Strongest civs to play against.

Hiawatha has both, a low flavor for growth and a somewhat low flavor for tile improvements, he has a nice start, but he always falls behind at medieval+ in my games.

Calouste said:
That's got more to do with the fact that the meta-game on these forums is extremely concentrated on science. Or in other words, a lot of people know how to play Babylon, and they don't know how to play anything else, which is why the Iroquois are not well regarded.
Click to expand...
People do obviously focus on science, because it's pretty much needed for any victory condition (except for warmonger-rushes maybe), this becomes even more important when you're playing a Civ that doesn't get a science bonus.

I don't really see what this has to do with the Iroquois though. ô.o There are a lot of Civs that have nice bonuses that are not directly related to science, the Iroquois however don't really have anything that is too useful. Their UU ist okay, mostly because it doesn't need iron, however, their UA and their UB both have the same problem: You have to keep a lot of forests to make them useful, which is something you'll usually not want to do - it just reduces the amount of good food tiles that you'll have on average and give you more production than you can't work because of the lack of food. That's why they're just a bad Civ overall.
 
Ryika said:
Hiawatha has both, a low flavor for growth and a somewhat low flavor for tile improvements, he has a nice start, but he always falls behind at medieval+ in my games.


People do obviously focus on science, because it's pretty much needed for any victory condition (except for warmonger-rushes maybe), this becomes even more important when you're playing a Civ that doesn't get a science bonus.

I don't really see what this has to do with the Iroquois though. ô.o There are a lot of Civs that have nice bonuses that are not directly related to science, the Iroquois however don't really have anything that is too useful. Their UU ist okay, mostly because it doesn't need iron, however, their UA and their UB both have the same problem: You have to keep a lot of forests to make them useful, which is something you'll usually not want to do - it just reduces the amount of good food tiles that you'll have on average and give you more production than you can't work because of the lack of food. That's why they're just a bad Civ overall.
Click to expand...

Thank you for proving my point.

For example, please explain to me and the civ community here in general why it is bad to keep around a forest on a hill as the Iroquois considering it give 1:c5food:3:c5hammers: (and saves you the maintenance cost of a road) where a mined hill only gives 3:c5hammers:.

There are other ways to get food, you can get quite a bit from Religion for example, Goddess of the Hunt, Feed the World.
 
Calouste said:
Thank you for proving my point.
Click to expand...
That playing effective is effective?

Of course people will rate Civs by how good they work with the best strategies. So if you can proof that everyone is doing it wrong, do so. ...if you can't, well, then the Iroquois are rightfully considered to be a lower tier Civ. I wouldn't really see them as a bottom-tier-civ like others do, but they're no doubt below average.

Calouste said:
For example, please explain to me and the civ community here in general why it is bad to keep around a forest on a hill as the Iroquois considering it give 1:c5food:3:c5hammers: (and saves you the maintenance cost of a road) where a mined hill only gives 3:c5hammers:.
Click to expand...
Hills with forests on them are okay, but the amount of forests that you can really keep is usually relatively low. As long as you've got enough hills, you'll pretty much want to get rid of any forests on a flatland-tile, because those hills can't be converted into food, but forest-tiles can. You need a solid amount of food-tiles while the amount of hammer-heavy tiles you need is somewhat limited, so you have to get rid of hammer-heavy tiles and the only ones that you can get rid of are forest tiles. That's the problem... they don't improve the hammer-tiles that you want to work (like for example Russia does) and instead get their bonus-hammers on tiles that you generally don't WANT to be hammer-heavy tiles.

With Liberty, well... that's another story, but Liberty is generally much weaker than Tradition... and the Iroquois add to what Liberty is already good at instead of making up for its weaknesses which can become a problem quite easily.

Calouste said:
There are other ways to get food, you can get quite a bit from Religion for example, Goddess of the Hunt, Feed the World.
Click to expand...
How does food from external sources lower the priority of food-tiles? You can never really have too much food, because food equals population and population equals production/science/gold. For hammers on the other hand there's just a limit when they stop being effective - you don't need tons of hammers... and you can't really work that many hammer-heavy tiles anyway.
 
