LowtherCastle
Deity
- Joined
- May 18, 2005
- Messages
- 23,631
Test save T20
SGOTM 15 - One Short Straw
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Mitchum
Deity
Why is the gold mine delayed? It takes the same number of turns to mine the gems and gold (4 turns)? So, in Gems case, you can work the gems at T+4. In Gold's case, you can work the deer and grow in 6 turns. As long as you finish the gold mine by then, you can work it at T+6.
Gems can be settled in 3T. Gold can be settled in 4T.
So, by my calculations, in 10 turns after the settler is completed, here is what we'd have:
T+3 - Settle gems. Work 2F2C? tile for 3 turns. Start gem mine.
T+6 - Gem mine done. Work 2F1H7C gem mine for 5 turns.
Total = 6F6C + 10F5H35C + 8 * (
T+4 - Settle gold. Work 4F2H tile for 6 turns.
T+10 - Grow to 2 pops. Work 3H8C gold mine for 1 turn.
Total = 24F12H + 2F5H8C + 7 * (
So, the difference between the two, assuming I'm not way off above is:
-10F -11H +34C
Neither city is connected by trade routes. Gold could be connected via a single road segment at deer-1E. I think gems needs 3 road segments...
I guess we'd need to run these test further because gems could quickly pasture the sheep and catch up in food/hammers.
So, the pros for gold are:
More Food/Hammers
Easier to get TR connected
Blocks off more land
Has three visible resources instead of two
The pros for gems are:
More early beakers
Doesn't require Hunting
Slighly lower maintenance
Shares a mine with Delhi
Leaves a deer/cow city option open
For me, the kicker isn't comparing food, hammers, commerce. It's more about sealing off as much land as possible. We can settle gems at any time. We may even need to settle our third city to the north to block off Hamb. We haven't even explored up there yet...
LowtherCastle
Deity
- Joined
- May 18, 2005
- Messages
- 23,631
Gems does TW which means Gems settles on T+2 and gets TRs on T+8.
The kicker to me with Gems is that it motors our way along in techs. For example, we could go TW-BW. That wouldn't speed up City3, but City4 and City5 could come rapidly with some chops. But settling Gold1E and working the gold from the start achieves that too and stakes our claim. Note that G1E settles on T+3, if we have two fogbusters in place.
The kicker to me with Gems is that it motors our way along in techs. For example, we could go TW-BW. That wouldn't speed up City3, but City4 and City5 could come rapidly with some chops. But settling Gold1E and working the gold from the start achieves that too and stakes our claim. Note that G1E settles on T+3, if we have two fogbusters in place.
LowtherCastle
Deity
- Joined
- May 18, 2005
- Messages
- 23,631
Btw, maintenance costs get summed up to 2 decimals, then rounded down to an integer at the end, so basically, assuming the map dimensions ZPV suggested, Gems starts at 2gpt, Gold at 3gpt (D=6 or D=7).
Mitchum
Deity
With the pigs, wouldn't TW -> AH be better then TW -> BW for Gems?
Regarding Gold, the biggest reason I would consider settling it next is to work the early pre-improved deer. Since Gold-1E can't do that, I don't see the benefit. At gold-1E, you'd have to research AH next, improve the sheep on the turn it's settled and then work the gold after growing to 2 pops. This would put gold-1E way behind gems.
Regarding Gold, the biggest reason I would consider settling it next is to work the early pre-improved deer. Since Gold-1E can't do that, I don't see the benefit. At gold-1E, you'd have to research AH next, improve the sheep on the turn it's settled and then work the gold after growing to 2 pops. This would put gold-1E way behind gems.
LowtherCastle
Deity
- Joined
- May 18, 2005
- Messages
- 23,631
How about a construction bee-line as the primary goal? Is there a way to safely risk going for a Construction slingshot? Probably using a Math bulb? By safely, I mean, if we miss on the Oracle, we're still in position to research Construction relatively quickly.
We'd have to figure out how to build a library quickly, in Delhi probably, and then work the 2 sci for 8.5 turns. That means a writing beeline. As a back-up, failed gold from GW and/or SH + REX would give us enough beaker-producing capacity to get COnstruction quickly.
Or just slingshot CoL more safely, then work sci to get Construction by hand?
And as Mitchum pointed out, we need to connect the marble, also no simple task, unless we settle on Marble after all, which is still a possiblity.
