Age of discovery

Well, if the records are limited, it's hard to get a full picture. It's also unclear that news would spread faster than disease.* If one Caribbean population traded with another Caribbean population and either didn't mention it or did mention it but the mainland population that traded with them did not, then it's fairly simple not to spread the news while still spreading disease.

* Although, if I return to the ever handy Bubonic Plague, word of the disease certainly spread faster than the disease itself because people were aware of its existence in China before it hit Europe.

I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm saying I doubt it for want of evidence on that one.

It's obvious that by a certain point news of Europeans aced ahead of the Europeans themselves, but I'm doubtful it happened that early.

As to the Bubonic plague, I think there's some amount of risk in equating plagues like that. They have entirely different transmission methods, degrees of contagion and so forth, incubation periods, etc, and what happened with one simply may not happen for the other.
 
The point is that it's not a case of immune people mixing with non-immune people, it's a case of people who are killed in their millions by diseases mixing with people who are killed in their millions by diseases. Why this practically wiped out one group but not the other is not a question of biology.

Yes, because twenty years of exposure is exactly the same as thousands.

Define "a few". In North America, at least, we seem to be looking at smallpox, chickenpox, influenza, yellow fever, measles, malaria, typhus, typhoid and bubonic plague all pretty early on. There's enough variety there to have a brutal epidemic every few years, and by the time you've workd down the list, it's time to start again. Some epidemics did cause catastrophic mortality, yes, but usually among communities which had already been hit by disease, so this isn't infecting healthy, well-fed people, it's hitting sick people who are struggling to keep their way of life together.

I'm not debating that there were multiple diseases, nor that people were probably weakened by it, in the end. I'm saying it's not entirely about timing, as continuing high mortality rates through and after the initial period of contact tend to show. The pandemic of 1780 was unusually lethal when you compare it with similar pandemics in the old world.

(For the record, though, some of those diseases aren't ones you should be listing when we're considering continent-wide scales. Malaria, typhoid, and yellow fever don't mean a whole lot to Mapuches or Ojibwe.)

This is where the point about history comes into it again, though: the period 1519-39 in Mexico was not business as usual except a bunch of people happened to get sick, it was a period of turmoil and upheaval. Civil war and invasion exacerbate disease as the always do; additionally, the high mortality rate is linked to the Mexican dependence upon certain labour-intensive systems of agriculture that couldn't be sustained. We don't see a >50% mortality rate (80% is at higher end of common estimates, not a consensus view) because Indians were always going to die at that rate, we see it because of when, where and how the epidemic came about.

I would seriously question a lot of assertions here. Other parts of the globe used similarly high-labor agricultural systems (for example, rice agriculture in China) which were not impacted in the same way. Moreover, I'd buy it if you could show that somehow the populations were impacted to the point where agriculture simply couldn't be practiced on the same scale, but that's not really what we see in Mexico. We're not talking being reduced to a thinned out countryside right away here; kill 30-50% of the Mexica and you still have a quite densely populated area. Certain practices might be abandoned, but you'll still have enough people to practice, y'know, agriculture. If you want to make this argument about the same place, but later down the line, I'm all on board. I just don't see it being a significant factor in the initial few years.

And it's a bit disingenuous to just explain it all away as "local turmoil"; it's not as if turmoil never accompanied pandemics elsewhere in the world (in fact, it's kind of a constant).

(If you're referring to the initial epidemics only, by the way, 50% is still abnormally high for even a first-in-a-generation epidemic of smallpox, but pretty much the norm for peoples-without-diseases epidemics.)

Biology is certainly a factor, but like Flying Pig says, it's not a sufficient explanation. It tells us how people died, but not why.

I'm not sure what distinction you're trying to make here. The biological factor certainly explains how and why in such large amounts.

I'm not being demographically deterministic here. There were a few Native societies who adapted quite well, and some who straight-up took advantage of the lower population densities post epidemic.* But populations took a pretty hefty hit, and even in areas where you'd expect them to be able to start maintaining a solid disease reservoir (like, say, Central Mexico, where you can have a 95% population reduction and still end up with somewhere between 500,000 and 1,000,000 people), they continued to shrink long after the initial waves of diseases had hit.



*Must. Resist. Urge. To rant about research topic.
 
