SGOTM 15 - Maple Sporks

You can check the relations-screen to see whether civs you have met, have met eachother. IIRC they have met.

There might be ways to know whether AI's have met others based on EP (I know it is possible to determine whether you're alone with an AI or not), but I'm not familiar with it.
 
It's possible to determine from EPs whether an AI has met other AI, but to determine how many is nigh impossible imo.
 
It's possible to determine from EPs whether an AI has met other AI, but to determine how many is nigh impossible imo.
That's what I was afraid of. I couldn't wrap my head around how to go about it either. We'll just have to find the hard way.
 
Here's what I can figure out as far as EP's and whether or not Hammu has met anyone other than us and Toku.

We met Toku at the start of turn 4 and Hammu at the start of turn 11. So for turns 4-10 = 7 turns x 4 ep's/turn = 28 ep's we spent on Toku. At turn 11 our ep's split between the two of them for another 40 turns. So 40 x 2 = 80. Our total for Toku is the initial 28 +80 = 108 ep's we spent on him. Hammu is 80 because we have known him for 40 turns.

Now I can back track and figure out that Toku and Hammu met on the start of turn 14. I can get this because Toku knew us from turns 4 - 13 only (10 turns x 4 = 40) at which point assuming he split his points 50/50 for the next 37 turns x 2 = 74 + 40 and you get the 114 Toku has spent on us.

Hammu is harder for me to figure. He met us only for 3 turns prior to meeting Toku so he accumulated 12 points toward us and then if he split points for the next 37 turns that would be 74 + 12 = 88 toward us and 74 toward Toku. But Hammu has spent 119 toward us. That leaves him with 43 to spend elsewhere. If I was to guess I would think that at some point he split his points 3/1 but tbh it is truly a guess. I do think we can be fairly safe in saying he hasn't met anyone else. This also assumes that Hammu met us first before anyone else.
 
Here's what I can figure out as far as EP's and whether or not Hammu has met anyone other than us and Toku.

We met Toku at the start of turn 4 and Hammu at the start of turn 11. So for turns 4-10 = 7 turns x 4 ep's/turn = 28 ep's we spent on Toku. At turn 11 our ep's split between the two of them for another 40 turns. So 40 x 2 = 80. Our total for Toku is the initial 28 +80 = 108 ep's we spent on him. Hammu is 80 because we have known him for 40 turns.

Now I can back track and figure out that Toku and Hammu met on the start of turn 14. I can get this because Toku knew us from turns 4 - 13 only (10 turns x 4 = 40) at which point assuming he split his points 50/50 for the next 37 turns x 2 = 74 + 40 and you get the 114 Toku has spent on us.

Hammu is harder for me to figure. He met us only for 3 turns prior to meeting Toku so he accumulated 12 points toward us and then if he split points for the next 37 turns that would be 74 + 12 = 88 toward us and 74 toward Toku. But Hammu has spent 119 toward us. That leaves him with 43 to spend elsewhere. If I was to guess I would think that at some point he split his points 3/1 but tbh it is truly a guess. I do think we can be fairly safe in saying he hasn't met anyone else. This also assumes that Hammu met us first before anyone else.

So if I read this correctly, there's a good chance that we're alone with Togu and Hammu on our little bit of land, or at least sufficiently boxed in by mountains. Maybe our only way out is the west. Consistent with the storyline about battling vikings at sea...

Hammu could be explained if the AI have more points to spend, due to a castle (+25%) in the presettled capital maybe? In that case maybe Togu also has one, and HAS met someone else.

:eek: That makes me think: better test how many axes we need if Kyoto is on a hill with a castle...
 
If Hammu has a castle, he'd have put 50 (turns 4 - 13 => 10 turns x 5 = 50) + 37 x 3 (due to rounding) = 50+111 =161, which is way too high. The numbers of Toku fit too nicely, so I think Norvin's assumption that he switched to 1/3 ratio has more merit.
So for now I'm thinking that we can discount the possibility of a castle in Kyoto.
 
