New analysis pushes date of first human "building" back to 175000 years ago

The idea of Neanderthals as an extinct failed branch of human evolution continues to be challenged by new finds. This one is interesting.

Neanderthals built mysterious cave structures 175,000 years ago

Constructions discovered deep in a French cave rank among the earliest human building projects ever discovered, but their purpose remains unclear

The extraordinary constructions are made from nearly 400 stalagmites that have been yanked from the ground and stacked on top of one another to produce rudimentary walls on the damp cave floor.

The most prominent formations are two ringed walls, built four layers deep in places, which appear to have been propped up with stalagmites wedged in place as vertical stays. The largest of the walls is nearly seven metres across and, where intact, stands up to 40cm high.

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Perhaps the sole reason we have little remains of Neanderthal civilization is that it was so far back in time the vast majority were completely erased from earth already? If they were building in hard to access places inside caves, surely they were building more outside?

First, I wouldn't calls stacking stalactites 'building'. I would call it stacking stalactites. Secondly, Neandertalers weren't a failed branch. Their DNA is in homo sapiens' DNA. None of which gives any reason to refer to Neanderthalers as a civilization.

innonimatu said:

The idea of Neanderthals as an extinct failed branch of human evolution continues to be challenged by new finds. This one is interesting.



Perhaps the sole reason we have little remains of Neanderthal civilization is that it was so far back in time the vast majority were completely erased from earth already? If they were building in hard to access places inside caves, surely they were building more outside?

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Yeah!
Your whole concept of how it all went down is wrong!
Rich and powerful are keeping you in the dark about the real history!, my goodness, how long can you people accept the lies and false definitions of ancient history!, it's all designed to keep you in the dark!
Real history is not about what was achieved "step by step" by humankind, foreign(extraterrestrial) influence is what shaped Earth's Civilization's path!

Bound to get warned about this post as well, oh well...

innonimatu said:

The idea of Neanderthals as an extinct failed branch of human evolution continues to be challenged by new finds. This one is interesting.



Perhaps the sole reason we have little remains of Neanderthal civilization is that it was so far back in time the vast majority were completely erased from earth already? If they were building in hard to access places inside caves, surely they were building more outside?

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I first read the starting sentence as "The idea of Netherlands as an extinct failed branch of human evolution continues to be challenged by new finds"

Although i am not sure if this find is really a 'building' in the usual sense. Sounds more like a very random-ish and at best symbolic creation, using stalagmite parts. It is not even a hut.

It's certainly another piece of evidence - look at this article, for example - that shows that Neanderthals were less 'animalistic' than we thought. I mean, it's only in this century that we've found evidence of them intentionally burying their dead, and using feathers and paint to move clothing beyond a simple matter of survival. It wasn't long ago at all that we took those activities that move life beyond the struggle to survive as the distinctive mark of our humanity. Now we either have to re-visit that, or expand what it might mean to be 'human'.

Kyriakos said:

I first read the starting sentence as "The idea of Netherlands as an extinct failed branch of human evolution continues to be challenged by new finds"

Although i am not sure if this find is really a 'building' in the usual sense. Sounds more like a very random-ish and at best symbolic creation, using stalagmite parts. It is not even a hut.

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We won't ever know what it was originally. But it may have been the basis for a larger building with perishable materials on top of these piled stalagmites. 175000 years starts getting into geological time: perishable stuff is utterly gone. That was why I wonder what may have been lost beyond the archaeological record.
What we do have is fire, burials, the ability to build what may have been shelters, possibly more complex. And art, consider what Flying Pig pointed to and this also, the oldest known cave paintings we have found so far (dating back to 50000 years ago) both in a region where Neanderthals were not extinct. Perhaps we managed to find these because they were still "relatively recent", just a tens of thousands of years, not yet so buried or decayed as to be missed?

Pre-history may be richer than we though. It is also, alas, tremendously difficult to figure out. It's now looking like a slow but steady cultural evolution, even despite the small numbers and fragmented nature of of human population. Instead of the old model of different species migrating and wiping out the previous ones, with only the final having contributed to modern humans.

