SGOTM 15 - Maple Sporks

I'm not sure about settling another two cities at this point for two reasons i) 200 hammers of production that could be invested into rax/axes for rush ii) increased city maintenance after eliminating Toku.

If we're going for a 'specialist economy' then its farms rather than cottages.
 
I've had a very hard time accessing the forums the last few days, but I manages to get a couple of tests done. Here's the plan:


Plan (until Oracle is done, I'll probably play some more turns afterwards, but I thinks it's better to play the set in two parts):
Cities:
Stone Hill: Settler (whip) > Worker > Mids; grow on corn+FP work bronze at size 3; at size 5 work 3GH+bronze+farm;
GF: Worker > SH/Mids (failgold) > Oracle; works Gold + Sheep + Mine/Corn; gets two or three chops, depending on timing of writing
Pearly Swine: Warrior > SH(failgold) > Library; works Gems + Pigs on growth; gets farms
Marble Hill: Barracks > Axes (or settler/worker): gets Corn+FP when StoneHill is done with them.

Workers:
PearlySwine worker: immediately mine gem > finish road 1E of gem > pasture > farm
Current GF worker: mine bronze > road tile 1S (forest NE of marble) > road tile NE
CapWorker: move E and invests 1 turn in farm, cancel > help the other worker finish that road 2NE of marble (=2SE of capital)
Depending on timing of Oracle/Writing, either both move to help chopping or only one. In case of the latter, one of them moves to finish the farm at the capital
New GF worker: Chop forest N of GH > Chop Forest N-NW of GH; depending on timing either chop the forest NW of GH as well, or move to farm the corn (assuming we get it).

Tech:
Masonry > Priesthood > Writing > (pick CoL) > Math

Miscellaneous:
GF warrior goes exploring
Switch to slavery asap.
 
Same here about forum access Sengir.

The plan sounds good. One thought - if we leave copper unconnected to Stone Hill and Pearly Swine we can build warriors instead of axes. The extra :) from gems isn't really needed at this point.
 
Technical point: we can build axes and warriors in the same city until hunting is learned, spears obselete warriors. Better to road piggygems before mine, same commerce from 4 turns of TR as 1 turn of mined gems and more time for hinduism to spread.

Also I'm not sure we need a fourth worker before pyramids (not in my tests anyway). The sooner we get pyramids, the sooner we switch to casterep and the faster we research.
 
Minor detail...swap to slavery only when we need to whip...Unless civic costs don't increase with the switch.

Forums were down for everyone yesterday...hopefully its fixed now.
 
Sounds good to me. Hadn't really considered fail gold, but is okay with me. GW might do for that purpose too. Be sure to have stone hooked up to the cities planning to do fail gold builds.

Better to road piggygems before mine, same commerce from 4 turns of TR as 1 turn of mined gems and more time for hinduism to spread.
With that road we won't have TR yet (cap is not connected yet to south river), so I do think it's better to mine gems first.

Also I'm not sure we need a fourth worker before pyramids (not in my tests anyway). The sooner we get pyramids, the sooner we switch to casterep and the faster we research.
Frankly I never tested with only 3 workers, but I do think that 4 workers is about right. 5 weren't needed in my tests either.

---

I did some tests on friday before the major outage.

Some points/highlights:
- Got mids T75
- Osaka revolted to us T83!
- Shortly after deer/cow was settled the cap popped borders (500 culture) to grab the cow. Convenient to not need culture in deer/cow.
- Settled northern gold too. Quite nice city by itself with deer (5 food!), farms, gold.
- Had to squeeze in hunting after maths for deer.
- Played all the way to engineering which was bulbed 125BC. That could've been significantly sooner (10 turns at least) if I would have had more hindu spreads (in that sense agree with pigswill that getting up TRs asap to increase those odds is important).
Had 3 cities with 3/4 specs, but only 1 had hindu, so pacifism's use was limited. Cap was not one of those cities, maybe should've been (assured hindu ;)).
- For that reason, maybe better sit on the confu/tao missionary rather than using...
- I was building a SoD meanwhile, due to pacifism nearly in strike if it wasn't for hiring some merchants. I'm now wondering about dropping caste after construction, whip out army, attack, go back to caste. I stayed caste all the way, didn't attack either yet (with caste and max specs hired, only cap was producing significant units until the newest cities contributed near the end; didn't produce anything in Osaka as we can't count on that (yet :D).
 
As nocho mentions, the road doesn't complete the TR, so mining first is stronger. I do agree that getting up TR's asap is necessary.

