Slow late game

Hi all,

I've been reading this forum for about a year now and I would like to thank all regular posters for their insightful advise and suggestions.

I typically play on the Emperor level and I can usually win at whatever victory setting I try. I have about 400 or so hours of experience and I really do love this game.

I do have one large complaint about the game and I was wondering if anyone else shared my opinion, I find the late game to be boring and rather tedious.

Usually my favorite part of any game is the first 150 turns or so, scrambling to get those vital early wonders, trying to find and spread a religion, fighting off an early attack by unfriendly neighbors (I'm looking at you Monty). And of course exploring the map.

Compared to this the late game doesn't seem to hold up its end of things. I can typically handle diplomacy well enough so that I don't get involved in many wars (I prefer to play peacefully and build). While the late game wonders can be pretty cool it doesn't seem to me like they have the same impact that the early game wonders have. I also find the late game combat (with the exception of naval combat) to be less enjoyable than in the early game.

So I was wondering if anyone has any suggestions to fix this? Is there a way that I can change my play style to experience a more robust late game? Or will I have to wait for another expansion? It seems to me that G&K focuses mostly on the renaissance and the early parts of the game, with the exception of espionage.

PS,
Sorry if this post rambles a bit, civ is such a complex game its difficult to explain my experiences in one post!

I can see where you're coming from, but I'm just the opposite. I feel rushed early and like it is just a way to get to the fun part of the game better or worse off than other civs. I'll tell how I see the late game.

As you get into the industrial and later eras, you can start to use mounted units, as pikemen are a thing of the past and lancers aren't as good, and armored units, which can stand up to infantry units better and have a more specialized counter.

With the rise of the mobile mounted/armored unit, you also get your air units and naval warfare becomes more important, even for a land based invasion. That means a lot more options and things to consider as the game goes on. When nukes start to come, it gets more interesting still, since civs start to have the power to severely damage or wipe out enemy cities and armies. That makes not just war, but diplomacy more interesting and high stakes too.

Late game also sees the rush to resources that you see early, but it's a bit different since most lands is settled. Getting oil, uranium, coal, and aluminum is more interesting than settling a city near it, though. You generally have to fight, trade, or get CS allies for them, making it the more interesting resource rush.

I find the late game to be the fun part of the game. It's the early game I just go though for the fruits you get for the late game, which is the part I actually find worth playing for.

Hi,

I have the same feeling, love the early game and find the late game boring.

I think the main reason is that in early game every little decision feels important, in late game, it don't. If you warrior dies, you complete a city state quest, make a trade or discover a natural wonder makes a big difference. Usually sometime in the renaissance/industrial, you know if you are going to win or not. Rest of the game game is just routine tasks to get you there: Choosing whether to build library or market in your 9th city; capturing another worthless puppet; refueling city state influence with cash. This is just not exciting enough if you are going to win/loose any way.

I usually play on Immortal. Early game I am behind everybody trying to catch up. Sometimes I get rushed or end up to far behind of other reasons. But if I don't, I always catch up in the renaissance era and then totally steamrolls everybody else. Late game: tons of gold, ally every city state, one era ahead in tech, gets every wonder. Then its just to pic a victory condition. I usually pic diplomatic because it ends the game fastest. Deity is way to difficult (if I don't pic Polynesia on tiny island, or some other game-breaker).

I have found some solutions that make the late game more enjoyable and less slow though:

-Micromanagement is boring. Make your own rule to don't micro citizens and to automate all workers from the renaissance era and forward. This is just like increasing the difficulty half a step. You only have to care for the big, important and fun decisions.

-Balance the difficulty throughout the eras. Late game is to easy, and early game to hard. Move up one difficulty level and give yourself equal starting conditions as the AI. I usually remove the AI, staring techs, workers and settler or give me the same conditions. Doing this on deity gives roughly the same difficulty as on Immortal but gives a more even struggle through the whole game. This can be done by the "world-builder mod", don't remember the name now.

-Play smaller maps. This way you don't have to go on an enormous conquest campaign over several continent with routine tactics to win a domination victory. It also feels irrelevant and overwhelming to keep track on diplomacy with many civs that is really far away.

-Play on quick speed. I have always played on standard speed and sometimes epic. Recently tried quick and is newer switching back. More dynamic, more action, AI handles it better, every decision is more important.

-Less CS, more AI. On the standard settings, there are to many CS to handle in a fun way in the late game. You don't keep track on them, do extra efforts for quest, just put in extra money when the warning comes. With less of them, each become more important. I like to have one CS per player. Then I also increase the number of players by 1-2 (on small map) so we don't get to much free space for expansion.

-Start in a later era? I have never tried it, will do that next time.

I hope it was of some help. Every body has their play-style, some like huge 20h+ games but I don't. I like it to be fast, tight and challenging from the first to the last turn. These tricks has done it for me and made me rediscover the fun in Civ, especially the late game. Have been playing since Civ 1 and still love the series (350h in Civ 5). This is my first forum post here though. Been lurking for too long now.

