Tomatekh's New Civilizations

Your teaser for Harappa has me hoping you can release it soon, I really want to know what that UI does.

Harappa has actually been ready for a long time. It just needs the unit graphic. Lately, I've been considering just releasing it (so it wouldn't have a unique unit graphic and just use the default unitclass model). I'd hate to do it, though, because part of me feels once a civ's been released it sort of becomes less likely to be worked on (if that makes sense). Plus, this is already the revision (so the update should feel complete and not missing anything). But I guess just holding on to it indefinitely doesn't make sense either. Maybe when I'm done updating my other civs I'll make up my mind.

I'll say the teaser is not exactly what it appears to be. I mean, the image is not edited, but it might not be a UI...
 
I hope somebody can help you with the unit graphic, I'm guessing the cart is getting replaced.
 
Hi there Tomathek, I have some feedback on the Caral:
I think its a very cool mechanic, but it is one that could use a buff: Namely, after playing with a very bad start, I have the feeling that the trading part of their unique ability doesn't scale all too well into the late game, and that the plantation part is a bit too situational. The problem is that my starting location and the surrounding area soon made the UA a bit superfluous: I didn't have that many sea resources and there were no luxuries that required plantations in the vicinity of my cities, so about halfway the match I started phasing out my inland trade routes, because they were simply better spent trading with other civs for gold and science. Nor did I get any production bonuses, because there were no plantations.
Would it be feasible to not just export the base yields, but also those added by buildings, improvements and religion? And/Or perhaps to make the production boost happen for any inland luxuries that you improve?
 
I hope somebody can help you with the unit graphic, I'm guessing the cart is getting replaced.

Actually, the cart is still there, and so is the sewer, and so are the trade seals, and so is something else... I'd say roughly about 60-65% of the civ's abilities are new while the rest was kept. If I can't get a graphic soon, I probably will just post the civ. One of the reasons is that for a separate reason Harappa needs to be released before Xia (even if Xia ends up finished and release ready first).

Hi there Tomathek, I have some feedback on the Caral:
I think its a very cool mechanic, but it is one that could use a buff: Namely, after playing with a very bad start, I have the feeling that the trading part of their unique ability doesn't scale all too well into the late game, and that the plantation part is a bit too situational. The problem is that my starting location and the surrounding area soon made the UA a bit superfluous: I didn't have that many sea resources and there were no luxuries that required plantations in the vicinity of my cities, so about halfway the match I started phasing out my inland trade routes, because they were simply better spent trading with other civs for gold and science. Nor did I get any production bonuses, because there were no plantations.
Would it be feasible to not just export the base yields, but also those added by buildings, improvements and religion? And/Or perhaps to make the production boost happen for any inland luxuries that you improve?

Actually, none of Caral's abilities are really meant to scale into the late game (i.e. I purposefully didn't adjust them by era count or give them a tech boost). The idea being that as a cradle civ, the civ sort of gets a strong head start which you then need to leverage. That doesn't mean it works all that great at the moment and the numbers probably do need to be adjusted. Terrain dependency was/is my biggest concern with the design. I've been considering several things that might help it, just can't decide if/what I want to do. The civ does currently have some help in that regard (if you have a coast start it reshuffles some of the resources to guarantee some sea resources in a 3 tile radius) which I could also expand on. Thanks for the suggestions, I'll keep them in mind.
 
Caral is great. Only, i seem to always have bad starts with them... the UA needs changing, other then that the civ is great.
 
Actually, the cart is still there, and so is the sewer, and so are the trade seals, and so is something else... I'd say roughly about 60-65% of the civ's abilities are new while the rest was kept. If I can't get a graphic soon, I probably will just post the civ. One of the reasons is that for a separate reason Harappa needs to be released before Xia (even if Xia ends up finished and release ready first).

I can't figure it out or how Harappa relates to Xia. More hints for both!!

(I also really hope you can release it soon. What specifically needs to be done with the unit graphic?)

Caral is great. Only, i seem to always have bad starts with them... the UA needs changing, other then that the civ is great.

The UA doesn't really need to be changed at all. Actually, I've found the civ to be much stronger if you settle your capital inland and then actively settle good coast spots to import resources to your capital. So, they don't even really need a specific start.
 
I can't figure it out or how Harappa relates to Xia. More hints for both!!

(I also really hope you can release it soon. What specifically needs to be done with the unit graphic?)



The UA doesn't really need to be changed at all. Actually, I've found the civ to be much stronger if you settle your capital inland and then actively settle good coast spots to import resources to your capital. So, they don't even really need a specific start.

Well, a bad choice for a maritime game, i suppose... BTW, I don't see what the first part of the UA has to do with Caral. Also, the starting bias is coastal... :p
 
What do you mean, the UA is like super appropriate for Caral?

Grapes(let alone wine) and incense has nothing to do with fishing nets. Even though cotton, silk and sheep does.
It should be resource specific.
 