With only 3 workers, I'd have to delay the Oracle by a bunch of turn (chops come in later). Also, I think we have use for all of them for some time to come, especially as we're planning to settle some more cities relatively soon (and we need some extra farms around our current cities).
About not settling additional cities: I think the northern gold site and the cow/deer site are strong enough to pull their own weight relatively soon. I'm not really worried about crashing our economy: we'll have CoL and libraries to dig us out of the hole, and alpha and currency are not far of.

Not using the missionary is good. Other options are: send him scouting, let him spread to a city which has a religion already.

Slavery didn't add to the civic-cost in the test-save, but I'll check in the live-save as well.
 
Had a quick run through 4 cities, Oracle>Col, Pyramids, Theo, Cataxes etc.
Oracle 1520
Pyramids 1000
Theology 950 (prophet).
Apostolic Palace 750 (GE)
Osaka flipped 525
Dow 400 (8 cats, 8 axes, spear).
Kyoto (with castle) 325.
Satsuma 300
Kyoto 275.
 
What was your techsituation at that point (and also: does it make a difference for the first part of my set? otherwise I can play today/tomorrow)
 
And where did you settle the fourth city pigswill...I assumed you weren't including Osaka in that rundown.
 
Don't hate me for it, but right now I'm having second thoughts on Oracling CoL. I would like to do a test run with Metal Casting after all...

However, for me Sengir can go ahead and play up until masonary and priesthood now, I don't see anything change those first 8-ish turns. MC would require pottery instead of writing, hence a stopping point there.

Case in point is that staying a long time in caste seems to nerf growth and especially production significantly, not surprising if you hire max specialists in nearly all the cities. Hence SoD creation was rather sluggish in my test run. All this meanwhile supposing we want to bulb engineering.

So I hope to do a test run with Oracling MC this evening.

The case for MC is basically that we need 2 GSs less to bulb engineering, as we don't bulb philo and don't need one for MC itself. The counter is that we'll need to whip/chop two libraries to be able to hire scientists. Of course it also gives only 2 scientists instead of 3 or 4, but again, we only need 2 GSs instead of 4. Besides we'll need less cities running specs so have more cities for SoD buildup and hence possibly can attack earlier. Key is how quick we can research in this scenario. We'll need to self-tech math, construction, alpha, aesthetics, IW. However, if we can attack earlier, conquest money will help, fewer turns of having to pay for a standing army etcetera. Besides, we all know slavery is an uber-civic we won't have to drop at all in this case.) Also of consideration is that if for now we avoid CoL and hence philo, we won't be founding religions which will make hindu spread naturally far more easily. And having someone beat us to CoL will give more religious strife among AIs. ;)

Again, all this with the engineering bulb in mind. Is that still the plan? I still like it, but I wanna ask the roster explicitely. Not least because pigswill keeps on bulbing theology rather early in his tests, which invalidates the engineering path. :)
If we don't care about engineering, then probably the CoL path would be more versatile.
 
:run: :aargh: :spank: :help: :gripe: :twitch: :wallbash: :trouble: :faint: [pissed]


Ahem... why no nocho, I'm absolutely fine with you testing MC instead of CoL :cry:


In all seriousness, I do think it's worth considering it, so make your testrun, then I'll just play the first 8 turns tonight. I'm still in favor of bulbing Engineering (and GP-bulbing Theo shortly afterwards)
 
Turn 0:
Check civics: slavery doesn't add to the cost, but I'll wait to see if settling PearlySwine will make a difference.
Set EP on Toku (might as well)
Wake up warrior in GF and move him south.

Turn 1:
Spoiler culture :

We get a forest on the plains N-NW of Stone Hill
Settle PearlySwine
Manage to screw up the micro as I forgot to wake up the PearlySwine worker last turn, so now the road is done. I also misclicked the GF worker [pissed]
Slavery would add 1 gold to civic costs, so I'll delay for now.

Turn 2:
Nothing

Turn 3:
Revolt to slavery, whip settler in Stone Hill

Turn 4:
Stone Hill: Settler > Worker
Not much scouting to be done near Toku :(

Turn 5:
Masonry in, set tech to Priesthood
GF: worker > SH

Turn 6:
Settle Marble Hill; start barracks
We get a Hindy spread in GoldenFleece

Turn 7:
Stone Hill: Worker > Mids
Barb Warrior shows up at Golden Fleece (scouting warrior is returning and is home in time but I'd rather not risk it, so I slot in a warrior in place of SH)
Also: We got corn in Golden Fleece, so city is set to growth.

Turn 8:
Priesthood is in, set tech to Writing as a placeholder
The barbwarrior moves away from GF, so we don't have to finish the warrior just yet; I slot in the Oracle.
Stonehenge got BIDL, so we got our investment back right away (32g); TGW has been build already as well, so no wonders for failgold available atm.