North King said:
Moreover, as Jared Diamond would probably be quick to point out, it's not exactly a racial thing to point out that people who have developed in the absence of animal-sourced diseases for thousands of years don't have an immune system particularly geared to fighting animal-sourced diseases. It's sort of the same way that you can argue the high prevalence of sickle-cell anemia in West African populations is a genetic adaptation to the disease cocktail there (that gave them a significant survival edge in the tropics, for that matter), and it's not like I'm being racist to whites.

Native Europeans were also decimated by the same kinds of animal-sourced diseases, which came to Europe together with the Neolithic Revolution and later, from the Middle East and from Central Asia.

In the transition period from the Mesolithic to the Neolithic there was mass immigration to Europe from the Middle East and maybe also from Central Asia, which in the end changed the genetic structure of the continent so much that about 2/3 up to 3/4 of Neolithic population of Europe were descendants of those new immigrants, rather than of older (Mesolithic) Europeans.

This is illustrated by new publication on this subject (from September 2014) by Lazaridis et. al., titled "Ancient human genomes suggest three ancestral populations for present-day Europeans".

What we can see is that during the Mesolithic period 74% of inhabitants of Europe were carriers of mtDNA haplogroup U, whereas Neolithic samples show a sharp decline of this haplogroup to just 20% (and modern frequency is 12%):



Similar pattern is observed in case of Y-DNA haplogroups, but in this cases much smaller samples are available.

Today we have only very few samples of Mesolithic Y-DNA (a dozen or so), but between 86% and 92% of this Mesolithic Y-DNA in Europe belonged to haplogroup I. Whereas in modern Europe only around 17% (average for the continent) belong to this haplogroup - including all of its variants (I2, I1 and ancestral I). In modern Germany frequency of haplogroup I is slightly above average - 24% - but still much lower when we compare it to Mesolithic human remains discovered in territory which now constitutes Germany (out of 5 samples from Germany, 100% belonged to haplogroup I):



Lazaridis et. al., "Ancient human genomes suggest three ancestral populations for present-day Europeans", September 2014:

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v513/n7518/full/nature13673.html
 
The point is that it's not a case of immune people mixing with non-immune people, it's a case of people who are killed in their millions by diseases mixing with people who are killed in their millions by diseases. Why this practically wiped out one group but not the other is not a question of biology.

Yes it is a question of biology, one we have answers to. Are you not aware of that? Should I summon a biologist or two to explain?
 
Perhaps I should rephrase. It's as much a question of biology as asking why the Black Death killed so many people, or why AIDS continues to kill so many people. Yes, people die of AIDS because it compromises their immune system and leaves them open to be killed by usually trivial infections. But part of the answer to that question has got to be that most sufferers don't have access to HIV medication, don't have the education to know to get themselves tested, can't or won't use contraception, and so on. Reducing it purely to biology, to come back to the Americas, removes any blame from the Europeans; it's as if they couldn't have done anything to stop the natives from being wiped out because the natives were naturally too weak to fend off the diseases that they brought. It also removes all agency from the natives, because they were doomed by their feeble biology regardless of any other factors.
 
http://local.disia.unifi.it/livi/pubblicazioni/depopulation-of-hispanic-america.pdf

In the Americas, contact with Europe brought new diseases: smallpox,
measles, diphtheria, rubella, and mumps among them. These are called
“crowd diseases” because domesticated animals living in herds and in close
contact with sedentary populations are believed to have developed their
viruses and eventually passed them to humans. Diamond writes that “Eurasian
crowd diseases evolved out of diseases of Eurasian herd animals that
became domesticated. Whereas many such animals existed in Eurasia, only
five animals of any sort became domesticated in the Americas: the turkey
in Mexico and the U.S. Southwest, the llama/alpaca and the guinea pig in
the Andes, the Muscovy duck in tropical South America, and the dog
throughout the Americas” (Diamond 1997: 212–213). These animals did
not live in enormous flocks or herds and did not come into frequent physical
contact with humans. In any case there were fewer opportunities for
the development of diseases and for their transmission to humans, whose
settlement in the Western Hemisphere was also relatively late.9 For these
reasons, many Eurasian and African diseases did not exist in America (or in
Oceania), and its natives lacked the immunity that develops with a long
exposure to infection with them. They were “virgin soil” populations

Example that luck and chance are important in history:

Elsewhere (Livi-Bacci 2005) I have shown that the probability that an
infectious adult would board a ship bound for Hispaniola was on the order
of 2 percent a year. This result derives from a simple arithmetic exercise
that considers the population of the province of Seville (500,000 inhabitants
at the beginning of the sixteenth century) from which most sailors and
travelers came[16] and assumes that in that population smallpox was endemic
as in other large urban areas of Europe and was causing 10 percent of all
deaths, of which only 5 percent were deaths to adults (since smallpox, where
endemic, was a children’s disease); that every year 16 ships with an average
load of 45 adults would travel to Hispaniola; and that it was unlikely an
infected person with the easily detectable marks of smallpox would be allowed
on board. This exercise yields, as I said, a probability of 2 percent and
therefore, using the simplest of models, implies an average waiting time of
1 Π 0.02 = 50 years before a person carrying the infection would set foot on
board a Hispaniola-bound ship.17 This probability must be multiplied by the
probability of the start of a chain transmission on board and by the probability
that an infectious passenger disembarking would ignite the epidemic.
These two probabilities were certainly very high, but lower than 1, so that
the total probability would be further decreased below 2 percent, and the
theoretical waiting time for the first smallpox epidemic to explode in
Hispaniola would be longer than 50 years. I conclude, then, that the
Tainos were unlucky: they contracted smallpox 26 years after Columbus,
and not 50 or more years later, as the elementary model predicts.

Origin of wifes of Spanish colonists in 2 of 14 districts of Hispaniola (Concepción and Puerto Plata) in year 1514:

186 Spaniards specified the origin of their wives: 121 (65 percent) were Castilian and 65 (35 percent) were natives

Looks like the history of the Mestizos started very early on.

But here is the consequence for the native inhabitants of Spaniards taking native wifes:

The loss of Taino women from the native reproductive pool—one-sixth
of them, according to the repartimiento—reduced reproductive potential significantly.
But this would not affect the child–woman ratio (0.281 in Table 2),
which was extremely low. Such a ratio would occur in a stable population
declining at an annual rate of 3.5 percent.[21] Unusually high infant and
child mortality, or unusually low fertility, or a combination of the two, could
be responsible for the low child–woman ratio—there is no way to tell. However,
many contemporary observers commented upon the scarcity of children,
the fruitless unions, the consequences of the forcible separation of
women from their husbands, and the like. Legislation was intended to protect
women, prohibiting them from working in the mines or engaging in
farming activities when pregnant or raising children below the age of three.
But these laws were made in Spain and were implemented half a world
away by greedy masters under the weak supervision of island officials. Natives
working in the mines were separated from their families for eight or
more months of the year.
The extremely low Taino reproductive rates can be explained by the
geographic and social dislocation of the community. While the violent campaigns
of conquest and “pacification” undoubtedly took a heavy toll, it was
dislocation that produced an irreversible decline. Contemporaries saw the
continuous shifting of the population from one place to another as one of
the major causes of the island’s depopulation. This constant dislocation caused
hunger, disease, and mortality, but it also caused a separation and weakening
of family and clan ties. Marital unions were more difficult and precarious
and fertility declined. Living conditions deteriorated, survival conditions
worsened, and new diseases (before smallpox), while maybe not responsible
for major epidemics, certainly added complexity to the island’s microbial
world and increased its mortality. Not only the economic and social systems
but, with them, the demographic system of the Tainos collapsed. Neither
the Black Legend, with its exceptional cruelty, nor the “virgin soil” paradigm,
with its disease-related mortality, is required to explain the extinction
of the Tainos. The disruptive effects of conquest were sufficient cause.

Interesting point of view and theory.

===============================================

On the issue of smallpox spreading with or without Spanish help:

