SGOTM 15 - Maple Sporks

My next unorthodox idea is revisiting culture victory. We´ve got hinduism already, if we oracle col and bulb theo that gives us confu and christianity. We´ve got space for six cities for national wonders, we´ve got marble and stone for world wonders, we also have easily defensible borders with mountains and two choke points.

I am aware that the idea of axe rushing Toku as the first stage of domination has developed a lot of momentum. However back in the real game its still only 2000bc, marble city hasn´t been founded and not a single axe has been built. This is the time to decide on the easiest/fastest victory condition.
 
The point about Osaka's defense I was trying to make is that if it's defended still by just 1 archer, that we could maybe spare 2 axes to capture it immediately... I certainly agree the bulk of our stack should head to Kyoto asap regardless.

Agree about scouting Japanese borders.
 
@pigswill, I think culture is just inherently too slow. Check HoF dates, look at fifth element's culture win last game where arguably the land was better and where having to kill the wiz was an easier condition than having to stay hindu. The latter means wars, hardly any trade or none. Also no free religion which is nice for culture. So far the land is very food poor too, no nice GP farm available to spawn many GAs. Maybe Toku's cap is a nice GP farm, but then we'll have to rush anyway. :D

In short, I think the circumstances are far from ideal for culture, which already is a slow VC as it is. Besides, a bunch of gory wars are more fun!
 
Beelining Kyoto sounds logical to me. The last thing we want is Toku whipping too many PRO archers. Plus as Sengir has correctly stated, it can be on a hill, next to a river and can have walls, whereas none of this is true about Osaka. If it has 1 archer defending, very well...we can take it. Otherwise we should head for Kyoto straight away.

As for numbers, 12 axes should be enough for Kyoto in my estimation. IF we go for Osaka first, then more are needed since we'll likely suffer some losses. Maybe 15?

Also...which warrior should I use for the scouting? The one currently fogbusting in the SW?
 
I think 12 would be good under normal circumstances, but keep in mind that the city was presettled, so might have a suprisingly decent defence. That's why I figured 16 (which was the average of what I needed in 4 runs). Without walls/not across river, 12 should do, but I'd rather not be surprised in this case. Also, if there are more then 4 archers, we might get into trouble with 12 axes even if there's no wall.
Adding three for Osaka (one archer) is fine with me, especially since we should be able to take the city on the first turn. The main SoD should be positioned elsewhere though.


About Culture: I pretty much agree with nocho: the land just isn't good enough for an early culture win IMHO. 9 cities is optimal, we have land for 6, and even that's without high-food-site(s).
 
Just a short chime in from me:

Maybe time the DOW on Togu to start with a worker steal if possible. Even if we Cease Fire before totally anihilating Togu, we'll have a worker for it, instead of them being holed up in his last city.
 
A worker steal would be nice of course, if circumstantial. :)

@Ororo, I'd take the GF one (there was one there, right? :)). It is closest by and now we can emergency whip if necessary.
 
If the opportunity presents itself, we'll steal workers, but I'd rather not declare early/late just for a worker.

I think there's a worker in GF; we should re-evaluate our fogbusting as well, I think the SW warrior isn't needed atm, so it can move to GF instead.
 
Seems like we´re going for Oracle>CoL and axe rush. Fair enough.

Probably best to leave SW warrior near marble until the city is built and can spawnbust itself.
 
Back after I was scared away by nocho's spoiler :lol:

Testing question...

What are you building in Pearls Before Swine and MarbleCrap as first builds? Warriors or axes I assume?

Be aware that barbs cities can spawn in our backyard even after we settle Marble Crap. There are only two tiles available for it but it is still a possibility.
 
Sorry for pulling a Houdini.

Not that I think this negates our Oracle>Col, tech Theo plan but odds are we will be the founder of 3 religions. It will certainly alter the diplomatic landscape we were hoping for by hogging all the religions.

Speaking of religion - I had a thought for after we get Alpha (not sure when that will be) - what if after we take Toku's smaller cities (Osaka comes to mind) we spread Hinduism and then upon meeting a new AI we gift it to them? It could be a way to get a cheap AP victory provided we can meet everyone. Or we ship a settler and mish pair and settle near Hammu and then gift him the city.

As to meeting everyone - just a hunch that the map might be similar to a maze with the mountains being the "walls". If after we get past Toku and it's a dead end it would force us to have to go through Hammu in order to bash the next AI.
 
Be aware that barbs cities can spawn in our backyard even after we settle Marble Crap. There are only two tiles available for it but it is still a possibility.

I'd have to check our dotmap, but those spots don't happen to be our city spots right :D ?
 
Which 2 tiles? The only 2 tiles that will be able to spawn barbs after we settle our 2 cities are these 2. But those can be effectively fogbusted by our warrior. So I think I'll just use the warrior from Golden Fleece for scouting purposes.

