C2C - Civics Discussion Thread

I know and I agree. So how come nothing's been done boss?

JosEPh

EldrinFal said:

Garbage: I think "Importation" needs to be removed. The category, to me, covers how your Civ deals with your own trash. Well, you can't solve your own trash problem by importing more! I would consider that like a Building that gives a lot of unhealth and maybe unhappiness in exchange for money.

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Importation needs to be there if we are having Exportation. Plus you do get some income for importing other empires trash. At the moment Money is not much of a problem but if things get rebalanced then some income you might look good.

Hydromancerx said:

Importation needs to be there if we are having Exportation. Plus you do get some income for importing other empires trash. At the moment Money is not much of a problem but if things get rebalanced then some income you might look good.

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I don't think that's true: you don't need the opposite. The issue is how to deal with your (the player's) society's waste, not the additional business of importing additional trash. Just seems to make more sense to me as a building. Because you could technically import trash, but then dump it into the sea, or send it into space, etc.

EldrinFal said:

I don't think that's true: you don't need the opposite. The issue is how to deal with your (the player's) society's waste, not the additional business of importing additional trash. Just seems to make more sense to me as a building. Because you could technically import trash, but then dump it into the sea, or send it into space, etc.

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Hmm i see what you mean. Too bad trash is not a good you can buy or sell. It a weird mechanic that I don't think civ 4 deals with well.

strategyonly said:

I have been saying that now for 6 months

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This is the first time I have understood what it was that you were saying. Oh and you need to be more persistant, like Joseph.

Dancing Hoskuld said:

This is the first time I have understood what it was that you were saying. Oh and you need to be more persistant, like Joseph.

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@DH,
Here in the USA we have sayings for each State as to a person's temperament coming from that State. Since I was born in the State of Missouri the saying is, " As stubborn as a Missouri Mule!" The wife says that fits me to the Nth degree.

JosEPh

I hate GST for 2 reasons:

1.) Anything past 5% and you start incurring penalties if memory serves me correctly

2.) The options do not fit on my civics screen, I don't even know what 100% does, but I can imagine.

Hydromancerx said:

Hmm i see what you mean. Too bad trash is not a good you can buy or sell. It a weird mechanic that I don't think civ 4 deals with well.

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For some reason the idea of seeing "Good (Trash)" gave me a chuckle. It's like the Good no one wants. Hah! What if Trash were a spawning unit that can't be deleted within Cultural boundaries without causing temporary +1 Unhealthiness to the nearest city?! Imagine the look on your opponent's face when THAT Stack of Doom showed up at their borders!!

Orangepitcher03 said:

I hate GST for 2 reasons:

1.) Anything past 5% and you start incurring penalties if memory serves me correctly

2.) The options do not fit on my civics screen, I don't even know what 100% does, but I can imagine.

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I am now testing things out to see if we really do need a GST or a DEFCON civics.

I've never used GST, my cities growth is usually limited by happiness, and as no GST provides +2 happy, I can't bring myself to change it.

Anyway, the tax rate already performs the purpose of this civic, even without GST you can pretty much always run at 100% science for a huge gold surplus. On the harder difficulties it is an extra punishment to the player, in my most recent game on deity (without flexible difficulty) the AI has no problem with happiness and has immense cities (some 80+ compared to my 30s) and most of the time run at 70% GST (7 unhappy, -5% hammers, +70% gold) as happiness is not an issue for them they lose a tiny bit of production for a huge amount of gold.

I do use waste importation though, there are so many more things that provide health compared to happiness so it isn't really an issue having an extra 5 unhealthy in every city!

GST feels... awkward. There's nothing it does that tax policy doesn't, and wealth growth is already ludicrously high as it is (at least for me). Defcon is effectively redundant due to the MAD military civic, and otherwise is just a civic-ization of what the player should be doing with military spending and preparations. I say, let's thin the civic screen out a bit with these two.

Praetyre said:

GST feels... awkward. There's nothing it does that tax policy doesn't, and wealth growth is already ludicrously high as it is (at least for me). Defcon is effectively redundant due to the MAD military civic, and otherwise is just a civic-ization of what the player should be doing with military spending and preparations. I say, let's thin the civic screen out a bit with these two.