Did smallpox precede the conquerors? Peru
Did smallpox strike Peru before the arrival of Europeans? This hypothesis
has achieved the status of an incontrovertible historical event. But the foundations
of the theory of a Peruvian epidemic in the 1520s—years before Pizarro
set foot in the country—are, at best, weak. Let us review the trail of smallpox
after its certain arrival in Santo Domingo in December 1518 (Figure 1). It
spread immediately to nearby Puerto Rico and then to Cuba; in April or May
of 1520 it was carried to Mexico by Narvaez’s expedition, sent by the governor
of Cuba to restrain the independent and successful Cortés. It was in
Cempoala (near Veracruz) that “when the companions of Narvaez landed,
there was also a black man sick of smallpox who infected those who had
given hospitality to him in their house, and then an Indio passed it to another
Indio; because many slept and ate together, the plague propagated in
such a short time that it continued to kill throughout the region” (López de
Gómara [1552]2001: 233). Smallpox traveled inland to Tepeaca and Tlaxcala
and finally reached the valley of Mexico in September–October and struck
Tenochtitlán, killing Cuitláhuac, successor to Montezuma. It raged for two
months in the valley and then wore off, traveling to Chalco (Sahagún
[1938]1977: 136–137). The Spaniards were certainly helped in the siege of
Tenochtitlán by the disarray caused by the epidemic. The continuation of its
path is uncertain, although it is plausible the disease diffused to the rest of
Mexico through the radial web of the trading routes departing from
Tenochtitlán. It may have reached Yucatan; Diego de Landa, writing in the
1560s, refers to a disastrous plague that had hit the country “more than 50
years before,” which could have been smallpox (Landa [1881]1968: 57).
Did smallpox continue its course southward, to Central America, the
Caribbean mainland, and beyond? High mortality was recorded in Guatemala,
in 1519–21, before the expedition of Pedro de Alvarado. The only
certainty derives from a 1527 document stating that slaves had to be brought
to Panama, Nata, and the port of Honduras because smallpox had decimated
the Indians (Newson 1986: 128). Is it true to say that in Panama historical
evidence ends? “Southward in the great Andean cordillera that stretches
along the entire western coast of South America, the heartland of the great
Inca Empire, the first great smallpox pandemic ravaged Amerindian peoples.
As in the example of Aztec Mexico, where the ruler Cuitláhuac succumbed
to the foreign infection, the Inca ruler Huayna Capac fell victim to a hideous
alien disease” (Cook 1998: 72). Huayna Capac died, presumably, between
1525 and 1527; a long and furious civil war followed between two
of his sons: Huascar, his legitimate heir in Cuzco; and Atahualpa, lord of
Quito. When Pizarro took Atahualpa prisoner in Cajamarca, the conflict
was practically over, with Huascar’s final defeat following shortly after. What
the Spaniards found was a population exhausted by a long war. Had it, like
Mexico, also been depleted by smallpox?
The historical evidence is very thin, being primarily based on the accounts
of the death of Huayna Capac written by Juan de Betanzos and Cieza
de León a quarter-century after the event (Cook 1998: 76). Both of them
had a wide experience of Peru and are credible witnesses of the Peruvian
events. Betanzos does not mention the word “smallpox” but talks about
“sarna” and “lepra,” cutaneous diseases that others have interpreted as “verruga
peruana” (Bartonellosis), an indigenous disease transmitted by the
sandfly.22 Cieza de León mentions smallpox (viruela) and adds that the contagion
killed 200,000 people (Cieza de León [1880]1988: 194). Betanzos
and Cieza had to rely on the native accounts of past events; moreover, the
definition of diseases, when not based on the direct observation of symptoms,
was often generic. It is an attractive hypothesis that a single smallpox
pandemic, initiated in the Caribbean and continuing in Mexico and perhaps
Central America, would cross the isthmus and spread to South
America—or, alternatively, could reach the Atlantic coast of South America
by sea—undermining the great Inca Empire. Attractive does not mean plausible,
however. This hypothesis postulates that smallpox could travel thousand
of miles spreading by face-to-face contact, through lands sparsely
settled, in humid climates and surviving the rainy seasons (the virus does
not thrive in humid climates), over mountain chains and deserted stretches
of land. Epidemiologists would characterize this hypothesis as improbable,
if not impossible. And until new evidence is gathered, smallpox must be
absolved of guilt for such an early South American catastrophe.

Hmmmm. Any counterarguments?

Maybe it spread by boats along the coast of the Pacific, not "over mountain chains and deserted stretches".
 
The discussion on diseases is really interesting, but I will go back to the opening post.

I'm not really sure it really matters who have step their feet the first on some territory, what matters is what have been done out of it, and even more importantly, why something has been done out of it.

I'm personnaly getting fascinated about the first explorations of the Portuguese in the very early 15th century. At that stage in the Human History, the Arabs still rule the global trade: trans-Saharan caravans trust exchanges between Subsaharan Africa and the Mediterranean world ; the silk road unites trade between China, India, the Arab World and Europe.