France - in my experience at least - are very expansionist and can become a cultural powerhouse.
Thailand is very expansionist too, founding cities right through the game. Their religion seems to spread very well too.
America is the same as Thailand expansion wise, and they tend to get stronger late game as others start to fall by the wayside...

Honourable mention to Poland, who can be utterly terrifying to front up against or are a complete joke and get eaten up quite quickly.
 
Ryika said:
That playing effective is effective?

Of course people will rate Civs by how good they work with the best strategies. So if you can proof that everyone is doing it wrong, do so. ...if you can't, well, then the Iroquois are rightfully considered to be a lower tier Civ. I wouldn't really see them as a bottom-tier-civ like others do, but they're no doubt below average.


Hills with forests on them are okay, but the amount of forests that you can really keep is usually relatively low. As long as you've got enough hills, you'll pretty much want to get rid of any forests on a flatland-tile, because those hills can't be converted into food, but forest-tiles can. You need a solid amount of food-tiles while the amount of hammer-heavy tiles you need is somewhat limited, so you have to get rid of hammer-heavy tiles and the only ones that you can get rid of are forest tiles. That's the problem... they don't improve the hammer-tiles that you want to work (like for example Russia does) and instead get their bonus-hammers on tiles that you generally don't WANT to be hammer-heavy tiles.

With Liberty, well... that's another story, but Liberty is generally much weaker than Tradition... and the Iroquois add to what Liberty is already good at instead of making up for its weaknesses which can become a problem quite easily.


How does food from external sources lower the priority of food-tiles? You can never really have too much food, because food equals population and population equals production/science/gold. For hammers on the other hand there's just a limit when they stop being effective - you don't need tons of hammers... and you can't really work that many hammer-heavy tiles anyway.
Click to expand...

Can't argue that Iroquois is at least versatile. You can only choose to keep the forests that act as roads and it will save alot of gold in the long run. You can also trading post the forests after rationalism and get some science as well. At least what Iroquois gets from forests is much more than for example what morocco get from casbahs because you really need desert hills or a Petra to make them worth while.
 
I don't like to categorize civs by tiers, especially putting them in lower tiers, so when I said Iroquois is considered to be lower-tier, that was not my opinion, but the prevailing opinion around here. Anyway, my point was about their AI performance, not how good they would be for a human player.
 
The Inka and Korea tend to get out of control very easily in my experience... and the Zulu can be a real pain in the $/%& to deal with if he's your neighbour early on... :(
 
If you want a tough game from start to finish pick these opponents:
Greece, Rome, Sweden, Shoshone, Germany, Siam and Persia. These are all warmonger expansionist types that are hard to bribe unlike Shaka and are CS and science focused in late game.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk
 
greece-a superpower in nearly all of my games.

poland-if left unchecked, he is basically a crazy mad and strong nation.

america-if hes not raped then hes a close second.

huns-rare, but if he isnt killed then you better run, because he comes in dry.

spain-my worst nightmare. she is near impossible to rid of. also has a weird fetish of conquering valetta in all of my games, no matter how far it is.
 
I find the Ottomans to be trouble in all my games, and are usually the only AI competing with me.

Amazingly, Ethiopia has also done well, spamming wonders and having a great infrastructure.

In my latest game, everything is going really funny, though. A bunch of punching bags, or downright weak civs are doing great, with Denmark, Spain, and Songhai all towards the top. Even Polynesia is doing great, and some really good civs like Korea are doing terribly.
 
I'd say the hardest civ to play against for me would be Russia. Persia and Germany are hard too. But I am usually ahead of all the other players in my games. Alexander is REALLY annoying! He declares war on you every 20 turns and then wants me to pay him for peace when I just destroyed his entire army :spank: ! There's the AI for you.....:mad:
 
If you are “lucky”, Alex will offer you a peace treaty by exacting tons of things.
 
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