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I agree and second this. No offense to VineFynn.

EldrinFal said:

For some reason the idea of seeing "Good (Trash)" gave me a chuckle. It's like the Good no one wants. Hah! What if Trash were a spawning unit that can't be deleted within Cultural boundaries without causing temporary +1 Unhealthiness to the nearest city?! Imagine the look on your opponent's face when THAT Stack of Doom showed up at their borders!!

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I do have a rat unit (not animated) which I was thinking of using to represent plague spread. However I could not figure out how to have it only attacked by health care units.

Hydromancerx said:

I agree and second this. No offense to VineFynn.

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Sometimes ideas work out and sometimes they don't. I think as long as they are discussed and analyzed critically, without derogatory comment, no offense should be perceived. Plus, a lot has changed and been added to the mod since then, so it's just a different situation now.

Dancing Hoskuld said:

I do have a rat unit (not animated) which I was thinking of using to represent plague spread. However I could not figure out how to have it only attacked by health care units.

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The idea of trash as a unit is hilarious to me and would certainly create a new challenge to deal with in a NEW way, BUT having said that, it could turn out to be a headache and although initially funny, end up as more of an annoyance.

Random and occasional spawning of rat units could be interesting though. They are almost like barbarian units spawning INSIDE cultural borders, with the additional effect of creating plagues in your cities if they reach it and successfully carry out that "mission." I would see them like spies kind of, where they go to the city square and then have a command to Spread Plague, which would have a certain % chance to be created. Or cause temporary unhealthiness like Poisoning a Water Source.

But allowing Healers or similar units only to kill them.. hmm... I suspect they would need a special flag (Vermin) and then we'd need a Unit Type or Promotion that allows attacking them. Not something we've seen in the mod before.

I could see GST being used more and be more important if gold rate was reduced from start, only increasing towards 100% through the use of GST. -25% with each step of GST (5 steps would be enough) giving +5% each. Like people say; gold income is easy enough to come by anyway. I also think most of the buildings that give gold or %gold don't really give the government all the money. Merchants, shop-owners, craftsmen, workers, and businessmen need their income too, and part of the gold from those buildings would be for them. Need to tax services and goods for the government to get some of that.

The Civic for GST could even be twofold, including percentage of government owned services/facilities. State owning more could increase maintenance while adding a little happy and health (healthcare/police/fire-brigades/a.s.o being more readily available to all when state owned) vs. privatized decreasing maintenance costs (or driving them down towards the standard) while increasing unhappy and unhealthy due to catering more to wealthy clients.
This happy/unhappy/healthy/unhealthy could be in % instead so that bigger cities get hit harder with the negative effect but also gain more from the positive effects.

Defcon I don't really see much need for though on that note I think Pacifism should incur an unhappy penalty for every military unit the civilization owns, like 1% (or less on bigger maps).
Defcon is really already included in how many military units one trains.

About Borders; I like having it but agree that the choice is rather limited. Open Borders, for me, wins hands down in the early game. Closed borders basically only has negative effects and should have some more positive effects to be even considered.

I miss Recycling as a late game Garbage option.
Edit Maybe give +1 to Citizen and Engineer? (To simulate the "Garbage" colectors and the more resources aviable)

I always feel bad using a civic that I don't agree with morally. It always bothers me when I wind up with Atheist as opposed to Secular. Nothing kills me more than using slavery but it sometimes gets the job done. Does anyone else dislike civics regardless of the effects in-game?

Changed Civics Limitations and some war weariness:

Anarchism (5) - Chiefdom (8) - Despotism (11) - Monarchy (17) - Republic (20) - the rest (Unlimited)

War weariness decreased in Democracy/Federal to: +50%/+75%

Orangepitcher03 said:

I always feel bad using a civic that I don't agree with morally. It always bothers me when I wind up with Atheist as opposed to Secular. Nothing kills me more than using slavery but it sometimes gets the job done. Does anyone else dislike civics regardless of the effects in-game?

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I know I do, so yes.