At that period of time, the Arab world is still the most advanced civilization, and Europe doesn't particularly distinguish itself from many other fascinating civilizations accross the world. So the question is how things suddenly changed, and why that change came from Europe and not elsewhere.

This all comes from the fact that Portugal, which just conqueered the key harbor of Ceuta in 1415, couldn't really benefit from it as trade to the city was still dependent on supply from trans-Saharan caravans. Of course the idea to bypass the Arabs through the Seas could sound good, but since the Roman times, sea trade down the Cape Chaunar (on the Moroccan coast at the level of the Canary islands) has never been possible because of the strong streams in the area preventing a safe return.

And here's where things are getting interesting. The Portuguese indeed had at the time boats to fish cods in the High Seas and come back safely. It is thanks to those boats that they could finally get enough westward from Cape Chaunar to avoid the strong stream and come back in all security to Europe. And this is how sea exploration, the age of discovery, all started.

What's interesting to me here is that there was a clear economical incentive at first: bypassing the Arab monopoly on trans-Saharan trade. Later as you all know the potential will become even bigger with the idea to find a new route to India. For that trade purpose, they will adapt their cod fishing boats and make of them carracks and caravels, which means vessels adapted to travel accross the High Seas. Christopher Columbus hasn't invented anything... no matter how brave he was, he was just a sailor among many others exploring the world with those new toys.

Now don't forget that at first, the only incentive was economical, and Columbus expedition has only been financed to find a new path to India. If Spain settled in the Americas, it was only the time needed to find the passage making it possible to continue the road westward to India.

And here goes the unbelievable story of Hernan Cortes and the conquest of Mexico. How dudes coming from a distant medieval Europe could come with only a handful of guys and take control of something as huge as the Aztec Empire is something phenomenal when you really think about it. Of course, we know that this is largely the result of disease, you've talked about it in details (there are other things so but I won't start on that), but it was something that couldn't be forecasted by anyone at the time. And it's only once Mexico was conqueered that Spain has started to consider America could offer its own commercial opportunites, different from those established before.

And here goes the great History. Europe slowly took control of transcontinental trade, leaving the Arab World in a severe crisis it never really handled. This will lead Europe to 4 centuries of golden age untill the 20th century.

There's been many explorers accross the world who discovered many unknown territories. Phoenicians, Vikings, Chinese... the key difference was only about the economical incentive to stay and settle in the territories discovered. Explorers aren't responsible of that. Some of them which have lead such a legacy are remembered, others who have not are forgotten.
 
As was mentioned on previous page, population continued to decline also long after first contact.

For example in 1602 population of Peru was just 2/3 of 1573 level (see Table 3 in the link I provided in previous post).

In the same link there is also data from four regions which shows that by years 1558, 1562 and 1572 populations there were already reduced to 1/4 or 1/5 of pre-conquest level (one exception is the region of Chucuito where population in 1567 was still 75% of the pre-conquest level).

But that "pre-conquest" level could be from around 1530 - so it could be after the plague which killed Huayna Capac and many others.

All in all it seems that by year 1600 population was perhaps at best 15% (10% - 20%) of the pre-conquest level.

This if we assume that size of a "tributary" was the same in both periods (if pre-conquest tributaries were more numerous, then decline was even larger).

So population reduction by 80% between 1500 and 1600 is the most optimistic possible scenario. Anything from 80% upwards was the real decline.
 
Perhaps I should rephrase. It's as much a question of biology as asking why the Black Death killed so many people, or why AIDS continues to kill so many people. Yes, people die of AIDS because it compromises their immune system and leaves them open to be killed by usually trivial infections. But part of the answer to that question has got to be that most sufferers don't have access to HIV medication, don't have the education to know to get themselves tested, can't or won't use contraception, and so on. Reducing it purely to biology, to come back to the Americas, removes any blame from the Europeans; it's as if they couldn't have done anything to stop the natives from being wiped out because the natives were naturally too weak to fend off the diseases that they brought. It also removes all agency from the natives, because they were doomed by their feeble biology regardless of any other factors.

I don't think anyone here is reducing it to pure biology. The commander of British forces in North America during the Seven Years War saw to that.

But that aside, I think you're ignoring the fact that we just said, in our posts, that there were Natives who adapted to the situation remarkably well, given the circumstances. It's not inevitable. It's just really frickin' difficult.
 