Norvin/Nocho, do any of you still have the autosave from your turnset when you met Togu/Hammy? At that point we could see whether they put 4 or 5 EPs towards us...
 
I don't have any saves anymore, but we met both on Norvin's watch. In any case, I wouldn't worry about any defenses more exotic than walls. If the mapmaker decided to put stuff in those capitals we'll find out earliest by dowing... Don't feel like waiting for alpha and spies to check for something highly speculative. If Kyoto is unassailable, it's no shame to backtrack and just take Osaka while waiting for better weapons imo.
 
I loaded the old saves:

Code:
Year           Toku                   Hammu
3560BC         40/30                  10/2
3200BC         74/48                  55/20
3040BC         80/56                  75/28
2720BC         88/72                  101/44
2000BC         114/108                119/80
@3560BC we've put 7*4 + 1*2 on Toku; and 1*2 on Hammu
As they met us at their turn, they've put one more turns worth of EP on us.
Therefor: 40/8 = 5EP/turn for Toku and 10/2 for Hammu.

So there's a castle after all it seems.
 
Castle means walls as well, and I'm going to assume hills as well (though we might be able to discern that by moving a warrior next to the border and some foggazing, maybe we'll be able to locate rivers as well). We might have to reconsider our numbers.
 
I don't have any saves anymore, but we met both on Norvin's watch. In any case, I wouldn't worry about any defenses more exotic than walls. If the mapmaker decided to put stuff in those capitals we'll find out earliest by dowing... Don't feel like waiting for alpha and spies to check for something highly speculative. If Kyoto is unassailable, it's no shame to backtrack and just take Osaka while waiting for better weapons imo.
If we can know it without dowing, all the better, as we'll be better at timing our DoW. I don't have time for testing how many we need in which scenario (walls+castle, walls+castle+hills, walls+castle+river, walls+castle+hills+river). Might be able to do so tonight/tomorrow.
 
If we're sure about the castle and by inference of walls (though neilmeister didn't necessarily have to put both, but I guess it's save to assume walls in case of castle), then we better abort the plans for getting Kyoto now. Maybe Osaka, but Kyoto with walls, castle, very likely hill and prot archers will be an unsuccesful bloodbath. Better to move in with cats AND use a spy to bring down city defenses.
If you're right about the castle, and you may well be, our hammers right now would be better spent on other things than only on axes.
 
Btw, looking at EPs from 2720 to 2000, I think Hammu and Toku did meat other AIs. Hammu spent 1 of his available 5 EP per turn on us. Toku 26/18=1.44 per turn on us. In both their cases can't imagine they spent more on eachother than on us, their worst enemy. Besides, 26 in 18 turns is a curious number. It means Toku changed EP assignment during my set and most likely reason must be having met someone else.
 
:mad: mmm, darn, I hate to be right.

Let's not put off the attack completely until we (I mean you, sorry, no time) have tested if an attack is feasible with more axes. There have been some great discussions about it, so let's not discard it immediately.

Alternative is to focus more on settlers and teching cats and spies...

To open it all up again: could this be a way of Neilmeister to push us towards culture? What about sending a WB to look across the water once we have fishing?

EDIT: we could capture Osaka by culture, no need to DOW. A DOW would be good for scouting Togu's land, and passing through it, meeting some other AI, and maybe extorting a tech for peace...
 
@3560BC we've put 7*4 + 1*2 on Toku; and 1*2 on Hammu
As they met us at their turn, they've put one more turns worth of EP on us.
Therefor: 40/8 = 5EP/turn for Toku and 10/2 for Hammu.

So there's a castle after all it seems.

You cannot know how happy I am that you figured this out for yourselves.......