I think a lot of people vastly underestimate pre-historic man.

Caves would have been permanent and important features to people who were wide-ranging hunter-gatherers. At the time when man could build fires, 1 to 2 million years ago at the earliest but becoming widespread in the evidence record only 100k-200k years ago, they could also likely build shelters, even "lesser" animals like apes and birds do of course, but there would have been absolutely no reason to make something that would leave permanent traces other than the fire-pit. In a cave, stalactites/stalagmites would be what was available, and a natural place for people to return to, or for other groups to find and make further use of, leaving some of the few permanent traces of that time of man.

Still, this being 175000 years old is pretty astounding.

This reminds me of the underlying insulting aspect of those "Ancient Aliens" theories and the like.

At least in regards to Homo Sapiens, the idea implied by these theories is that early humans (particularly at the edges of the written record) weren't "smart" enough to build things like the pyramids or the Indus river valley civilizations or the Sumerians. These humans needed the help of some advanced knowledge, and then somehow humans got an intelligence bump to our state today.

However early and pre-historical humans are humans, so thus they had the same (or similar) intelligence and potential as us. People mistake the fact that in essence modern humans are working from the Encyclopedia Brittanica compared to early humans Boy Scout merit badge handbook equivalents of cumulative knowledge.

Neanderthals, while probably not on the same level of Homo Sapiens, was still the runner up in the hominid evolution contest. Which is not too shabby.

Gen.Mannerheim said:

At least in regards to Homo Sapiens, the idea implied by these theories is that early humans (particularly at the edges of the written record) weren't "smart" enough to build things like the pyramids or the Indus river valley civilizations or the Sumerians. These humans needed the help of some advanced knowledge, and then somehow humans got an intelligence bump to our state today.

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A minor quibble, but 'early humans' refers to species like Homo Erectus which existed millions of years ago. "Early humans" does not refer to the people who built the Pyramids.

However early and pre-historical humans are humans, so thus they had the same (or similar) intelligence and potential as us. People mistake the fact that in essence modern humans are working from the Encyclopedia Brittanica compared to early humans Boy Scout merit badge handbook equivalents of cumulative knowledge.

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Due to epigenetics and the brain's plasticity, I don't believe this follows logically. It may be the case but requires other evidence to establish it.

More generally on the OP, while I agree it is a bit wrong to call this stuff "buildings" it is certainly a construction, and it certainly demonstrates a level of technical and social sophistication that is highly impressive for so long ago.

Lexicus said:

A minor quibble, but 'early humans' refers to species like Homo Erectus which existed millions of years ago. "Early humans" does not refer to the people who built the Pyramids.

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Yeah my bad, it's been many moons since my Anthro classes in undergrad. I meant Homo Sapiens & H. Sapiens Sapiens

Lexicus said:

Due to epigenetics and the brain's plasticity, I don't believe this follows logically. It may be the case but requires other evidence to establish it.

More generally on the OP, while I agree it is a bit wrong to call this stuff "buildings" it is certainly a construction, and it certainly demonstrates a level of technical and social sophistication that is highly impressive for so long ago.

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Of course there has been general and impressive evolution & development in humanity since we've left Africa, but its still built on an impressive foundation that's the top of the hominids

Of course none of this touches on the real lost ancient civilization erased by history:

Star Trek: Voyager - Distant Origin!

trader/warrior said:

I think a lot of people vastly underestimate pre-historic man.

Caves would have been permanent and important features to people who were wide-ranging hunter-gatherers. At the time when man could build fires, 1 to 2 million years ago at the earliest but becoming widespread in the evidence record only 100k-200k years ago, they could also likely build shelters, even "lesser" animals like apes and birds do of course, but there would have been absolutely no reason to make something that would leave permanent traces other than the fire-pit. In a cave, stalactites/stalagmites would be what was available, and a natural place for people to return to, or for other groups to find and make further use of, leaving some of the few permanent traces of that time of man.

Still, this being 175000 years old is pretty astounding.

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This.