Maybe it spread by boats along the coast of the Pacific, not "over mountain chains and deserted stretches".
First thing, the Incas had an extensive road network starting North at Quito and directly connecting the whole Empire. Roads mean regular trade, thus contacts. So if the disease reached Quito, that would be already enough to make it reach Cuzco.

Now from Panama to Quito, there are still 600 miles which I recognize is a lot. But it was not an empty region at the time. The Muiscas were ruling the Rio Magdalena Valley in today's Colombia, the river could be a natural route connection to the Inca territory. The Muiscas were relatively advanced with an economy mastering agriculture, metalworking and manufacturing. So it doesn't sound totally impossible they had regular trade exchange with the Incas.

This reduces the distance from Panama to only 300 miles... but once again, the region between Panama and Colombia was peopled by the Guaymis, it wasn't empty.

Overall, I have difficulties to imagine that the civilizations from Central America and those from the Andes developped totally autonomously without exchanges between both. I just remember that Europe exchanges indirectly with China through the silk road since the Ancient times... and this without being necessarily fully aware of it.

Of course we have no evidence of that... but I wouldn't discard it and make it impossible just because of that lack of evidence.
 
North King said:
Pretty much all the recent scholarship agrees on a roughly 90-98% mortality rate in the first 20 or so years after contact

That's an exaggeration. Mortality from smallpox was never that high. But in case of natives mortality during the "virgin soil" strike was increased by fact that pretty much everyone was infected and there was noone healthy left to take care of the sick, etc. That's what written sources say.

So probably many who had smallpox died from starvation and other similar things, rather than from smallpox itself.

In case of Europeans adults were immune to smallpox and they could take care of sick chidlren.
 
There were certainly limited exchanges, with intermediaries, at the very least, I'm almost positive artifacts exchange have been identified.

Whether there was anything on a bigger scale, or the kind of trade that would make disease transfer a foregone conclusion (it's possible even with more limited contacts, but the more frequent the contact the more likely the transfer), that's a whole other question on which I,m not aware of much evidence either way.
 
Yea the question of Andean-Mesoamerican trade is a big one. And there have been artefacts recovered from both centers that suggest some small exchange (things like jade, gold, some bird feathers, shells, etc. ie). But at the same time it seems apparent there wasn't really extensive trade either, or things like cacao, llamas, corn, quinoa, etc. should have become more prevalent in either center.

Then again, look at Europe in the 11th-14th centuries - Venice and Genoa got rich off of eastern trade but if compared to Europe as a whole, the amount of commodities that came into Europe from the east was relatively tiny. If European civilization had been mostly destroyed in say the 13th century and if written records were destroyed, it would be equally hard for archaeologists/historians to have said there was trade between Europe and the east for Oriental goods. There have been several proposed trading state equivalents in the Americas (the Chachapoya ie) which we have some evidence of small exchange [and in these trading locations its where we find most of the remaining fragments of suspected trade]. Its hard to prove the level of exchange either way however without written record.
 
It actually probably developed there independently.
 
I think he's saying that the ancestor was just in Mesoamerica, not the Andes. He may indeed be right. I've read previously that there are subtle genetic differences between the corn of the Andes and the corn of Mesoamerica that suggest they developed separately. Certainly, it would explain why other domesticated flora and fauna of the Andes (potatoes, quinoa, llamas) didn't make it elsewhere. However, I can't find it in the source I thought I read it in.

It is weird that corn and nothing else made the journey.
 
I think he's saying that the ancestor was just in Mesoamerica, not the Andes. He may indeed be right. I've read previously that there are subtle genetic differences between the corn of the Andes and the corn of Mesoamerica that suggest they developed separately. Certainly, it would explain why other domesticated flora and fauna of the Andes (potatoes, quinoa, llamas) didn't make it elsewhere. However, I can't find it in the source I thought I read it in.

It is weird that corn and nothing else made the journey.
Considering that the whole area from Mesoamerica to the Andes developped agriculture (i.e. the ability to feed more than oneself), I simply cannot imagine there wasn't regular trade over the region, through intermediaries of course. I haven't read extensive litterature about the conquest of Peru, but from what I know, Pizarro didn't land in Tumbes at random. He knew about the Inca Empire, who told him about it?

I hardly see how the idea of totally separated worlds between the Andes and Mesoamerica could hold.
 
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