crossbow man overpowed?

joncnunn said:
I guess if the Crossbow is considered the best normal unit for its time frame, then that would make the Chinese UU the best one in the game. (2 attacks per turn).
Click to expand...

Chinese UU are super strong - even though reduced strength, 2 shots still does more damage than one, allows killing 2 units in the same turn. Or shoot then move, many tactical possibilities. And they become upgraded into rifles that can attack twice!

But I consider English UU (longbows) even stronger because of the 3 range. They can be positioned to be "untouchable", and they add an extra attack because of the range.

My opinion is influenced by a 3 vs 3 slugfest game of top league players. Our team had China, theirs England. My Chu-ko-Nus could not reach their Longbows in the back and were constantly being killed by knights. The front line was a meatgrinder on both sides. Their longbows were virtualy untouchable, and we didn't even know where all of them were because we didn't have vision on them.
 
My one complaint is that the ancient, classical and midieval range units should not be able to target or do the minimum 1pt of damage when attacking Musketeer, Rifleman and other gunpowder units. Alternatively, once one country discovers gunpowder the range of all non gunpowder weapons should be reduced by 1 or to a 1. It seems a simple fix. A tank should not be outranged by a a guy with a bow...:mischief:
 
warlordtheft said:
My one complaint is that the ancient, classical and midieval range units should not be able to target or do the minimum 1pt of damage when attacking Musketeer, Rifleman and other gunpowder units. Alternatively, once one country discovers gunpowder the range of all non gunpowder weapons should be reduced by 1 or to a 1. It seems a simple fix. A tank should not be outranged by a a guy with a bow...:mischief:
Click to expand...

i agree totally with this. There should be something to take into account the tech level of the units. Ive had riflemen being killed by swordsmen, or a plane being shotdown attacking a crossbowman.
 
Just saw a post about Gods and Kings tweaks to the combat system. Apparently units will have 100HP rather than 10hp and damage will still be a minimum of 1hp. Also, crossbowman will upgrade to a gatling gun (a 1 hex ranged unit).
 
warlordtheft said:
Just saw a post about Gods and Kings tweaks to the combat system. Apparently units will have 100HP rather than 10hp and damage will still be a minimum of 1hp. Also, crossbowman will upgrade to a gatling gun (a 1 hex ranged unit).
Click to expand...

Nice! This makes sense. An archer will only do 1 out of 100 hp to an advanced unit, instead of the crazy 1 out of 10 hp. I really hate when my rifles get stuck on an island and die to 2 barb galleys shooting at them. Somehow those bullets can't reach the ships, but the bow and arrows can hit them on land.
 
apocalypse105 said:
Silverfuturist said:
Crosbowman usally have a extra sword or axe with them a crosbowm is easy to carry so they just put it somewhere else and take the sword to fight

However this isn't about reality but about gameplay I really see a broken unit here


Because range units are so powerfull its pretty balanced to give them a low melee strenght it balance it out however the crosbowman doesn't seem to fallow the rule
Click to expand...

And the crossbowman should have its melee strength reduced. It can be easily via xml. I had one of my crossbows charged by knights in my current game. I thought the crossbows were dead. Nope they sent the knights packing. Which is ridiculous.

Silverfuturist said:
Nice! This makes sense. An archer will only do 1 out of 100 hp to an advanced unit, instead of the crazy 1 out of 10 hp. I really hate when my rifles get stuck on an island and die to 2 barb galleys shooting at them. Somehow those bullets can't reach the ships, but the bow and arrows can hit them on land.
Click to expand...

Actually, damage will be upscaled as well. It would have to be. However, units will have a much better chance of survival, and the damage will be more varied making combat more interesting. This make upgrades and unit experience that much more important. It may also help the AI. Although, there has been a whole thread or two speculating this. No one is really sure what the changes are officially. We still have much to learn about the new combat system yet.
Click to expand...
 
joncnunn said:
I guess if the Crossbow is considered the best normal unit for its time frame, then that would make the Chinese UU the best one in the game. (2 attacks per turn).
Click to expand...

I would say Chinese UU are about even with longbows (but can be better if you can get the range promotions) and those two are only second to Keshiks. Seriously movement of 5 and can move after attack. Keshiks are badly overpower to the point of being broken, as there's virtually no way to counter them.
 