Another tip: Try the FF boardgame. It is fantastic, my favorite Civ-game. Works really good with people new to the series and independent of number of players 2-5 (with expansion).
http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/77130/sid-meiers-civilization-the-board-game

To be honest I think the enjoyment of the late game is severely diminished if you're already winning by a wide margin. Most games I win you can see it coming from miles away... a civ botches a war here, another stalls it's growth there and before you know it you're left hitting the enter key like it's a chore.

The difference is when the AI is more dangerous and provides a real challenge. Obviously this is gonna happen more on higher difficulties, however the only problem with difficulties higher than emperor is that you sacrifice part of the early game "fun" i.e. being able to grab the wonders you want and "easily" beat up your neighbors, and instead swap it for a real challenge in the late game racing for those last advantages!

To Summarise: Maybe try playing on Immortal more often, It's just about making it through all those lost wonders with your sanity intact in time to actually enjoy the progress that comes afterward

Well I agree with you Rooftrellen about how enjoyable the late game scramble for resources can be. But ultimately I feel this does not compare to the early game land grabbing.

I completely agree with Kennan about decisions feeling more important in the early game. Getting the right wonder in the early eras can completely change the game. Getting a wonder in the late game rarely feels as satisfying as successfully rushing the Great Library or Stonehenge.

Thank you all for the suggestions on how to speed up late game play, my next run through I think I will play on the quick game speed at immortal level and see if that improves things.

A question for all relating to Kennan's advice: do automated workers build improvements over your existing improvements? I've never automated workers because I don't trust the AI (for good reason), but I'd like to know whether the workers are just going to make goofy choices or whether automated workers will actually override my good choices.

Dogmouth said:

A question for all relating to Kennan's advice: do automated workers build improvements over your existing improvements? I've never automated workers because I don't trust the AI (for good reason), but I'd like to know whether the workers are just going to make goofy choices or whether automated workers will actually override my good choices.

Click to expand...

You can choose this option "workers don't replace old improvements" in the game settings menu. I usually have this setting off because I wan't them to replace improvements when i discover new resources and I don't experience goofy replacements as a big issue. You can also choose if they remove forest/jungle/marsh. I think automated workers do a fairly good job, building improvements where they are needed and propositioning trade posts in puppets etc. If you have cities on several continents, then they are terrible, embarking and getting killed by barbarian galleys. This can be solved with the mod that forbids automated workers from embarking.

Kennan said:

You can choose this option "workers don't replace old improvements" in the game settings menu. I usually have this setting off because I wan't them to replace improvements when i discover new resources and I don't experience goofy replacements as a big issue.

Click to expand...

I have this on, and when I automate workers (generally for a game that's just mopping up), I notice that they do replace improvements for resource improvements. I don't know what kinds of crazy things they might do without it (generally the game seems content with my choices once an improvement is built, if a worker stops on an improved hex, even if it wanted something different before I improved the tile), but even if you tell them not to replace old improvements, they will make an exception for resources, both newly discovered or those that come into your boarders that an enemy already improved.

Rooftrellen said:

I have this on, and when I automate workers (generally for a game that's just mopping up), I notice that they do replace improvements for resource improvements. I don't know what kinds of crazy things they might do without it (generally the game seems content with my choices once an improvement is built, if a worker stops on an improved hex, even if it wanted something different before I improved the tile), but even if you tell them not to replace old improvements, they will make an exception for resources, both newly discovered or those that come into your boarders that an enemy already improved.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the info! I just assumed they did. Then I will have this option on in the future.

Kennan said:

You can choose this option "workers don't replace old improvements" in the game settings menu. I usually have this setting off because I wan't them to replace improvements when i discover new resources and I don't experience goofy replacements as a big issue. You can also choose if they remove forest/jungle/marsh. I think automated workers do a fairly good job, building improvements where they are needed and propositioning trade posts in puppets etc. If you have cities on several continents, then they are terrible, embarking and getting killed by barbarian galleys. This can be solved with the mod that forbids automated workers from embarking.

Click to expand...

Thanks, this is very helpful! I'm currently playing a large map game where I have roughly 25 cities/puppets and twice as many workers. Controlling all of those workers is exhausting.

Rooftrellen said:

I have this on, and when I automate workers (generally for a game that's just mopping up), I notice that they do replace improvements for resource improvements. I don't know what kinds of crazy things they might do without it (generally the game seems content with my choices once an improvement is built, if a worker stops on an improved hex, even if it wanted something different before I improved the tile), but even if you tell them not to replace old improvements, they will make an exception for resources, both newly discovered or those that come into your boarders that an enemy already improved.

Click to expand...

Hmmm, this is annoying. In my current game I have three mountain surrounded sites where I built Terraces (each is 5F 2P) and later discovered iron. I hope they don't build mines.