because they're the best way that i've learned how to use each leader effectively given their traits and the situation the game presents. they've also been helping a lot with improving my late game tactics which are very poor in comparison to my early/mid-game skills. thank you for these threads! i will be following intently
 
I can see the blood pooling at the feet of your immortals already! But you forgot one of the best features of immortals: They can fortify and receive defensive bonuses, which is huge. Outright they aren't as strong as Egypt's war chariots, but being allowed to fortify makes them more versatile.
 
that's an interesting point that you made about being able to fortify. that means you can focus solely on churning out immortals instead of having to build a few archers here and there to garrison your new cities until you want to switch it up with feudalism enabled longbowmen. if you pepper your stacks with axes here and there to take out any spearmen, you can pretty much walk all over the AI in the early game. i've found that the AI doesn't build many spearmen, if any, at all unless it's shaka whose impi can be handled by shock promoted axemen
 
The cheap Settlers would be more of an advantage if the food contributing to their builds was doubled along with the hammers;

Right. In fact, I think it's misleading to describe Imperialistic as "50% faster production of settlers." You get 50% more shields or 50% more production, but in practice they're probably only produced about 25% faster.

Look for me to try to build the Great Wall if I have stone near the start; it has a good synergy with Imperialistic because it also increases GG generation.

I think the extra experience is the weakest of The Great Wall's benefits. I usually just ignore it. The problem is that it only increases experience from combat within your borders. If you plan to be at all aggressive, then you're going to be taking the battle to the enemy, so you aren't likely to see much combat within your borders. If you're going to be more passive / defensive, then a little bit of extra experience really doesn't matter to your overall strategy. Build The Great Wall if you want to, but don't build it for the experience boost.

With bonuses against Archers AND Axemen, it's probably the best anti-barb unit in the game.

I'm trying to figure out why you slipped "probably" into that sentence. ;)

In fact, as I think about it further, I'd say only build The Great Wall if you have stone and want it for the engineers. The other benefit to The Great Wall is keeping out the barbarians, but as you said, you [probably] have the best anti-barb unit in the game, so why would you care about that? Stick with Stonehenge if you want a stone wonder.

Since AH can be had more cheaply than usual, AND it enables the UU, I think researching it first right out of the gate is a no-brainer,

It only half enables the unique unit. You also need The Wheel, which is not to say that you shouldn't prioritize Animal Husbandry. Just make sure you know what you're getting yourself into as far as building your first Immortal.

Besides, Expansive already has a per-city health boost, so the UB's health benefit will only likely kick in long after it gets built.

Yeah, except for one problem ... Cyrus isn't Expansive anymore. ;) You still probably won't be blocked by health problems at that stage of the game, but don't count on that extra 2 health.
 
A beeline to Animal Husbandry is a no-brainer here, and if they show up in your fat cross I'd be tempted to even go for an Immortal rush before even your second city if there is a close enemy. Even later on when the AIs have metal, as long as you cut off their metal and you lure out their Spearmen it shouldn't be too difficult to steamroll multiple civs before Longbows. Hell, you might even get away with hammering Longbowmen with hordes and hordes of Immortals -they are dirt cheap, after all.

Early domination sounds good here: abuse your early-game advantages to gain as much land as possible, and hopefully have the game finished before those advantages wear off.

The Oracle or Stonehenge would be excellent wonders here: The Oracle will give you CoL for Courthouses to help with REX, and Stonehenge will free up the build queues of your cities so that they can focus on pumping out Immortals.

A late-game approach to domination is buying your way to victory by beelining to Democracy and Cavalry if you have a cottage economy set up (and with early conquest you shouldn't be short of good cottageable land), turn off research and buy Cavalry until you win. This is very dependent on developing a strong economy early, however.

Having had some experience with playing Cyrus aggressively I hope to make more contributions to this ALC.
 
:goodjob: Its good to see that you recovered your morale easily :goodjob: . Not that it was anything to be ashamed of: You fought bravely on your last ALC, well beyond the scope of hope ( someone said that its in defeat that you can see of what a person is made of... ;) ).

About Cyrus, like you said, AH is a no brainer; you need to know where the horses are and to get them to smash some skulls under your Immortals four-feeted animals :lol: . I think that your master lines are correct: AH, horse city ( if needed ), maybe some REXing ( if needed ), and use the UU (if no Alex or Shaka nearby), grab land, cottage, CE, whatever ....