WeaselSlapper said:
I would say Chinese UU are about even with longbows (but can be better if you can get the range promotions) and those two are only second to Keshiks. Seriously movement of 5 and can move after attack. Keshiks are badly overpower to the point of being broken, as there's virtually no way to counter them.
Click to expand...

In single player I agree, the AI won't try any kind of creative defense plan and is basically helpless against them. In addition, you get crazy promotions fast with Keshiks causing a domination snowball effect.

In multi-player I have not lost a game to the Mongols yet and I would rather face Keshiks than chu-ko-nus or longbows. It does take some techniques to defend vs Keshiks, and when I roll Mongols I usually dominate with Keshiks.

The Keshiks are fragile, knights kill them with ease. I have roads set up around my cities so that my knights and horsemen can hit and retreat. The crazy promotions people get vs the AI they don't get vs intelligent humans as there is high unit turnover vs good opponents. Very often the promotion is used as a heal to save the unit. Also if the Mongols are near you then place your cities near them in such a way that Keshiks don't have easy access to bombard your city and retreat. A city with rivers and rough terrain placed nicely around it will put a stop to those annoying hit and run tactics, especially when you have mounted units on roads to wipe them out.

I got killed in a 2x2 where I had Keshiks and my opponent had Camel Archers, which had a higher attack and a higher defense value. Agaisnt the AI I would take Keshiks over Camel Archers, but against a strong human opponent... I prefer Camels.
 
warlordtheft said:
Just saw a post about Gods and Kings tweaks to the combat system. Apparently units will have 100HP rather than 10hp and damage will still be a minimum of 1hp. Also, crossbowman will upgrade to a gatling gun (a 1 hex ranged unit).
Click to expand...

I take it the Gatling Gun has a good melee strength? (Otherwise there doesn't seem much point in a one hex ranged unit since they currently can't be stacked with any other unit)

Also, isn't the Longbow's extra range implemented by a promotion? If so, it would seem that England gets a free 2 hex ranged Gatling Gun for any unit that used to be a Longbow.
But how about the Chinese with their Gatling Gun with two attacks?
 
I agree with Silverfuturist. Keshiks are pretty average in mp.
 
joncnunn said:
Also, isn't the Longbow's extra range implemented by a promotion? If so, it would seem that England gets a free 2 hex ranged Gatling Gun for any unit that used to be a Longbow.
But how about the Chinese with their Gatling Gun with two attacks?
Click to expand...

Most UU abilities are granted via promotion so they do stay with upgraded unit.

At this point it's pretty safe to assume Gatling Gun promoted from longbow will have a range of 2 and a Gatling Gun promoted from a Chinese crossbow will be able to attack twice.
 
WeaselSlapper said:
Most UU abilities are granted via promotion so they do stay with upgraded unit.

At this point it's pretty safe to assume Gatling Gun promoted from longbow will have a range of 2 and a Gatling Gun promoted from a Chinese crossbow will be able to attack twice.
Click to expand...

That is right, most do, but not all. For example, I had a Songhai Knight to Russian Cossak upgrade plan on a team game, but when I gifted my Songhai Knights to Russia and he upgraded them to Cossaks the city-bonus promotions were lost! I wanted to have city-killing-bonsus-vs-wounded cavalry! Boo!:aargh:

But Chu-Ko-Nus upgraded to rifles getting blitz (double attacks) is cool.:dance:
 
Silverfuturist said:
That is right, most do, but not all. For example, I had a Songhai Knight to Russian Cossak upgrade plan on a team game, but when I gifted my Songhai Knights to Russia and he upgraded them to Cossaks the city-bonus promotions were lost! I wanted to have city-killing-bonsus-vs-wounded cavalry! Boo!:aargh:

But Chu-Ko-Nus upgraded to rifles getting blitz (double attacks) is cool.:dance:
Click to expand...

In your example you were trying to upgrade on UU to another UU and I would guess that what caused your issue.

Technically blitz is different than Chu-Ko-Nus attack twice ability. Blitz allows for an unlimited number of attacks, while the Chu-Ko-Nus ability and logistics only allow for one extra attack. If you get a rifleman with blitz all the way to Mech infantry he will be able to attack up to 4 times. An upgraded Chu-Ko-Nus will only be able to attack twice.
 
good to know about Longbows. some of the UUs abilities arent defined by a promo like keshiks ranged attack (upgrade to cav and they lose their ranged attk) so i thought that when longbows got upgraded they lost their +1 range (havent played england enough to know).

i still have a ton to learn about each UU, and the expansion changes seem to really redefine the game.
 
