MAP development
- Thread starter kbrennan7654
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ianinsane
Prince
I don't feel very good about all those African Unions. Although I agree that it is the right thing to do to weaken or abolish the AU civ. I'll look into it later this day and maybe I can think of a different approach. Maybe I'd feel better about it if we just named the West African States "Nigeria", the Central "Angola", the East "Kenya" and the South "South Africa"...
Combining Venezuela and it's allies is an OK thing to do, I guess. But I'd include Ecuador and Paraguay, too. Maybe call the whole thing "Venezuela"?
I think it's strange to make Mongolia an own civ. It might be large in size but it's international importance is near to zero. Can't we raze the few Mongolian cities, add to Russia and China one city each that is close to the Mongolian border and expand their cultural borders?
The grouping of the Arab States of the Gulf is OK but I'd rather call it "Saudi-Arabia".
Bangladesh deserves it's own civ, I think.
I'm not sure about Norway and New Zealand. Are they really important enough? We could make them both Minor States and use the slots to further diversify Africa. If we can add two more African civs I think it should be Libya and Zimbabwe.
Combining Venezuela and it's allies is an OK thing to do, I guess. But I'd include Ecuador and Paraguay, too. Maybe call the whole thing "Venezuela"?
I think it's strange to make Mongolia an own civ. It might be large in size but it's international importance is near to zero. Can't we raze the few Mongolian cities, add to Russia and China one city each that is close to the Mongolian border and expand their cultural borders?
The grouping of the Arab States of the Gulf is OK but I'd rather call it "Saudi-Arabia".
Bangladesh deserves it's own civ, I think.
I'm not sure about Norway and New Zealand. Are they really important enough? We could make them both Minor States and use the slots to further diversify Africa. If we can add two more African civs I think it should be Libya and Zimbabwe.
Genghis_Kai
GEM modder
I personally don't mind either we call them with names like "West Africa States" or just "Nigeria" as long as the names are consistent. Since we have EU in our list already, for consistency, I think it is better to call them "West Africa States" and etc.
For the Bolivarian Americas (short for "Bolivarian Alternative for the Americas), it doesn't include Ecuador and Paraguay.
I think Mongolia, Norway and New Zealand are important enough on the map. They occupy significant space on GEM for us not to ignore their existence. Like I said, when it comes down to playability, it is the number of cities we can use to represent them that matters. Why make a 4 city nation as minor while choosing a 1 or 2 city nation as playable?
For the Bolivarian Americas (short for "Bolivarian Alternative for the Americas), it doesn't include Ecuador and Paraguay.
I think Mongolia, Norway and New Zealand are important enough on the map. They occupy significant space on GEM for us not to ignore their existence. Like I said, when it comes down to playability, it is the number of cities we can use to represent them that matters. Why make a 4 city nation as minor while choosing a 1 or 2 city nation as playable?
ianinsane
Prince
The difference here is, I think, that the EU at least sometimes is acting as this entity internationally wheres I've never heard of these African Unions, except the ECOWAS. To most people (including me) these will cross the line to creating fake unions. So I vote for calling them Nigeria, South Africa, Angola and Kenya.
OK, if you take only the real ALBA then you're right, of course. Might be that we'll have to assign Paraguay and Ecuador to ALBA in the World 2010 scenario.
I might be convinced to Norway and New Zealand. Looking at their GDP ranking in the world...
But Mongolia? I say we'd include some state instead that actually has some international importance, even if it's smaller. Like Zimbabwe or DR Congo. What's everyone else's opinion?
ianinsane
Prince
OK, I did some thinking again. Now I quite like your suggestion for Africa. (except the Union names) Here's a map of your suggestion. I hope I got it right.
Still, there are some changes I suggest.
1. Assign the yet unassigned states (light grey in the upper map) to the surrounding states. That means Gambia, Guinea-Beissau & Benin to Western African civ, Swaziland & Lesotho to South African civ, Rep. Congo to Central African civ. But probably these states don't have any cities anyway.
