SGOTM 09 - Murky Waters

LowtherCastle · Mar 25, 2009

jesusin said:
You build parts while you research other techs that enable other parts. You leave a not too expensive part for the last researched part. You reserve the best production city for it. You chop the turn you get the last tech. The following turn you have the last part built. Time from last tech discovered to ship launched == 1 turn.

It's well-known how this sequences and it's the 2 engines and the stasis chamber that each require 670h. We could slingshot Genetics to open up the stasis chamber, but we can't research Fusion until all its prereq techs are known. That only leaves Ecology and Composites, iirc, which at that point should take 4 turns at most if we've done our job well. So we have to build both engines in 4 turns, or do Genetics after Fusion and build the engines in 6 turns and the chamber in 4 turns. That's it. By my analysis, that should be doable in our IW city, with a couple of chops at the beginning or if Sushi gives us enough food, with some engineers hired.

Erkon · Mar 25, 2009

jesusin said:
You build parts while you research other techs that enable other parts. You leave a not too expensive part for the last researched part. You reserve the best production city for it. You chop the turn you get the last tech. The following turn you have the last part built. Time from last tech discovered to ship launched == 1 turn.
...
You can't build executives in useless cities but only on the vital ones you want to improve.

Hmm, the number of parts have changed in BtS, yes? What if we have rocket science rates, and research faster than build parts? Anyway, you are probably right.

Why can I not build executives in useless cities? We found Mining Inc in the city with Wall Street, then spread to a city with medium production that we wont use for parts/wonders. That city can build the executives, yes?

jesusin · Mar 26, 2009

Erkon said:
Hmm, the number of parts have changed in BtS, yes? What if we have rocket science rates, and research faster than build parts? Anyway, you are probably right.

Imaging I were wrong (me!??? :eek:

) and it takes 3 turns. What do you want to speed up, our 100 tunrs setting up an empire, our 100 turns of crazy research or our 3 turns of building parts?

It should be easy to find a better use for a GE.

Erkon said:
Why can I not build executives in useless cities? We found Mining Inc in the city with Wall Street, then spread to a city with medium production that we wont use for parts/wonders. That city can build the executives, yes?

Yes. (if only slowly spreading Mines Inc).

LowtherCastle · Mar 26, 2009

Got it!

LC's Turnset 1 Pre-Play-Plan

Pre-Play-Plan OVERVIEW
Open save and fog-gaze more carefully. If nothing new, move scout NW to gather info on where to settle. Settle asap, probably 1S. Build worker, start farming, explore our region, westward, and southward. Scouting up to Agri will attempt to map our region to help us decide what we'll research next.

BUILD QUEUE
worker-warrior(partial)-settler?

UNIT MOVES
Scout NW-SW. Stop to evaluate that information.
Scout westward, then southward, with initial focus on mapping our region.
Move settler 1S. Decide whether to settle there or not.
Scout further SE, then maybe loop back to see the marble spot.

WORKER ACTIONS
farm corn1
farm corn2

CITY MM
max wkr and settler builds

DIPLOMATIC ACTIONS

SEQUENCE

STOP CRITERIA
If I decide I don't want to settle after moving settler 1S
When agri is done
When AH is done
If anything comes up

Research
Agriculture-AH

Civic change
Environmentalism
Police State

Religion change

Cities settled
Murky Waters

RATIONALE
1S looks like the best long-term capital, assuming there's not junk in the southern FC.

Agriculture is our next non-trivial decision point. At that point, we can still decide whether we'll go for the Oracle or not. If so, for CS or Electricity. At that point we may also have a better idea of what we want to do REX-wise, and whether it's preferable to research The Wheel sooner or later.

Spoiler :

ZPV · Mar 26, 2009

Looks good to me. I think the square 2SE of the settler is flatland, and there are some plains forests in the SW.

Erkon · Mar 26, 2009

Hmm, I don't understand the move with the scout... :hmm:

We will not settle NW of lake, no matter what? It's ~8 water tiles, two turns delay, and we miss the fish and one corn. And the tile N of lake is very weak long term, yes? So what could possibly result from moving scout NW-W that will stop us from settling 1S? We could save a spot in the north for another city.