LowtherCastle
Deity
- Joined
- May 18, 2005
- Messages
- 23,631
That's the standard view to take. But does the pig farm help us settle faster? Not sure it does, but it would have to be tested. If our research is kicking ass then maybe TW-AH-BW is fast enough to get the best of both worlds.
Do we really want to block our chances from settling that deer/cows city? How many nice sites do we even have in Toku Prison? If we're prioritizing research and claiming the land, then this is one option. In other words, we can grow Gold to pop2 now or do it later, depending on when we need the beakers. I also really like the idea of building SH there. That would expand the borders quickly, fogbust, and discourage Toku from settling there.
Exploratory thinking. But not settling near the deer is not taking advantage of a powerful early-game tile.
Not researching hunting before AH costs us 20+ beakers. Neil did a good job on creating an MM nightmare for those who hate it... 
Mitchum
Deity
Always thining out of the box, you are! 
So the thinking on the Construction beeline is that we would catapult rush Toku and/or Hami, right? Hopefully we have copper and/or horses because I'd hate to have archers backing them up. My guess is that we have both. Otherwise it would be very hard to do much once we get boxed in.
In any event, a pure Construction beeline would include Masonry (124), PH (93), Writing (187) and Math (390). Throw in Hunting (62), TW (93), Pottery? (124), AH (156) and BW (187) and we're up to 1,416
not including any pre-req bonuses... or is that boni?
If we settle both gems and gold, I don't think research is going to be an issue. I'd hate to build the Oracle naked with marble so close. That means that we'd also need to settle a fourth city.
Sounds like testing is in order if we feel this strategy has merit. Goal: settle all of gold, gems and marble and complete the Construction slingshot by when? 1200 BC?
Would axes/chariots backed by cats allow us to take out both Toku and Ham in the BCs? That would be cool.
So the thinking on the Construction beeline is that we would catapult rush Toku and/or Hami, right? Hopefully we have copper and/or horses because I'd hate to have archers backing them up. My guess is that we have both. Otherwise it would be very hard to do much once we get boxed in.
In any event, a pure Construction beeline would include Masonry (124), PH (93), Writing (187) and Math (390). Throw in Hunting (62), TW (93), Pottery? (124), AH (156) and BW (187) and we're up to 1,416
not including any pre-req bonuses... or is that boni?If we settle both gems and gold, I don't think research is going to be an issue. I'd hate to build the Oracle naked with marble so close. That means that we'd also need to settle a fourth city.
Sounds like testing is in order if we feel this strategy has merit. Goal: settle all of gold, gems and marble and complete the Construction slingshot by when? 1200 BC?
Would axes/chariots backed by cats allow us to take out both Toku and Ham in the BCs? That would be cool.
First of all, the Oracle is (mostly) absolutely safe until someone founds a religion. The chances of an AI researching Medi-PH when the Poly religion is still open are small.
Do we need cats to take down Kyoto? If there are only 2 archers there, then they're costly and excessive. If there's anything more than that, then they're just the ticket.
There's no point bombarding at 2%/turn for 50 cat-turns though - we'll just have to grin and bear it.
What do we need to build the Oracle for construction?
Priesthood, obviously.
Writing->Maths.
Masonry.
Two marble-enhanced chops with maths means we can put the Oracle and its culture anywhere we like, so add to the list:
BW
The Wheel.
Finally there's the other stuff we could get:
Hunting/AH.
Pottery
Iron Working if we have no horses/copper.
--
@Mitchum:
Should we be satisfied with four cities, or go for even more if we can afford them?
Do we need cats to take down Kyoto? If there are only 2 archers there, then they're costly and excessive. If there's anything more than that, then they're just the ticket.
There's no point bombarding at 2%/turn for 50 cat-turns though - we'll just have to grin and bear it.
What do we need to build the Oracle for construction?
Priesthood, obviously.
Writing->Maths.
Masonry.
Two marble-enhanced chops with maths means we can put the Oracle and its culture anywhere we like, so add to the list:
BW
The Wheel.
Finally there's the other stuff we could get:
Hunting/AH.
Pottery
Iron Working if we have no horses/copper.
--
@Mitchum:
Should we be satisfied with four cities, or go for even more if we can afford them?
Mitchum
Deity
If all we're getting is the cow, then maybe. If there are more resources in the fog, then maybe not. Is the tile at gold-4N a peak? If not, settling there will get the cow and be on the coast where there could be some seafood.