2. Make Djibouti minor nation.
3. Make Zambia, Malawi, Niger & Mali minor nations. These aren't failed states at all.
4. Make Libya its own civ. As I said, I'd instead sacrifice Mongolia.
5. Call Western African Civ "Nigeria", Central African "Angola", Eastern African "Kenya" and Southern African "South Africa".
It would look like this:
Still, there are some changes I suggest.
1. Assign the yet unassigned states (light grey in the upper map) to the surrounding states. That means Gambia, Guinea-Beissau & Benin to Western African civ, Swaziland & Lesotho to South African civ, Rep. Congo to Central African civ. But probably these states don't have any cities anyway.
2. Make Djibouti minor nation.
3. Make Zambia, Malawi, Niger & Mali minor nations. These aren't failed states at all.
4. Make Libya its own civ. As I said, I'd instead sacrifice Mongolia.
5. Call Western African Civ "Nigeria", Central African "Angola", Eastern African "Kenya" and Southern African "South Africa".
It would look like this:
Attachments
Ok, if these changes are finalized let me know, I will make them.
I like your ideas, I appreciate the work you've put in to it, but I don't like how Africa will look now. Basically cut in to 4 nations that will all have good sized, continuous territory. Our old idea was far from perfect and needed changing, but, this new way, Africa will be united into 4 strong powers. Our original idea was to make it as fractured and split as possible. I still don't see why the old AU had to have 35 cities (why more couldn't be minor or failed I mean).
Edit: What about Libya and Zimbabwe? Certainly we need something like the Independence states civ to cover these civs?
But if that's the way you think it works best, let's go for it. Perhaps people can suggest what leaders to use for those new groups.
I like your ideas, I appreciate the work you've put in to it, but I don't like how Africa will look now. Basically cut in to 4 nations that will all have good sized, continuous territory. Our old idea was far from perfect and needed changing, but, this new way, Africa will be united into 4 strong powers. Our original idea was to make it as fractured and split as possible. I still don't see why the old AU had to have 35 cities (why more couldn't be minor or failed I mean).
Edit: What about Libya and Zimbabwe? Certainly we need something like the Independence states civ to cover these civs?
But if that's the way you think it works best, let's go for it. Perhaps people can suggest what leaders to use for those new groups.
Maybe we could keep your unions, but add Nigeria and Chad as independent civs?
I for one am fine with New Zealand and Mongolia or Norway being minor, but you are obviously the expert with the map, so whatever you decide on I'm sure will be fine.
P.S. The suggestion someone made to call these unions by the names of countries, I don't think makes much sense. I like Bolivarian Americans especially, great name. That one certainly should include Ecuador and Paraguay though IMO, I don't see how these ones are better put elsewhere.
I for one am fine with New Zealand and Mongolia or Norway being minor, but you are obviously the expert with the map, so whatever you decide on I'm sure will be fine.
P.S. The suggestion someone made to call these unions by the names of countries, I don't think makes much sense. I like Bolivarian Americans especially, great name. That one certainly should include Ecuador and Paraguay though IMO, I don't see how these ones are better put elsewhere.
ianinsane
Prince
LOL...I just had my sisters netbook, so I took that blank African map from wikipedia and used Microsoft Paint to fill in colors...
Wow, this is a big overhaul so late in the game... I'm not getting into specifics but I believe anything that makes Africa very fractured will work. As long as Nigeria, South Africa, Egypt, and some others are independent. Nigeria, because it is one of the fastest emerging economies and powers in Africa. South Africa because just how culturally different it is from most of the continent. And Egypt because of its large influence over the Middle East.
Norway, Mongolia, and New Zealand are defiantly independent or split up. Bangladesh should be its own civ. Arab States of the Gulf should be called Saudi Arabia. And the Bolivarian Americas is a lot nicer and more realistic sounding name than Latin American Socialist Allies.
Norway, Mongolia, and New Zealand are defiantly independent or split up. Bangladesh should be its own civ. Arab States of the Gulf should be called Saudi Arabia. And the Bolivarian Americas is a lot nicer and more realistic sounding name than Latin American Socialist Allies.
