SGOTM 15 - Maple Sporks

No Horsies? :cry:

Well I guess we should do what we did the last game - use a couple of well-placed warriors to prevent the barbs from spawning.
 
I´d also research BW next just to confirm we don´t have copper either.

I have to disagree here. I would go The Wheel first for the reasons stated above.

Trade routes + Goldmine should get us a fast Bronze Working and a couple of fogbusting warriors will serve as a sufficient defense in the meantime.
 
I don't wanna argue :D I also don't underestimate the importance of BW to us. However, I just can't think of any reason to go BW before The Wheel when we can effectively fogbust with only a couple of well placed warriors worth 15:hammers:

Remember - a trade route adds 2:commerce:/T, which may seem like a very small benefit at the first glance. But if we delay building said trade route for a merely 10 turns we would lose 20:commerce: total which is an equivalent of 2 turns of research at our current research rate.

Plus there is this "hidden bonus", a chance that Hindusim will spread to our second city, which would allow it to start working on its border pop (who knows what's hidden in the eastern fog).
 
Thanks Norvin! Got it for next set.

I'd research wheel first, then BW. To add to Ororo's good arguments, odds are that we may need the wheel anyway to hook up a potential bronze.

Do we take the safe route through the hills with the settler? Are we sure 2 move animals could still be around?

Worker pastures sheep first, then mines gold, then roads to set up TR.

Capital produces at least 2 warriors and grows asap to size 4. Then I'd start on settler and worker (or vv). New city (Golden Fleece :)) starts on monument (?).

So far my pre-PPP. :p Haven't seen the actual save yet, but I guess roughly that's it for starters.
 
Good point on needing the wheel anyway to hook up copper (unless it will be under goldefleece). How badly we need BW depends on two things:
1. The Togu's. I think we determined we might be safe from them for a little while
2. The barbs. If I remember correctly human barbs will start spawning when the avarage number of cities per civ reaches two. Some time after that they will start entering your borders. In the transition period between animals and human barbs, one animal will get replaced by a human every turn. We need not dear barb warriors, but barb archers will be a pain without copper. How quickly can we get our fogbusting set up to prevent human barbs spawning at all?

On production in goldenfleece: I would maybe wait with the monument to see if hinduism spreads. We don't need the border pop immediately because we have two nice tiles to work in the inner ring.

I don't want to take a chance with the settler. Whether that means walking throught the hills depends on the terrain around it. I never checked on it exactly, but I have the feeling that 2 move aniumals are sort of a woodsman II: being able to walk two through forest, but not across hills? Anyone know about this?
 
Musings:

T0 18/24f +8; 7/15h +3
T1 2/26f +7; 10/15h +6
T2 9/26f +7; 1/15h +6 (new warrior -> warrior)
T3 16/26f +7; 7/15h +6
T4 23/26f +7; 13/15h +6
T5 4/28f +6; 4/60h +9 (new warrior -> worker)
...
T9 4/28f +6; 4/100h +9 (worker -> settler)
T16 4/28f +6; 9/?h +9 (settler -> whatever)

or
T5 4/28f +6; 4/100h +9 (new warrior -> settler)
...
T12 4/28f +6; 9/60h +9 (settler -> worker)
T16 4/28f +6; 9/?h +9 (worker -> whatever)

Meanwhile settle Golden Fleece on T3 (safe route); start pasture T3 (4 turns?). Start mine T8 (5 turns ?). Road T13.

If we go worker first we have TRs around T14 (3 roads needed) if that worker helps with roading. Then he can go and accompany settler and improve city 3.

If we have gold on T13, I don't think we have BW yet when settler completes, even with worker first. However, I think we should just settle Pearly Swine anyway. Yet another settler for a bronze not in our territory would take just 7 turns more.

Good point about not really needing border pop immediately. Golden Fleece can then just make some more warriors for busting/scouting purposes and let capital concentrate on workers/settlers.

Re: animals, I don't think they have woody2 or guerilla... As far as I can remember I never saw animals ignoring terrain cost.
 
Golden Fleece:

T3 0/22f +3; 0/15h +1
T4 3/22f +3; 1/15h +1
T5 6/22f +3; 2/15h +1
T6 9/22f +3; 3/15h +1
T7 12/22f +5; 4/15h +1
T8 17/22f +5; 5/15h +1
T9 0/24f +5; 6/15h +2
T10 5/24f +5; 8/15h +2
T11 10/24f +5; 10/15h +2
T12 15/24f +5; 12/15h +2
T13 20/24f +5; 14/15h +2 or T13 20/24f +3; 14/15h +4 (if working gold)

So around T14/15 Golden Fleece can be size 3 already. After gold+road worker can do grass hill. Maybe at size 3 it can also start on a worker.
 
Not sure if I have this correct but I also thought that when it comes to barb axes that they won't spawn if you haven't teched BW. Anyone ever heard of that or can confirm?

I will try to post an updated test save in a bit.

