C2C - Units

Starting this thread for discussion about any units in general. Is there a unit you think is too powerful? Too weak? Too expensive? Needs a promotions or one taken away? Post your comments/ideas/suggestions here.

Ranger would possibly be a great unit still with str 5 or 6 and -50% city attack. I could wipe out two civs and nearly a third with 4 Rangers before Writing.

While I don't necessarily think they're too powerful, there's a problem with the Bandit Footpad unit in the Ancient Era.

It has a raw strength greater than all it's contemporaries (axemen and bowmen and horsemen are all str 5, it's 6). Itss hidden nationality.

It's balanced out by its high cost, its very high maintenance, and the ramping cost. The problem (in my opinion), is the AI. It sees HN (which it likes), and a high base STR (very good), and decides to compose massive forces of them. My most recent game had a pre-Writing Portugal (with Start as Minor Civs) running around with 14 of them. I don't want to think how many conventional units they could have got for that many hammers, not to mention the 70 gold per turn upkeep. And since they were a minor civ, they get NOTHING out of HN units.

The warlord units aren't as bad since you can only build so many, but the AI just doesn't seem to get the bandit units, and is killing itself with them.

@Grunthex

Should the Bandit Footpad and Bandit Rider be national units and have a limit on how many you can make then? If so how many?

Grunthex said:

While I don't necessarily think they're too powerful, there's a problem with the Bandit Footpad unit in the Ancient Era.

It has a raw strength greater than all it's contemporaries (axemen and bowmen and horsemen are all str 5, it's 6). Itss hidden nationality.

It's balanced out by its high cost, its very high maintenance, and the ramping cost. The problem (in my opinion), is the AI. It sees HN (which it likes), and a high base STR (very good), and decides to compose massive forces of them. My most recent game had a pre-Writing Portugal (with Start as Minor Civs) running around with 14 of them. I don't want to think how many conventional units they could have got for that many hammers, not to mention the 70 gold per turn upkeep. And since they were a minor civ, they get NOTHING out of HN units.

The warlord units aren't as bad since you can only build so many, but the AI just doesn't seem to get the bandit units, and is killing itself with them.

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I'll take a look - it's POSSIBLE the AI doesn't understand special maintenaince costs for units.

@Dancing Hoskuld

Your Cobra shows first strike chances 1-66 !!

EldrinFal said:

@Dancing Hoskuld

Your Cobra shows first strike chances 1-66 !!

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I told you before, you need nukes to kill them. Actually I messed up the unit infos, went back to the original and forgot that field.

Dancing Hoskuld said:

I told you before, you need nukes to kill them. Actually I messed up the unit infos, went back to the original and forgot that field.

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You did! But for some reason I thought that meant high STR, not Super-Sonic attack speed!

Speaking of Cobras, did you consider some kind of Poison system? Or lingering effect on a unit in general? FfH I believe used promotions to achieve that sort of thing.

EldrinFal said:

You did! But for some reason I thought that meant high STR, not Super-Sonic attack speed!

Speaking of Cobras, did you consider some kind of Poison system? Or lingering effect on a unit in general? FfH I believe used promotions to achieve that sort of thing.

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So uh, are these going to be changed to be reasonably killable!?

Koshling said:

So uh, are these going to be changed to be reasonably killable!?

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They were changed 12-18 hour ago.

@Hydromancerx

With the Hunting tech a requirement for these units, it can take a bit of time before they come into play. Barring the fortune of getting the Neanderthal WW or an early Culture, there is really no aggressive unit to use against Neanderthals for much of the early game. In my recent test game, I'm approaching 5000 bc which is where Neanderthals stop spawning currently and I JUST got Hunting.

Do you think perhaps those two units should just require Axe/Spear Making and either Flint Knapping or Fine Edged Tools? Or maybe just Cooperation or Persistence Hunting?

EldrinFal said:

@Hydromancerx

With the Hunting tech a requirement for these units, it can take a bit of time before they come into play. Barring the fortune of getting the Neanderthal WW or an early Culture, there is really no aggressive unit to use against Neanderthals for much of the early game. In my recent test game, I'm approaching 5000 bc which is where Neanderthals stop spawning currently and I JUST got Hunting.

Do you think perhaps those two units should just require Axe/Spear Making and either Flint Knapping or Fine Edged Tools? Or maybe just Cooperation or Persistence Hunting?

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Rogues rock in this role. Promote them up on animals then devestate the Neaderthals with them.

Koshling said:

Rogues rock in this role. Promote them up on animals then devestate the Neaderthals with them.

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I haven't really used them against Neanderthals yet to be honest. I'll give it a try. Are they 2 Str or 3?

I still think Stone Axemen/Spearman arrive a little late though. The Hunting tech is good to unlock a hunting-type unit, but not sure it's necessary for the stone weapon types.

Plus, need a unit that can act as tile guards. Neanderthals don't see rogues, correct?

EldrinFal said:

I haven't really used them against Neanderthals yet to be honest. I'll give it a try. Are they 2 Str or 3?

I still think Stone Axemen/Spearman arrive a little late though. The Hunting tech is good to unlock a hunting-type unit, but not sure it's necessary for the stone weapon types.

Plus, need a unit that can act as tile guards. Neanderthals don't see rogues, correct?