Settling at deer-NE would mess up that location...How many city sites do we really need to be able to break out of said prison?
Got it. If we need beakers, we work the gold mine at 1 pop. If not, we grow. We could do the same with Gold-1N too, right? The benefit of Gold-1N is that it can work the powerful pre-improved deer resource while waiting for the gold mine to be done!
Then, if we need commerce for our Construction beeline, we can stop working the dear for a turn or twenty.This applies equally to both Gold-1N and Gold-1E. Gold-1E does claim more new land, but the concept is the same.
Exploratory thinking. But not settling near the deer is not taking advantage of a powerful early-game tile.
I know how this team hates MM. Let's just wing it...
Honestly, we're in no rush at the moment, right? I think we need a few test games comparing our options and trying to see what we can sling (and I'm not talking about $hit) and how soon. The sooner we get out of LC's Toku Prison the sooner we win the game, me thinks.
Mitchum
Deity
Actually, the Ply religion is not still open since we founded Hinduism, right? Do the AI see Poly as a chance to grab a religion of their choice? If not, then maybe you're right and we have time for a good Oracle sling.
How many axes would be needed for two protective archers on a hill? My guess is that Toku may have 2 archers to start but could/would whip 1 or 2 more while we march closer, making axes a tough road.
That's all I've got to say to that...Good call.
If things are tight and we have copper, I'd be inclined to skip IW and Pottery. I hate missing out on granaries, but with with everything else we want to build (2+ workers, 3+ settlers, SH, 1 to 3 libraries, fog busters, Oracle, etc.), when would we fit in the granaries? I guess testing will flush that out.
If we could fit in a fifth blocking city in the north, why not.
If this delays the slingshot, I'm not sure if it makes sense though.Mitchum
Deity
Wait a minute. Why do we think Toku's borders are going to pop in 6 turns or whatever the number is? The non-creative, non-Spiritual AI in our test game still need 15 more turns. Does that mean that the worker steal is on?
In any event, I put lions to the north of gold in the test save so they will have to be dealt with. I put one by the gems too but LC deleted it. I don't think we should be able to move the warrior in the east until Toku's borders pop. That means that one drawback to settling gold next is that the new warrior has to head east instead of exploring northward toward possible greener pastures...
EDIT: Just looked in the real game and Toku's culture is higher than expected.
In any event, I put lions to the north of gold in the test save so they will have to be dealt with. I put one by the gems too but LC deleted it. I don't think we should be able to move the warrior in the east until Toku's borders pop. That means that one drawback to settling gold next is that the new warrior has to head east instead of exploring northward toward possible greener pastures...
EDIT: Just looked in the real game and Toku's culture is higher than expected.
LowtherCastle
Deity
- Joined
- May 18, 2005
- Messages
- 23,631
The Great Escape
Well, maybe Neil is Australian after all. (Whatever that's supposed to mean...) We might have just discoverd how to break out of this prison. Then again, maybe not. A fellow prisoner gave me this. He gave up on escaping long ago, but saved this map for the right man...
One more detail this might reveal that I had suspected all along about the sinister Neil. He might have connected all land into one landmass. In other words, a city on the tiles to the west of Gems might not give us 2cpt TRs...
Well, maybe Neil is Australian after all. (Whatever that's supposed to mean...
) We might have just discoverd how to break out of this prison. Then again, maybe not. A fellow prisoner gave me this. He gave up on escaping long ago, but saved this map for the right man...One more detail this might reveal that I had suspected all along about the sinister Neil. He might have connected all land into one landmass. In other words, a city on the tiles to the west of Gems might not give us 2cpt TRs...
Attachments
LowtherCastle
Deity
- Joined
- May 18, 2005
- Messages
- 23,631
Toku's been getting 4 culture per turn from teh beginning. That's why I think he's got a castle (+1cpt +25% eppt). The F8 Victory COnditions screen shows Kyoto at 80
.
Previously, I calced we would need 4 axes or 5 chariots per archer garrisoned in Kyoto, plus reserve for bad luck. That was without the -25% crossing river bonus, so it might be 5/6 now.
.Previously, I calced we would need 4 axes or 5 chariots per archer garrisoned in Kyoto, plus reserve for bad luck. That was without the -25% crossing river bonus, so it might be 5/6 now.