Spoiler :


Note: I can't post a revised dotmap since I don't have access to my civ4 just yet. That's why I used the old screenshot.
 
I did a run last evening without paying too much attention to details, but some things are maybe worth mentioning.

* In the test Toku's capital indeed had 4 archers defending it. However, in the test save it didn't have walls nor did we have to attack crossriver, so could take it with 8 axes. Can't remember whether it was on a hill but I think it wasn't.
I think we should indeed move all axes towards his capital immediately after DoW. Quite possibly we'll need them all. Any axes that lag behind might take on Osaka.

* Osaka got engulfed in our culture quite soon. It's good to build an Oracle in the AI's face. :D Indeed it makes whipping more difficult for the AI and we may even flip it. I'm fairly confident that at least we'll get hold of the corn, even if Osaka produces some culture (from monument or religion).

* Road optimization silliness: I think it's most beneficial to hace a road 1N of GoldenFleece, 1E and 2E1S (corn). Almost all axes coming from the west with their 2 movement on roads end their turn at some point in GF. Then it takes a full turn to cross the river. If instead of ending their turn in GF they end 1N, they already have crossed the river. We can profit from the increased speed by having a road 1N of GF and further as described. This is especially of importance once the attack is underway our imminent.

* I'm wondering about those warriors we upgrade (if we do). Of course all warriors we have are without promotions but of course it would be cool to have a CR promo on them. Then the current warriors can remain as city garrisons/scouts/fogbusters. I guess it's also inherently more value for money to spend 80 gold on upgrading a warrior with XP than one without. So maybe in one of our barracks cities we can build 2 warriors at some point?
To take it even a bit further, could we leverage this by building barracks first in marble? Now in marble we'd be building promo-less axes, but rax+2 warriors is 90 hammers where 2 axes are 70, not that much of a difference. Besides any subsequent axes would also benefit from a promo of course. Arguably 3 promoed axes are about equal to 4 promoless ones.

* I think when cap is back to size 4 after settler whip and subsequent worker, it should gift the FP to marble and take bronze. Then when it's size 5 it can also gift corn if we build a farm somewhere for cap. Cap is then at max hammer configuration, first for axes then for mids, while marble can profit from rapid growth for whipping and/or possibly for hiring caste scientists not too much later.

* As I marched on Kyoto I switched GoldenFleece to 3 scientist with caste. However, by that point it has had the Oracle for 10+ turns and thus the chances for a GPr are rather high, despite the 3 scientists. In fact, I popped one. Nice for a theo bulb, but as I tried to argue the other day maybe not totally ideal for bulbing asap to engineering. On the other hand, it can't really be avoided, so maybe we should just leave that up to the RNG. :) If we get a priest, possibly we just have to self tech MC. However we had to self tech theo in the other scenario so that's maybe not too much of a difference.
 
^ are you saying we might not want to attack Osaka at all, and just wait for it to cultureflip towards us after we have taken the capital?

BTW, if possible, do we want to take out Togu completely, or leave him with something?
 
Two things to consider: ratio of attackers to defenders and city upkeep costs. City upkeep is probably manageable if we´re swopping to caste/rep but attackers:defenders is difficult to predict in advance.
If we´re swopping to caste/rep then some time before that we´ll need to grow cities and maybe build some farms.
 
^ are you saying we might not want to attack Osaka at all, and just wait for it to cultureflip towards us after we have taken the capital?

BTW, if possible, do we want to take out Togu completely, or leave him with something?

Cultureflip is certainly a possibility.

As for the second question - depends on whether we tech Alpha/Toku techs Alpha.

Two things to consider: ratio of attackers to defenders and city upkeep costs. City upkeep is probably manageable if we´re swopping to caste/rep but attackers:defenders is difficult to predict in advance.
If we´re swopping to caste/rep then some time before that we´ll need to grow cities and maybe build some farms.

Agree. Once we're in a comfortable position (=both Kyoto and Osaka are under our control), we should start building more farms and focus on growth mostly.
 
We have some odds for culture-flipping yes, though for now I assume we'll have to take the city by force (though if we decide to leave Toku with one city, it might as well be Osaka, as it'll be very crappy for him).

And Kyoto in the save is indeed not on a hill (I edited the city to be on a hill and have walls, then moved extra to attack across water :crazyeye: )
 
Sorry, just questions from me, not answers. But it might start some thoughts.

Can we deduce from the EspPoints whether Hammy and Togu have met eachother, and thus if Hammy will be pissed of by us attacking his friend?
Similarly, can we know if Togu has met someone else to his east? This to know if we can push on exploring to the east, or if it is a dead end surrounded by mountains?
 
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