I like Wheel next as well.
 
Plan C: tech masonry, build Gwall, forget barbs.
 
The updated test save is below.

From the shape of our land it seems to me that we will have 2 "flanks" to defend (east v. Toku and west v. Hammu). I wish I hadn't lost that warrior as locating Toku and scouting what would appear to be our nearest threat would certainly have helped in our planning.

I know the GWall doesn't synch well with Ororo's plan for early trebs but stealing techs might be nice.
 

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Actually the problem I have with G Wall is not that it will pollute the GP pool...after all Great Spy can be really useful in a game with no tech trading (steal stuff like Math, Monarchy that the AI WILL tech), but the fact that it's a big hammer drain at the stage of the game when we want to spam settlers/workers/warriors exclusively.
 
^ Then again, how many hammers is it exactly, and how many fogbusters does that safe us? That needs to be taken into the equation.

A great spy can also be very useful in scouting the closed borders of the 2 (or maybe more) Togu's.

I'm definately not against the GW!
 
^ I don't fully discard it either, but I do think it's an issue for after my set. Both wheel and BW are so primordial that imo we should tech both now, whatever we do next. That can be oracle, mids or wall but not after the very basics. Obviously BW is not just for potential bronze but also for chop & whip.
 
^ Then again, how many hammers is it exactly, and how many fogbusters does that safe us? That needs to be taken into the equation.
!

A very good point that I, for some reason, have totally forgotten about.

But I agree with nocho that both TW and BW are absolutely necessary right now. Besides if we want to build The Great Wall, then whip & chop is they way to do it (2-pop a settler with a maximum overflow, which gets doubled because of the stone + 2-3 chops which also get doubled).
 
I played a test from the test save with what I posted and I think it works out quite well.

Wheel and BW are teched on T49 or 17 turns from now (mind you that due to discount differences between test and real game this may vary a turn up or down).

Capital goes warrior-warrior-worker-settler-1 turn of something (other settler I'd propose). Both warriors coincide with growth to size 3 and 4 respectively. 1 warrior covers deer/wheat area in the north, the other the gem area.

Golden Fleece settled on T35, sheep done on T39. Like in the previous SGOTM, it has a nice 2 commerce from being riverside! Neilmeister being an Aussie must want us all to like sheep. :mischief: Mine done T44, road done T46. Worker from capital meanwhile has roaded the tile NW of gold and then deer for TR connection on T46. GF-worker goes to mine grass hill SE. Other worker heads back to cap and roads any of the tiles W of the cap, so settler wins a turn moving to gem spot.

Golden Fleece goes warrior-1 turn of warrior to grow to size 3-worker.

Cap finishes settler on T48, it moves, we hit end turn and we get BW. So we still would have time to redirect settler if bronze pops up, otherwise continue to gems. (I'd definitely stop after BW is in). For reference, at this point masonry would take 4 turns, just like PH. With gems online tech would get yet another boost.

I must admit that I continued with masonry and tried for GWall immediately with a settler whip in the cap and a chop, but I got beaten by an AI. Nonetheless it can be built quite quick. However, it won't be a certainty. Likewise, I remember from the test save some weeks back already, that I got beaten to the Oracle in 1560BC. So we shouldn't count firmly on early wonders, though test and live saves might be night and day regarding this. Of course gambling on a wonder with a multiplier in place (GW) never hurts too much regarding fail cash as consolation prize.

Also worth noting I barely had barb trouble in the test save. The lion that we can already see south of gold might be a bit troublesome though if our warrior won't hold against it...
 
A note on the test save - all the players are Toku of somewhere. That might affect wonders in the test save. I looked it up in the guide and he builds wonders sometimes. In the real save if we have someone Industrious I'm sure it will make things a whole lot different. I think we can probably decide after we see if we have BW. The way the mapped is laid out I don't think it will be too difficult to utilize warriors for fog and spawn-busting.
 
My guess on the map is that we are on the west coast of a continent/pangea with Toku and Hammu blocking us north and south and mountains blocking the middle. There could well be other AIs to the east of us which we won´t meet for a while.

I´d agree on wheel>bw and then think about Gwall, Gwall costs 5 warriors some of which we can build while growing and researching wheel>BW and it may well be that 4-5 warriors will be enough to fogbust Novo California (that´s us).
 
I'm wondering if settler before worker will be better in the long run, it'd give us Swine before Pearls earlier, though the tiles will be unimproved until turn 48 (and no TR either)...

.... tested: nope, it'll be slower in the long run. The unimproved tiles aren't too bad, but the loss of the TR tips the scale.

About TGW: I don't think it is necessary for barb protection given that the Toku's are rather close. The GSpy however, might just come in handy.
 
If no further objections (we seem to be in agreement) I'll play tomorrow night up until wheel and BW according to the test described above. After that I think we should take a little break and think seriously about wonders and how they fit in our path to victory. And test feasibility.
 
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