I was reading your thread yesterday thinking that you will hate me once you got to Kyoto.

edit: and I am sorry if this is spoilerish in any way
 
It is a bit spoilerish, neil, in the sense you kind of confirmed a growing suspicion. Not that I really mind. :p

I say proceed as planned tech- and wonderwise, but delay DoW until after at least construction, possibly alpha for city revolting spies. EP on Toku, not Hammu! Rethink where to settle marble, probably settle cowdeer and norterngold.
 
Good catch on that castle...I would never have thought of it. But then again: my SGOTM experience is a bit limited.

Ok... I'm kind of lost now. Where do we want to get to during my set? At the very least we will probably have redo our test games using a more peaceful approach.

So maybe my set should be: Get to Caste/Rep, tech as far as you can, start farming GSs, maybe settle the deer/cow site?
And then the next set: Get to Alpha/Construction, build the military and DOW Toku?

Or do we start building the axes during my set?

I don't know... I've kind of lost the general direction about where we should be heading after that whole castle-discovery thing.
 
Well, let's be methodical about it and start by forgetting all we discussed about the immediate axe rush... What would you do given the present situation, knowing Toku's cap is a too tough a nut to crack with merely axes?

Of course first question is: do we still want to take out Toku asap? "Asap" meaning as soon as reasonably possible? :) Personally I'd answer yes to that question. To make it reasonably possible, we want cats (and spies). Therefore we'd need to tech to construction (and alpha). I do think now that we have a bigger window the spy thing obviously is also good for the scouting and finding other AIs (you do meet an AI if you find his land with a spy, right?!).
Of course this window also allows to settle a bit more, which will only help with producing enough units for Toku.

So roughly next on the agenda is:
- Settle PearlySwine (which we still haven't :p)
- Settle marble. To me it's not clear anymore whether it's better on marble or SW which longterm is a better city, but slower to get going.
- Oracle CoL.
- Settle deercow and/or northern gold
- Start on mids
- Get barracks out in production spots and get some, but only some, axes out. For the moment more as a precaution than anything else.
- Tech masonry, PH, writing, pottery, math, construction, alpha (IW, aesth, MC).
- Get some workers out.
- Grow organically in anticipation of a spell in caste to go pop some serious GSs.

Can't say what a good stopping point for next set is, first stop Oracle sounds logical at least.
 
First off big-time kudos to DS for pointing us down this path to finding castles. Secondly, thanks to the number crunchers for getting the evidence we needed to prove it. I wonder how many other teams are going to catch this subtle difference.

Does a quick chopped GW make sense at this point?

Or would a GSpy throw off our Great People plans (ie make it more expensive to pop our GS's)

I would think a GSpy would be an excellent way to scout out Toku (no fear of capture) as well as get the necessary points to revolt his capital.

Oracle still in Golden Fleece for the culture pressure and taking of the corn tile still makes a ton of sense.

Keep this in mind with all of our planning. If we are going to take out Toku, we need to plan on finishing the job before he gets to longbows and/or Samurai. I dread the thought of longbows in Kyoto.
 
So let's talk about city builds first:

Stone Hill: Settler -> Worker is obvious. Then maybe grow on Mids (???) and whip a settler into them once we reach size 5/6 (2/3-pop whip with maximum overflow, which gets doubled thanks to Marble). However this might be a little bit of over-commiting, building the Mids this early. This whole delayed rush is a bit confusing, I usually either rex or rush (or prepare for the rush to be precise) at this point.

Golden Fleece: Worker -> Barracks (until Priesthood is in) -> Oracle -> finish Barrracks (?) -> ??? (Axes?)

MarbleCrap: (I like it on Marble since it saves A LOT of worker turns and the crab can't be improved until at least Engineering is bulbed): Military builds? (Barracks -> Axes/Warriors)

Pearls before Swine: Warrior -> something -> Granary. We could maybe consider building Stonehenge here for failgold?

DeerCow: It will probably be settled towards the end of my turnset so I would just go Barracks
 
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