Genghis_Kai
GEM modder
Something I need to further explain.
@DVS: In my proposal, each of these four sub-Sahara African Unions will be surrounded by, encircling many failed states. They are definitely not in a good sized territory.
@ianinsane: Thanks for your map. It is almost accurate. Some nations I didn't include because they are too small to have one city on the map. On the other hand, some nations have more than one city that half of it is within a union and the other half is failed state. These include Mali, Niger and DR Congo. I've checked each African nation to find out whether there are military conflicts right now!
You are quite right about Malawi and Zambia. But I was thinking these nations are so poor that it is better to group them to failed states rather than the minor nations (which includes nations such as Switzerlands!)
@DVS: In my proposal, each of these four sub-Sahara African Unions will be surrounded by, encircling many failed states. They are definitely not in a good sized territory.
@ianinsane: Thanks for your map. It is almost accurate. Some nations I didn't include because they are too small to have one city on the map. On the other hand, some nations have more than one city that half of it is within a union and the other half is failed state. These include Mali, Niger and DR Congo. I've checked each African nation to find out whether there are military conflicts right now!
You are quite right about Malawi and Zambia. But I was thinking these nations are so poor that it is better to group them to failed states rather than the minor nations (which includes nations such as Switzerlands!)
Genghis_Kai
GEM modder
Based on ianiniane's map, this is what it actually look like in my proposal.
I still recommend to keep Mongolia because of it's size. We should consider all of these aspects: GDP, population, land mass and military size. Mongolia happens to excel in one aspect - 17th largest land mass on Earth. Moreover, Mongolia is one of the original 18 civs in CIV.
If we really want to add more African states, since we have some rooms to add a few more civs, I would suggest to just add Libya (and give Tunisia to it) and may be Madagascar by itself. But then we should also add Malaysia.
I don't mind either we call the African civs by the Union's name or the largest nation's name (btw, East African States should be Tanzania). DVS, your call.
Please note that, we don't need to create a lot of new leaderheads in my proposal, except Norway, Turkey, Mongolia, Bangladesh and New Zealand. All the African Unions can replace existing civ (for example West African States use Nigeria; East Africa States use African Union - the leaderhead happens to be the president of Tanzania!)
I still recommend to keep Mongolia because of it's size. We should consider all of these aspects: GDP, population, land mass and military size. Mongolia happens to excel in one aspect - 17th largest land mass on Earth. Moreover, Mongolia is one of the original 18 civs in CIV.
If we really want to add more African states, since we have some rooms to add a few more civs, I would suggest to just add Libya (and give Tunisia to it) and may be Madagascar by itself. But then we should also add Malaysia.
I don't mind either we call the African civs by the Union's name or the largest nation's name (btw, East African States should be Tanzania). DVS, your call.
Please note that, we don't need to create a lot of new leaderheads in my proposal, except Norway, Turkey, Mongolia, Bangladesh and New Zealand. All the African Unions can replace existing civ (for example West African States use Nigeria; East Africa States use African Union - the leaderhead happens to be the president of Tanzania!)
Attachments
Ok, let's try it that way. You've sold me on Mongolia, Madagascar I think we can keep as a minor nation.
Do you think the central states will be too strong? Maybe we can use minor nations and failed states to weaken these unions further, if needed. First of all Somalia, I think is the modern definition of a failed state, so I think its cities should be Barbarian. Chad is also pretty messed up right now, and having them as something else would break up the continuity of the central state's land mass, if that is something we want. Zimbabwe as well I think should be something different, that state clearly functions differently at the present time than say South Africa.
Do you think the central states will be too strong? Maybe we can use minor nations and failed states to weaken these unions further, if needed. First of all Somalia, I think is the modern definition of a failed state, so I think its cities should be Barbarian. Chad is also pretty messed up right now, and having them as something else would break up the continuity of the central state's land mass, if that is something we want. Zimbabwe as well I think should be something different, that state clearly functions differently at the present time than say South Africa.