A question: You mention using the Immortals combined with axes. It wouldn't be better to use them in a pure Chariot rush fashion? Immortals are very vulnerable to spears ( not so much as the chariot, but...), but combining them with axes seems like a lot of wasted time ( BW, Cooper city (if needed), build/whip axes, Immortals keeping pace with axes... ).
 
Shaka and Alexander are two early neighbors we don't really want to see, but unless some catastrophe happens even they aren't too bad - typically there is only one source of metal, if any, at that point in the game, so it becomes the primary target during a war.

With that in mind, getting Writing early for Open Borders should probably be an early goal so you can scout enemy territory. I say this as if Sisiutil doesn't know, but he wrote the guides on warfare!

It's a shame Cyrus lost the Creative trait - Creative and Charismatic would be an amazing combo for early warmongering, and even more reason to pick up writing, which Persia's early techs already favor. Creative, Charismatic and Immortals would probably be too strong right out of the gate though - in that regard Imperialistic does seem like a direct nerf.
 
Nooooooo! Not Fractal! Anything but that.

We don't want a repeat of last time, do we?

I would suggest Continents, or Pangea, or something else.

Cheers.
 
Looking good. Cant wait to see what happens. Learned a lot from reading these ALC threads, so much that I recently had my first win on Prince level, with isabella.

Cyrus is one of my favourite leaders!
 
Nooooooo! Not Fractal! Anything but that.

We don't want a repeat of last time, do we?

In the thread for the previous game he said he lined up somebody to check the map for him to make sure it isn't total isolation or some other disaster. Of course, if you eliminate the isolated starts there's a lot less difference between Fractal and Continents, but I still think Fractal has slightly more interesting maps. There's a little more chance of interesting features like weird peninsulas, big lakes, etc.
 
Nooooooo! Not Fractal! Anything but that.

We don't want a repeat of last time, do we?

I would keep Fractal, but S must be aware... we need a B plan to use if isolated again. AT least Immortals are good anti-barb units....
 
Nooooooo! Not Fractal! Anything but that.

We don't want a repeat of last time, do we?

I would suggest Continents, or Pangea, or something else.

Cheers.
Don't worry, I'll be sending the initial save to Welnic before posting to ensure that I'm not isolated, which would be a complete waste with Cyrus. If I am, I'll re-roll.
 
Excellent to see you're back in the saddle after your first loss.
AH seems like a good first move, and with your hut-popping skills and a scout, you may be able to pop the wheel from a goody hut. Don't forget that if you want stonehenge, you need to research mysticism and for the great wall, masondry is required. Tha may force you to move away from military techs like BW, IW,HBR and construction, so make sure to plan ahead if you want you use these two wonders. Obviously, stone helps tremedously, so locate it and use either your faster-built settlers or Immortals to take it.:ar15:
Cheers and good luck!:goodjob:
 
Cyrus should keep his empire in a state of near-constant war and aim for a Conquest victory. Faster promotions and Great General production mean that the Persian army will be a highly promoted one.

Right off the bat research should be Animal Husbandry > The Wheel to uncover Horses, hook them up, and to be able to build Immortals. Your second city should be found next to Horses and Immortal production should begin immediately! While you're building up 6 or so Immortals to begin the attack, get Archery for defense, Pottery as a pre-req for Writing, and Mining > Bronze Working for access to copper and slavery (for more Immortals ).

Hopefully by this time you've eliminated at least one civ from the game. I would keep only the capital & any high-pop cities they have, and self settle any other cities you might need close to home to control maintenance costs. Techwise, Mysticism for the Monument's extra happy face should probably come next as you should then go Writing > Alphabet to be able to extort some techs for peace.

With any luck, you'll be able to wipe out up to 3 civs by the time defenses make it too expensive to continue to try and take high-culture cities without catapults. What you can still do, though, is use the Immortals to raze smaller, outlying cities, research Math > Construction and set-up smaller axemen-catapult stacks to provide the firepower needed to get these larger cities.