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3 but because they are not visible you can be patient and just follow your target until it steps on a no-defensive bonus tile then attack it, and not run the risk of another unit attacking you while you recover. Starts out slow as you have to be careful to promote it up in low risk encounters (scarifice a clubman to weaken youir target say then kill with the rogue). Same technique works for thieves (and you can upgrade them to rogues with all the promotions intact once you get the tech), although at strength 2 they are usually best kept to animals until they get the upgrade.

Koshling said:

3 but because they are not visible you can be patient and just follow your target until it steps on a no-defensive bonus tile then attack it, and not run the risk of another unit attacking you while you recover. Starts out slow as you have to be careful to promote it up in low risk encounters (scarifice a clubman to weaken youir target say then kill with the rogue). Same technique works for thieves (and you can upgrade them to rogues with all the promotions intact once you get the tech), although at strength 2 they are usually best kept to animals until they get the upgrade.

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No defense terrain is tough to find these days. Although the desert terrain looks nice, I tend to favor more Wet climates. My maps are always covered in forest.

So Rogues don't need Hunting before being unlocked? I thought Hunting would have some aspect of stealth required by Rogues. More so than just a caveman swinging an axe or chucking a spear.

I had suggested before changing Neanderthals to Str 2 units with +50% forest attack. This would make them Str 3 against units in the forest both on the attack and defense, and Str 2 if they leave the woods, which the AI doesn't like to do.

Nevets_ said:

I had suggested before changing Neanderthals to Str 2 units with +50% forest attack. This would make them Str 3 against units in the forest both on the attack and defense, and Str 2 if they leave the woods, which the AI doesn't like to do.

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That still beats Clubmen, who have Str 2 and Slingers, also Str 2.

I don't mind Neanderthals being stronger to start, in fact, I think they SHOULD be stronger at the get-go. But units used to match them in Str should perhaps arrive a little earlier than they do.

@EldrinFal & Nevets

If you are lucky enough to build culture buildings such as the Neanderthal or Sioux you can really devastate the wild Neanderthals. But I do agree that the rogues are best for taking on wild Neanderthals if you don't have a special culture building.

And the whole point of having wild Neanderthals in early game is to slow your exploration progress down. It also acts as a buffer sometimes between civs if you have minor civ on where enemy troops cannot attack your city yet since they are taken out by the wild Neanderthals between them and you.

I personally think Stone Axemen & Stone Spearman are right on with their level. They come at the right time and are still a step up from the Clubman.

EldrinFal said:

So Rogues don't need Hunting before being unlocked? I thought Hunting would have some aspect of stealth required by Rogues. More so than just a caveman swinging an axe or chucking a spear.

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I always imagine the Thieves or Rogues using stone daggers and ambushing those stupid Neanderthals as they get close enough to attack. The wild Neanderthals must have like a cultural legend of an invisible monster who jumps out from the shadows and kills you.

Hydromancerx said:

@EldrinFal & Nevets

If you are lucky enough to build culture buildings such as the Neanderthal or Sioux you can really devastate the wild Neanderthals. But I do agree that the rogues are best for taking on wild Neanderthals if you don't have a special culture building.

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Completely agree. But you have to rely on luck to have the resources near your starting spot.

And the whole point of having wild Neanderthals in early game is to slow your exploration progress down. It also acts as a buffer sometimes between civs if you have minor civ on where enemy troops cannot attack your city yet since they are taken out by the wild Neanderthals between them and you.

I personally think Stone Axemen & Stone Spearman are right on with their level. They come at the right time and are still a step up from the Clubman.

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Ok, well I use Raging Barbarians. One reason being that without it, the Neanderthals don't wander into Cultural borders or attack your town, which seems like an artificial handicap to me. They basically behave like animals.

With Raging ON, they will attack and pillage. So more or less the starting game becomes a matter of survival. It's hardcore. And I like that. I also realize it isn't for everyone. However, even on speedy Marathon, it takes a bit of time to get to Hunting. So until then, unless you're lucky to get the above-mentioned cultures, you're mainstay units are Slingers, Clubmen, and Thieves/Rogues.

Conceptually though, why would Stone Spearmen and Stone Axemen require Hunting to build? Hunter types sure. But low-tech brutes? Just saying...

I always imagine the Thieves or Rogues using stone daggers and ambushing those stupid Neanderthals as they get close enough to attack. The wild Neanderthals must have like a cultural legend of an invisible monster who jumps out from the shadows and kills you.

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Caveman Ninja! I love it! hah Now I picture a caveman holding like a few branches in front of himself pretending to be a tree, waiting for the other Neanderthals to wander by, who of course, are completely fooled. Then the "Ninja" pulls his stone kunai out to ambush them. hah

Although I'd have to say the man-eating horses and camels are some of my Civ's most feared monsters of legend.

EldrinFal said:

Conceptually though, why would Stone Spearmen and Stone Axemen require Hunting to build? Hunter types sure. But low-tech brutes? Just saying...

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Originally they were linked to Warfare, but we had complaints that was too late, so we moved it back to Hunting since it was a bottleneck. Think of Hunting as pre-Warfare where they are attacking animals and not people.

Don't get me wrong I am not totally opposed to say having the Stone Spearman just require Spear Making or the Stone Axeman only require Axe Making. I just worry that it will come too early.