LowtherCastle
Deity
- Joined
- May 18, 2005
- Messages
- 23,631
I didn't expect you to respond, but the point I'm making is that my impression is that the point of this scenario was to beeline Hinduism, then continue on with the game. Sticking agriculture before Poly(/Medit) was supposed to be discouraged and risky. Sure enough, normal testing shows that even starting without Mysticism, AIs easily get Poly or Meditation by 3280BC so that there was no point in risking it.
However, it seems that you've nerfed/chosen AIs to the point that they don't get either religion before a human team can go agri-medit/poly. If the Ducks go for this, they'll almost surely get it and it's GAME OVER for the rest of us. I highly doubt that was your intention as the author of the scenario, just as Gyathaar didn't intend for CFR to pop Mining from a hut in SG2, thereby making it impossible for any other team to remotely compete. (Goody huts have always been removed from SGs since then.)
In hindsight, the simple solution would have been to dictate that teams have to revolt to Hinduism by T16 or whatever, but that's hindsight, isn't it?
I'm hoping the Ducks play sportsmanlike and play the scenario as intended, just we did and Kakumeika seem to be doing . . .
LowtherCastle
Deity
- Joined
- May 18, 2005
- Messages
- 23,631
Btw, Neil, I just noticed this:
so I assume we have nothing to worry about...
No offense taken. 
I was just surprised that you seemed to be advocating abandoning the game before the Ducks even posted their first save.
EDIT: and surely you would abandon a game if you accidently gave away your third city
I was just surprised that you seemed to be advocating abandoning the game before the Ducks even posted their first save.
EDIT: and surely you would abandon a game if you accidently gave away your third city
LowtherCastle
Deity
- Joined
- May 18, 2005
- Messages
- 23,631
Well, I'm not advocating anything. I would hope that others here will do their own thing and take full enjoyment in that. I spend at most 30 minutes on a typical GOTM before losing interest. I invest a huge amount of effort into SGs, but there's always a fine line between me investing time and losing interest. For example, the straitjacket of this Toku Prison intensely tries my patience and interest, but I realize that's just me--I like action.
The gifted third city provided an opportunity to adopt an alternative, potentially viable, and challenging strategy. Plus it was my personal blunder and I owed it to my team to at least attempt to help rectify it, especially since they were so supportive of me at the time of my embarrassment.
In this case, it's out of our hands completely. And the Ducks not having uploaded a save yet can be even worse--they could still settle SIP1E and research hunting first, knowing they can easily complete Medit in time, and by then meet two unit-whoring Tokus, put two and two together (at least hypothetically, since we still don't know whether or not there are more Tokus and I'm NOT trying to trick that out of you), decide to research agri before Medit, also likely to be workable, etc . . .
But I also jabber a lot, so that's why I didn't expect you to respond in the first place.
Btw, I also thought we'd screwed up SG8 early on and said so, but we went on to win by quite a wide margin...
The gifted third city provided an opportunity to adopt an alternative, potentially viable, and challenging strategy. Plus it was my personal blunder and I owed it to my team to at least attempt to help rectify it, especially since they were so supportive of me at the time of my embarrassment.
In this case, it's out of our hands completely. And the Ducks not having uploaded a save yet can be even worse--they could still settle SIP1E and research hunting first, knowing they can easily complete Medit in time, and by then meet two unit-whoring Tokus, put two and two together (at least hypothetically, since we still don't know whether or not there are more Tokus and I'm NOT trying to trick that out of you), decide to research agri before Medit, also likely to be workable, etc . . .
But I also jabber a lot, so that's why I didn't expect you to respond in the first place.
Btw, I also thought we'd screwed up SG8 early on and said so, but we went on to win by quite a wide margin...
Yes, exactly. We also need horses, which could be anywhere. I don't buy the need for marble, since it only saves 75h for a big investment, but that's also an optional city. As you point out, also a potential Hammy block. Since we're constrained here, blocking land is paramount. In my experience, Toku can expand surprisingly fast. I think it's because he only really invests in units and expansion.
With a Construction beeline, we can ideally stick with 3-4 cities only at first. That's a much better play with ivory available, ofc, but it can still work here. I'm all for busting up a Toku or two early. It's looking like we'll struggle to even get 6 cities (on a massive land map, btw), and we have awful diplo with multiple Tokus. That means no tech trade and early DOW... I like Oracle Construction. It's quite strong.
I'm very busy these days, guys. Sorry if I'm being curt or failing to really participate. I'll have more time in a couple of weeks, I think.