Personally, I would then go Currency > Code of Laws > Civil Service for the boost that Bureaucracy will bring to your economy and production at the capital. From there, it's back to the botom of the tech tree for more military techs: Iron Working, Engineering and Guilds. While you are down there, if the map requires it, head for Optics for the circum-nav bonus, and then use Liberalism to snag Astronomy (remember you'll need Calendar first!) for boats to continue/end the warring

A final thing to consider for play as Cyrus is a specialtist-based economy, even though he's not Philosophical. Why? First off, an economy built on farms is damged less by pillaging. Also, Persia's UB, the Apothecary, replaces the Grocer, and this, along with a Market, opens up 4 spaces for Merchant specialists. The war machine is going to need money, and this is a good and, more importantly, safe way to keep it flowing. Finally, a specialist economy is stronger in the early game compared to cottage-based commerce. If you go this route, then be sure to capture the Pyramids to run Representation!
 
I wouldn't worry about stonehenge. You'll want your early cities to produce a monument for the cultural advantage, and they will be at nowhere near their happyness cap when settles, so you will have time before you need the increase in happyness.

I would also skip the great wall as it only gives you bonuses within your borders, and I don't expect you to be fighting there alot. Since you have a great anti-barbian unit whom you want to get some xp, the great wall will actually act counter to this.

In your shoes, I think I would bypass guilds and go straight for the liberalism/nationalism combo so you can get cavalry online right away. This let's you skip a tech path until you want to backfill, and will save you money on upgrading (avoiding the base 20 gold cost per unit one time).

Definately go for animal handling, as you want horses for your UU.

Make sure you're getting the most use out of charismatic by working that extra cottage or running that specialist. That bonus never goes away, and while it's not as strong as philosophical or financial, it is still very leveragable.

Good luck, I'm looking forward to this.
 
@heffling
Concerning Stonehenge:
It's not so much about the happiness as it is about the culture. Since Cyrus lost his creative trait, and you're going to early war, culture is important to begin popping borders and to begin the assimilation:assimilate:
On guilds:
again, a case of seeing the trees in the forest. Guilds also give us our UB, no matter how useless and it takes a LOT of gold to upgrade those Immortals all the way to calvary(Immortal-Horse Archer-Knight-Calvary) And cyrus doesn't exactly have a trait built for building(no pun intended). Knights are a useful unit to go to war with, because they're fast and ignore first strikes, the power of the longbowman.
 
@heffling
Concerning Stonehenge:
It's mot so much about the happiness as it is about the culture. Since Cyrus lost his creative trait, and you're going to early war, culture is important to begin popping borders and to begin the assimilation:assimilate:
On guilds:
again, a case of seeing the trees in the forest. Guilds also give us our UB, no matter how useless and it takes a LOT of gold to upgrade those Immortals all the way to calvary(Immortal-Horse Archer-Knight-Calvary) And cyrus doesn't exactly have a trait built for building(no pun intended). Knights are a useful unit to go to war with, because they're fast and ignore first strikes, the power of the longbowman.
Don't forget that Knights are the only true counter to Crossbowmen or, if we're up against the Chinese, those formidable CKNs.
 
Re: Stongehenge - I've been saying it over the aelf's current challenge with Churchill, but the happiness boost from Monuments dissapears after Calendar if they are via Stonehenge. If the monument is built individually it remains. If there are a lot of happy calendar resources around, it's not such a big deal, but if happiness is in short supply then keeping the monuments around is more valuable - at that stage you'd be happy to pay 45 hammers for 1 happiness.

I'm interested to see how these two challenges play out - both Cyrus and Churchill are charismatic and don't have anything going for them economically besides the +1 happy face. That really leaves managing the economy up to the skill of the player (and the map he's given).

--------
Re: Specialists. It could be a game that sees a repeat of the GM economy, and conquest is not a bad option to consider. With no economic traits and a UB that doesn't help much in that regard, a lot of cities should be razed any only choice spots taken. Keeping a mounted army means you will be able to move from battlefield to battlefield fairly easily.

Speaking of the UB and Guilds, this is an ALC so I'd like to see it used, even if it turns out not to be the "best" play. Doing so allows us to draw conclusions from the result, like in the Hannibal game where the UU turned out to be not that important. Part of the ALC series is seeing how each leaders' characteristics define them. Maybe it means we don't beeline for Grocers, but they shouldn't be ignored.

Finally, look to grab the most profitable cities by settling them with Imperialistic's cheaper settlers or by capturing them. That means precious metals and large rivers are juicy targets. Much like with Egypt there is a danger of building a ton of units and suffering from troop unkeep and city maintenance costs. Don't be afraid to raze and come back later.

If the empire does get stretched thin with a few cities, far apart, with lots of fog, then the Great Wall starts to look attractive.
 
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