Grapes(let alone wine) and incense has nothing to do with fishing nets. Even though cotton, silk and sheep does.
It should be resource specific.

These types of abilities would be useless if you made them resource specific. They have to be somewhat more generalized to account for game mechanics (like most UAs are). The reference, however, is obvious and historically correct.
 
No, its not... and no again.
(Random people who join the conversation *cough CL crew* *cough*, don't troll me)
 
You may want to do some reading on the archaeology of Caral. Early work noted a very heavy reliance on fisheries, an unusually small agricultural base, and the cotton trade that resulted with inland sites. It threw archaeologists off for a while, because civilization is traditionally thought to result from agriculture, rather than fisheries. The maritime foundation hypothesis isn't as popular nowadays, but it still influences thinking on the cultural and economic foundations of the ancient Peruvian coast.

Here's a good start on English wiki.
 
Well, that i already read. That why i suggested a resource based bonus: they were dependent on specific resources, like cotton, and also on fisheries.
 
Well, that i already read. That why i suggested a resource based bonus: they were dependent on specific resources, like cotton, and also on fisheries.

Problem is; resource specific is horrible (strategics excluded, you're likely to get one or two sources of it)

That is why suggestion involving Ivory for Laos and similar fall flat. How often do you start next to Ivory? 1 in 5 games?

A Plantation bonus is MUCH more flexible.
 
Problem is; resource specific is horrible (strategics excluded, you're likely to get one or two sources of it)

That is why suggestion involving Ivory for Laos and similar fall flat. How often do you start next to Ivory? 1 in 5 games?

A Plantation bonus is MUCH more flexible.

My argument is for the idea; I'm well aware of other effects, but i get annoyed when something that suppose to be historically correct isnt.:p
(BTW, i am actually smart and aware of things, y'know)
 
Well, a bad choice for a maritime game, i suppose... BTW, I don't see what the first part of the UA has to do with Caral. Also, the starting bias is coastal... :p

Sorry Natan, I side with Sukritact and Hangman :p

Norte Chico only made fish nets from cotton. To be 100% historically accurate the ability should only work on cotton (not also silk and sheep as you stated). However, an ability like this that only fires when improving cotton would be completely impractical and noneffective. It would be throwing something onto the civ just to force a historical reference and not serve the civ's design (not to mention would add another level of terrain dependance). Generalizing it to all plantation resources not only makes it functional but also makes it simple and quick to understand (i.e. you don't have to remember which 4 different resources, just the 1 improvement).

A lot of other things in Civ V follow this pattern. All the pasture resources are often lumped together for abilities even if it only makes sense for horse (and not cattle and sheep). So a stable still boosts mounted unit production even if the city built the stable because of having sheep and not horse, etc.

Including a functional ability that draws inspiration from history = good
Being overly pedantic to force historical accuracy but produce an impractical ability = bad

I also don't completely consider Caral a maritime civ. A maritime civ will primarily settle coast and islands and there's no disadvantage in only doing so. To make the most of Caral you need to also settle inland. I did this on purpose to match the historical interdependence between coastal and inland sites for Caral. It has a coastal start because there's no "one city width from the coast" start. Historically, Caral was inland with Aspero as its coastal trading partner. However, the difference is relative; if you choose to do so, you can just move a few tiles and settle your capital inland. (A coastal start also lets me manipulate starting sea resources easier).

And yes, the civ draws from the Maritime Foundations of the Andes hypothesis. It was one of the most interesting angles to approach the civ. I should note that no one really considers this hypothesis as completely accurate anymore (and I point this out in the civilopedia). However, it is still generally agreed that Caral depended more on sea resources (especially as a protein source) than the other cradle civs (even if they still had an agricultural base). Inland sites also still imported a lot of sea resources (as evidenced from fish remains) from coastal sites, and there was a reciprocal trading relationship between the two. I feel my abilities are a nice nod to both the hypothesis and actual history without going too overboard in either direction. I didn't, for example, choose to have them start with sailing instead of agriculture or have them not be able to build farms.
 
My argument is for the idea; I'm well aware of other effects, but i get annoyed when something that suppose to be historically correct isnt.:p
(BTW, i am actually smart and aware of things, y'know)

Right, well, this is something that takes some getting used to around here. It annoys me also when stuff like that isn't historically accurate, but as most modders learn, making a good mod is usually a balancing act between accuracy and the elements that make it fun. The inaccuracy is something you sort of have to desensitize yourself to.

Just be glad there's not a picture of Chichen Itza behind the leaderhead! :lol:
 
...It annoys me also when stuff like that isn't historically accurate, ...

I'll never forget when hangman told me he was irritated that his ancient Inca cities were lobbing boulders at enemies rather than arrows! My response: ^^

Anachronisms don't bother me one bit, but I understand that many civ players seek mods that reflect their interest in history.
 
I suggest adding something extra to the UA, like extra extra food from fish or double cotton quantity.
 
Top Bottom