Hammer Rabbi said:
good to know about Longbows. some of the UUs abilities arent defined by a promo like keshiks ranged attack (upgrade to cav and they lose their ranged attk) so i thought that when longbows got upgraded they lost their +1 range (havent played england enough to know).

i still have a ton to learn about each UU, and the expansion changes seem to really redefine the game.
Click to expand...

They do at the moment, as they upgrade to Rifles, but that is/may be changing in the expansion. It is likely they will upgrade to Gatling Guns or Machine Guns. It they do, it is likely they will keep their ranged promotions. However, nothing is definite about this at present (as far as I am aware!).
 
Hammer Rabbi said:
good to know about Longbows. some of the UUs abilities arent defined by a promo like keshiks ranged attack (upgrade to cav and they lose their ranged attk) so i thought that when longbows got upgraded they lost their +1 range (havent played england enough to know).

i still have a ton to learn about each UU, and the expansion changes seem to really redefine the game.
Click to expand...

First you shouldn't upgrade keshiks until you can turn them into tanks. The ranged is not a promotion for the keshis, it's just what it is. When you upgrade a chariot archer to a night it also goes from ranged to melee. The Keshik's special ability is to move after making a ranged attack. You don't really notice this in the cav because they also have that ability to move after attack.

It is important to realize thought that not all promotions affect ranged and melee equally. Terrain combat promotions stay with a unit when it's upgraded but they lose their effectiveness when you change from ranged to melee.
 
knights can move after attack. keshiks replace knights, correct? i think their real special ability is the ranged part while still having the move-after mechanic. conquistadors replace knights and can move after attack as well.

and yeah, i learned upgrading keshiks sucks. if i cant win the game during the keshik phase (with lots of promos) i lose interest. i havent played them on deity yet though. i think i wouldnt be able to totally win by then on deity.

(as an after-thought, i think you should be able to rename your units any time, not just during the promos. i lost units because i forgot to rename them and know which ones were for diff terrain. mostly because i was impatient and bleary-eyed late at night, haha. unless there is a mod that lets you do that. im not too familiar with mods.)
 
joncnunn said:
I take it the Gatling Gun has a good melee strength? (Otherwise there doesn't seem much point in a one hex ranged unit since they currently can't be stacked with any other unit)

Also, isn't the Longbow's extra range implemented by a promotion? If so, it would seem that England gets a free 2 hex ranged Gatling Gun for any unit that used to be a Longbow.
But how about the Chinese with their Gatling Gun with two attacks?
Click to expand...


Don't know. The details are sketchy at this point. Also, due to the change to the 100pt system combat values are going to be tweaked as well. So the crossbow might be made a bit weaker (pure speculation on my part ;)).
 
WeaselSlapper said:
In your example you were trying to upgrade on UU to another UU and I would guess that what caused your issue.

Technically blitz is different than Chu-Ko-Nus attack twice ability. Blitz allows for an unlimited number of attacks, while the Chu-Ko-Nus ability and logistics only allow for one extra attack. If you get a rifleman with blitz all the way to Mech infantry he will be able to attack up to 4 times. An upgraded Chu-Ko-Nus will only be able to attack twice.
Click to expand...

Interesting theory - however the Aztec UU (jaguars) upgrades into the Japan UU (Samurai) with a sword as a middle step - we do this often. Those things just walk through rows lesser units like swords, horsemen, etc, and come out unscathed!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

A
(7-08b/7-30d) Polynesia/Shoshone/Huns changes
2
Replies
24
Views
680
azum4roll
A
amateurgamer88
AG Land Combat Mod for AGYRM
Replies
3
Views
1K
amateurgamer88
amateurgamer88
Recursive
  • Locked
New BETA Version - 4.5.1 (February 28, 2024)
9 10 11
Replies
211
Views
24K
Recursive
Recursive
Aurelesk
Unit comparison between Civilization V and VI
Replies
17
Views
2K
Boris Gudenuf
Boris Gudenuf
Y
(7-45) Recon Units Line Rework
Replies
11
Views
467
N.Core
N.Core
Top Bottom