Spoiler turnlog :
Turn 51, 1960 BC: Delhi has been founded.
Turn 51, 1960 BC: The Great Wall has been built in a far away land!

Turn 53, 1880 BC: Gandhi adopts Slavery!

Turn 54, 1840 BC: You have discovered Masonry!

Turn 55, 1800 BC: Hinduism has spread in Golden Fleece.

Turn 56, 1760 BC: The borders of Golden Fleece are about to expand.
Turn 56, 1760 BC: MarbleHill has been founded.
Turn 56, 1760 BC: The borders of Golden Fleece have expanded!
Turn 56, 1760 BC: Stonehenge has been built in a far away land!
Turn 56, 1760 BC: A Forest has grown near Stone Hill!

Turn 57, 1720 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Golden Fleece!
Turn 57, 1720 BC: You have discovered Priesthood!
Turn 57, 1720 BC: Golden Fleece can no longer work on Stonehenge. The lost ℤ is converted into 32ℴ!
Turn 57, 1720 BC: Judaism has been founded in a distant land!

Turn 58, 1680 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Golden Fleece!
Turn 58, 1680 BC: Golden Fleece can hurry Warrior for 1⇴ with 15ℤ overflow, 8ℴ added to the treasury, and +1⇤ for 10 turns.
Turn 58, 1680 BC: Stone Hill will grow to size 3 on the next turn.


We discovered some more land:
Spoiler north :

Spoiler toku :

The Save
 
Happy to hear we got a hindu spread in GoldenFleece as well as having gotten hold of the corn.

Have to bathe my daughter now and then eat, hope to do a little testing in a couple of hours, if the wife won't claim the civ PC, that is. :run:
 
Forest spread in Stone Hill was nice as well. We can only hope the culture flip in Osaka mirrors our test results.

Nice start Sengir!
 
Okay, sorry for the interruption, go ahead with CoL.

Going MC route, the quickest I got our 3rd great person was in 300 BC, but by then I didn't even have aesthetics yet, nor IW. Partly again because of a big standing army costing a lot of cash, it might have attacked a bit sooner, though construction wasn't in until 725 BC and obviously we need a window for building cats. Also, built library in GF so as to speed up first GP (Oracle contributing GPP). That happened, but the 2nd GP I popped was also a great prophet at 25%. That's a too big gamble to take. If we built the library in a "clean" city to avoid this, 3rd great person will come even later than 300 BC. I had the other library in PearlySwine. However, general tech pace did lack, comparatively.

I also noticed that in the test save our capital is NOT the Hindu Holy city. Hence it didn't spread... In the real game it should be spreading a lot more, so that takes away a bit of my doubt I had in my CoL run when I had only one city with hindu profiting from pacifism. Of course in the real save we already have a spread.

All in all CoL must be the more flexible approach, also in case we drop the engineering path at some point for whatever reason. We do need testing later to get a feel for how long to stay in caste and for which cities to dedicate for producing great people.


Finally, I notice in the real save Toku already has alpha!!! Rechecking the 2000BC save I just saw he already had writing at that point (OB available as option, redded out). Would such soon alpha mean his capital is an extra tasty prize? :)
 
I ran through the motions again on the test-save, I think I've been pretty accurate.
 

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Okay, sorry for the interruption, go ahead with CoL.
Ok, I'll do some micro tests soon
I also noticed that in the test save our capital is NOT the Hindu Holy city. Hence it didn't spread... In the real game it should be spreading a lot more, so that takes away a bit of my doubt I had in my CoL run when I had only one city with hindu profiting from pacifism. Of course in the real save we already have a spread.
I fixed that in the new test-save


Finally, I notice in the real save Toku already has alpha!!! Rechecking the 2000BC save I just saw he already had writing at that point (OB available as option, redded out). Would such soon alpha mean his capital is an extra tasty prize? :)

Huh, I didn't notice that. Also, upon reviewing the logfiles, I noticed that Judaism got found on the last IBT. Hooray for religious strife (hopefully). Is that the CoL religion now (because of the religion swapping going on?), I kinda lost track.
 
I believe that should be someone snagging Monotheism to get Judaism rather than CoL.

But if someone did get CoL then hooray for religious strife indeed!

Anyone else notice that what appears to be Toku's cap is settled one off the coast negating the fish tile?

Fingers crossed for a strong capital indeed. I would think gems in the capital are the most likely given the amount of green land near his capital. But I wouldn't be opposed to finding some furs or silver either.
 
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