I would favor scout move S-SE. This will enable us to decide settlement:
1W - if sea resource two tiles in the water to the east
1SE - if nice resource 2S of forest hill
1S - as planned

Ok, ok, I just wanted object to the PPP for the sake of objection

jesusin · Mar 26, 2009

Before anything else, why don't you press caps and move the settler around, then cancelling before releasing the caps key?

ZPV · Mar 26, 2009

Do you mean press "Pause", which prevents you from actually making the move, even if you do release the mouse button?

LowtherCastle · Mar 26, 2009

Erkon said:
Hmm, I don't understand the move with the scout... We will not settle NW of lake, no matter what? It's ~8 water tiles, two turns delay, and we miss the fish and one corn. And the tile N of lake is very weak long term, yes? So what could possibly result from moving scout NW-W that will stop us from settling 1S? We could save a spot in the north for another city.

I would favor scout move S-SE. This will enable us to decide settlement:
1W - if sea resource two tiles in the water to the east
1SE - if nice resource 2S of forest hill
1S - as planned

Ok, ok, I just wanted object to the PPP for the sake of objection

This was my original thinking. Except that I'm not talking about settling NW or N of the lake. I'm talking about possibly settling W or NW of the hill where the settler is currently standing. Moving the scout NW-(W?) will tell us more about what 10 might be in the FC of those two spots and 2) if settling there prevents us from accessing seafood up there.

I'm resigned to us losing seafood to the east, if that happens. The fact is, we have a dilemma and can't scout east and northwest. I can't really find any over-riding logic for one or the other, other than that stupid blue ring.

LowtherCastle · Mar 26, 2009

jesusin said:
Before anything else, why don't you press caps and move the settler around, then cancelling before releasing the caps key?

I don't know about this trick. Can you explain it in more detail. What wil I see when I do this. Can't you do it when you open the save?

Erkon · Mar 26, 2009

jesusin is referring to the SHIFT key (stacked actions), not CAPS.

klarius · Mar 27, 2009

One problem with scouting north and defaulting to settling south is that settling south can be considerably worse than settling in place. We don't know any of the tiles we gain settling south - they could be all useless, while we lose 3 forests and a possible resource tile.
We make space for a fishy city in the north, but that's not necessarily a high priority good location and we may end up never settling it if there are resources NW.
There is still the possibility to settle on the corn. We may have to move the capital later, but there is a good chance that we get good cities W and South then.

Erkon · Mar 27, 2009

GOT IT - just kidding. The blue circle is gone :lol:

klarius · Mar 27, 2009

So we have 6 rivals left

. And the maximum power of rivals is 7 greater than the minimum. Looks like Gyathaar has given an extra archer to one civ. I think we have a neighbor :lol:

.
Edit: And that neighbor has TW but not mining, so is not Mansa.

LowtherCastle · Mar 27, 2009

Well, we discovered from that one BOTM that added archers can be lured out, unless Gyathaar figured out how to assign it so it stays in the capital. There are three protective leaders with TW and no mng.

jesusin · Mar 27, 2009

ZPV said:
Do you mean press "Pause", which prevents you from actually making the move, even if you do release the mouse button?

No, I don't, pause and "cancel action" doesn't wrok well together.

Test it with any unit in any game. Press caps, tell a unit to go somewhere, then tell it to go somewhere else, then press cancel twice, then release caps key. If you do this with a settler, the "settling" button will be highlighted in the tiles the game recommends to settle, even in the fog of war.

LowtherCastle · Mar 27, 2009

klarius said:
The winning team will be the one that can generate the most beakers from T100+ for the final push.

Code:

Some stats from our SG8, for comparison. T100 is 800AD on Quick.