Well, since we're commenting anyway:
Would it not be possible to separate the emirates from Saudi Arabia/Yemen (you seem to have left that out)? Especially the UAE seem on a different course politically/economically than religious conservative Saudi Arabia. (Just a thought.)
Would it not be possible to separate the emirates from Saudi Arabia/Yemen (you seem to have left that out)? Especially the UAE seem on a different course politically/economically than religious conservative Saudi Arabia. (Just a thought.)
I was thinking the same. Maybe Saudi Arabia on its own, and a union for the rest? Keeping them together would also form a new civ in the mid east that dominates Iran and would be unrealistically close to competing with Israel. We hadn't discussed the other gulf states much, I always assume minor nations for most with the USA controlling UAE, and possibly Kuwait and Qutar.
Also, Genghis Kai, the reason we split up the neutral states and the minor nations, was (1) to avoid making the minor nations stronger than anyone, and (2) we were going to make it impossible for anyone to declare war on the neutral states. I would prefer to keep it that way unless you are strongly against it.
Also, Genghis Kai, the reason we split up the neutral states and the minor nations, was (1) to avoid making the minor nations stronger than anyone, and (2) we were going to make it impossible for anyone to declare war on the neutral states. I would prefer to keep it that way unless you are strongly against it.
Genghis_Kai
GEM modder
@DVS: if you check more closely my proposal, you should realize Somalia, Chad and Zambabwe are all classified as Failed states already. I have also listed the number of cities of the four African unions. West (10), Central (8), South (9) and East (6) - Central isn't really particularly strong. I think what we need to do is to make alot of Barbarian units to surround these states initially such that these unions will be busy in fighting like in reality.
@JEELEN: Well, Arab States of the Gulf is a real union and it doesn't include Yemen. If we split it, we are making artificial unions.
The Arab states of the Gulf is having only 8 cities in total (4 for Saudi, 1 Kuwait, 1 Qatar, 1 UAE and 1 Oman and can't fit Bahrain). Iran is having 7 cities and Turkey 6. I don't think the Arab is overly dominating Middle East.
@JEELEN: Well, Arab States of the Gulf is a real union and it doesn't include Yemen. If we split it, we are making artificial unions.
The Arab states of the Gulf is having only 8 cities in total (4 for Saudi, 1 Kuwait, 1 Qatar, 1 UAE and 1 Oman and can't fit Bahrain). Iran is having 7 cities and Turkey 6. I don't think the Arab is overly dominating Middle East.
Genghis_Kai
GEM modder
About Neutral states. Do you really want to make Neutral states can not be declared war upon on? I personally feel this is quite unrealistic. It isn't a real union either.
I think combining it with minor nation has already given enough protection to those neutral states - that anyone declaring war on it will make it declare war on all the minor nations at once. You can also hard code some diplomatic penalty to all other nations when someone declare war on minor nations.
I think combining it with minor nation has already given enough protection to those neutral states - that anyone declaring war on it will make it declare war on all the minor nations at once. You can also hard code some diplomatic penalty to all other nations when someone declare war on minor nations.
Is Yemen included in the Somalia/Failed States group, added to Saudi Arabia or just not present? I was thinking that Arabia could just be split into Saudi Arabia and Gulf State emirates (4 against 5 cities seems reasonable, and Arabia hasn't the military pretensions Iran or Turkey has; its power is more economic. Also, while the Saudis represent conservative Sunnism - the mirates do not -, several islamic fundis seem to have emerged from there, making it a double-edged sword. The emirates are more moderate and interested in real economic development. The split would, IMO, be realistic.)
Genghis_Kai
GEM modder
Yemen is a minor nation. My fault, should of said that clearer.
We can just have Saudi Arabia and then the rest minor nations. But grouping the 5 minor Arabian states together without Saudi Arabia seems too artificial.
We can just have Saudi Arabia and then the rest minor nations. But grouping the 5 minor Arabian states together without Saudi Arabia seems too artificial.