              840AD           1535AD (pre-space race techs)
              -----           ------  
cities         12              28 (some still in revolt)
cottages       12               - 
hamlets        18               -
villages       10               -
towns           0              38 (unrazed towns and villages)
wkshops         -              59
mines           -              30
specs           -              58 (how to precisely pinpoint this)
trade rts       -             ~20gpt per city
100% bpt      773            2100
100% deficit -182            -395gpt
w/GA            -            3000
                             -410gpt

Observations:
1. Thoroughly mixed economy (cottage + specialist + hammer)
2. GAs are by far the biggest late game booster
3. At the above tech rate, we could finish the space race techs at 1 tech per 2 turns during 2 GAs
4. We may need to use axes/swords/airships to get to 12 cities (T100) rather than wait for paratroopers.
5. Building and working 40 cottages before T100 is at least 120 worker-turns, a lot of population, and preferably a lot of grass river tiles.

LowtherCastle · Mar 27, 2009

jesusin said:
Test it with any unit in any game. Press caps, tell a unit to go somewhere, then tell it to go somewhere else, then press cancel twice, then release caps key. If you do this with a settler, the "settling" button will be highlighted in the tiles the game recommends to settle, even in the fog of war.

I get it. Problem is, it recommends very few places, I dont know why it recommends them, and it doesn't recommend any of the places I would prefer to settle on. What info are you able to gather from this?

LowtherCastle · Mar 27, 2009

Got it!

We can see from fog-gazing that settling 1S will stop us from accessing 2 potential seafood tiles only (2E and 3E of the scout). Scouting S SE will defog 1 FC tile and allow fog-gazing for another to the 1S settling position and we only risk the third.

I don't know what to do with the scout. I dislike making such choices. When I play a GOTM, I always move in the wrong driection and miss the gems or gold tile, or whatever. Even if I say, okay I want to this, so I'll do that instead, it's the wrong decision... :lol:

Please, either someone express a strong preference or let's have a vote, or something.

Erkon · Mar 27, 2009

LowtherCastle said:
Code:

Some stats from our SG8, for comparison. T100 is 800AD on Quick. 840AD 1535AD (pre-space race techs) ----- ------ cities 12 28 (some still in revolt) cottages 12 - hamlets 18 - villages 10 - towns 0 38 (unrazed towns and villages) wkshops - 59 mines - 30 specs - 58 (how to precisely pinpoint this) trade rts - ~20gpt per city 100% bpt 773 2100 100% deficit -182 -395gpt w/GA - 3000 -410gpt

Observations:
1. Thoroughly mixed economy (cottage + specialist + hammer)
2. GAs are by far the biggest late game booster
3. At the above tech rate, we could finish the space race techs at 1 tech per 2 turns during 2 GAs
4. We may need to use axes/swords/airships to get to 12 cities (T100) rather than wait for paratroopers.
5. Building and working 40 cottages before T100 is at least 120 worker-turns, a lot of population, and preferably a lot of grass river tiles.

Nice table! :goodjob:

1. Yes
2. 900 bpt * 9 turns = 8100 beakers. How many scientists does this represent? Shall we target a 3-GP GA, or a 4-GP GA?
4. Hmm, land units will be too slow. Perhaps if we galley-chained them to coastal cities, and worked inward? But that will require a huge amount of units if we want rapid conquest. I still prefer if we could expand peacefully until paratroopers. Also keep in mind that we settled non-optimal cities for the Sea Quest. We'll notice once we know the map.
5. Assume we can use half of our workers for cottaging, and that the number of workers increase with one every three turns from T30, then we'll have (70/3)/2)=12 workers on T100, and 420 accumulated worker turns, and we need one new cottage every second turn. This should not be a problem to achieve, even if we spend less than 50% of our worker turns on cottaging.

LowtherCastle said:
Got it!

We can see from fog-gazing that settling 1S will stop us from accessing 2 potential seafood tiles only (2E and 3E of the scout). Scouting S SE will defog 1 FC tile and allow fog-gazing for another to the 1S settling position and we only risk the third.

I don't know what to do with the scout. I dislike making such choices. When I play a GOTM, I always move in the wrong driection and miss the gems or gold tile, or whatever. Even if I say, okay I want to this, so I'll do that instead, it's the wrong decision...

Please, either someone express a strong preference or let's have a vote, or something.

Let's wait then until more of us have opened up the save. When do you want to move the scout? Tonight european time?

SGOTM 09 - Murky Waters

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