"Fall Patch" announced

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That goes both ways. I've had the AI culture bomb ME. When you're trying to be peaceful and lose a vital strategic resource, it sucks rocks.

I have never seen this happen. Once in a hundred years is not enough. If they make the AI do this more often fine. If not they should get rid of the offensive citadel ability.
 
One thing that has always bothered me about the Austrian UA (which I don't see in the notes) is that CS which are married into the Austrian Empire lose their status as CS. In every other game mechanic involving CS, they are treated like capitals. Chief among this is that they cannot be razed no matter how many times they change hands.

Now enter Austria and its broken UA. Once Austria marries a CS, it ceases to be a CS. When a player is at war with Austria, they are free to burn all these former CS to the ground. The cannot, under any circumstances, liberate these CS either.

I would like to see CS absorbed into Austria remain CS for game mechanics reasons. They would get them with all of the buildings intact and without the :c5happy: penalty of a conquered city, bot for all other intents and purposes they would be treated like a conquered CS. When another player rolls up with an invasion force, they should be given the option to liberate CS from Austria, and should not under any circumstances be allowed to raze said CS to the ground.

Liberating them wouldn't make any sense because they haven't been conquered. They willingly decided to join their close allies, the Austrian empire, by marrying into their royal family. This is how I think it would go if you tried to liberate a Austrian city state:

You: "People of Zurich, you have been liberated!"

Them: "From who?"

You: "Austria"

Them: "We're Austrian."

You: "No you're not"

Them: "Yes we are. We discussed it at length and decided on joining them. Afterwards we celebrated with cake and coffee at the old windmill. We'd never had coffee before. We liked it so much we converted the whole place into a coffee house."

You: "As your long term allies we thought it was our duty to give you independence."

Them: "Well you were our allies by a hairs margin. Austria was very supportive. They built a road to their capital, they cleared out those barbarians, we wanted to see a tower made of porcelain and I swear to god they actually built the damn thing, they gave us three level one archer units, which while not practical was thoughtful, and they contributed to our public works project. You had five years to match that gift but you said that money was earmarked for a research agreement. Lastly, Austrian liked it so they put a ring on it."

You: "We're not the marrying type"

Them: "Austria is"

You: "Well you're free now."

Them: "Free to join Austria?"

You: "No, free to vote for us in the U.N."

Them: "We'd rather vote for Austria"

You: "Fine. Then you're a puppet."

Them: "Whatever. I hope a Hussar tramples your mother"

You: "Rude!"

Them: "Tell it to my Austrian-by-marriage butt"

...and scene


At the very least, this would introduce a compelling reason for a player to DOW Austria for taking one of its CS. They could liberate their CS ally. As it is now, they can only overthrow the Austria friendly government from the former CS and then choose to annex or burn their former CS ally which seems out of place.
That makes you sound like the jealous ex-boyfriend. She's off the market so you burn her house down? You know Jakarta would do anything for you but still you chase the unobtainable. If you're not careful Jakarta will go off and join the Hellenic League and it will just be you and Mongolia alone bad mouthing all the city states that had to good sense to move on.
 
I have never seen this happen. Once in a hundred years is not enough. If they make the AI do this more often fine. If not they should get rid of the offensive citadel ability.

I've seen it three times, and that's just when it happened to me. In my last game they seemed to me massing great generals by the boarder so after the first one I went to war to avoid losing more ground. The AI does it to other AIs too. There has to be a resource on the boarder that they don't have, otherwise it's a waste of a great general, and since the AI isn't as good at protecting units as a human, they may need to keep some GGs in reserve to replace losses.
 
Liberating them wouldn't make any sense because they haven't been conquered. They willingly decided to join their close allies, the Austrian empire, by marrying into their royal family. This is how I think it would go if you tried to liberate a Austrian city state:

You: "People of Zurich, you have been liberated!"

Them: "From who?"

You: "Austria"

Them: "We're Austrian."

You: "No you're not"

Them: "Yes we are. We discussed it at length and decided on joining them. Afterwards we celebrated with cake and coffee at the old windmill. We'd never had coffee before. We liked it so much we converted the whole place into a coffee house."

You: "As your long term allies we thought it was our duty to give you independence."

Them: "Well you were our allies by a hairs margin. Austria was very supportive. They built a road to their capital, they cleared out those barbarians, we wanted to see a tower made of porcelain and I swear to god they actually built the damn thing, they gave us three level one archer units, which while not practical was thoughtful, and they contributed to our public works project. You had five years to match that gift but you said that money was earmarked for a research agreement. Lastly, Austrian liked it so they put a ring on it."

You: "We're not the marrying type"

Them: "Austria is"

You: "Well you're free now."

Them: "Free to join Austria?"

You: "No, free to vote for us in the U.N."

Them: "We'd rather vote for Austria"

You: "Fine. Then you're a puppet."

Them: "Whatever. I hope a Hussar tramples your mother"

You: "Rude!"

Them: "Tell it to my Austrian-by-marriage butt"

...and scene


That makes you sound like the jealous ex-boyfriend. She's off the market so you burn her house down? You know Jakarta would do anything for you but still you chase the unobtainable. If you're not careful Jakarta will go off and join the Hellenic League and it will just be you and Mongolia alone bad mouthing all the city states that had to good sense to move on.

Okay, that was funny stuff. I agree though, you shouldn't liberate CS that Austria marries, they chose to come into the alliance freely.
 
Just place a non-Habsburg local noble on the throne.
 
I laughed so hard reading your post Annoyance.

Well played :D
 
I have never seen this happen. Once in a hundred years is not enough. If they make the AI do this more often fine. If not they should get rid of the offensive citadel ability.

They do it when they are feeling confident about taking you on, either through superior (equal?) military or superior (equal?) tech... or both. Stealing land is a great way to provoke war, and they know it.

That means Immortal for me.:(
 
They do it when they are feeling confident about taking you on, either through superior (equal?) military or superior (equal?) tech... or both. Stealing land is a great way to provoke war, and they know it.

That means Immortal for me.:(

I've also seen one AI do it to another AI. I've had it happen to myself too. But I only play on Prince level, so I can't vouch for higher difficulties.
 
No, there's no reason for that. It's of benefit to mounted units because they can already move and pillage - but they still suffer weaknesses against cities and aren't on the ideal upgrade path for domination generally, or for Berserkers specifically. And any Danish infantry unit disembarking is faster than most cavalry. The Danish bonus is that they get with infantry, ranged and siege an ability that other civs will have to invest in cavalry whose uses are otherwise limited to field engagements to obtain.



I like the fact that combat does change so drastically when Flight becomes available.

Most of difficulty domination at the higher levels is taking out carpets of units not cities (except early), mounted in moderation is great for domination. Not on the UU line, but benefits disproportionately from the patch, especially with denmark, as you can only disembark for one turn for a beach head. After that you still have a war to fight moving inland.

Change in warfare is different from imbalance. The added focus on fighters/anti air and logisticspush should partially redress this, but I was commenting that there is a lot of balancing to do. flight will still change warfare, but now it should change it ina way that's more even for both sides. Else the balance goes and the game gets rediculous.
 
It's good to finally see this, however I wonder how much difference it makes to an AI anyway? Doesn't the AI use the same code to determine what to build in a puppet as it does for its own cities?

While true, there's one thing they can't do in puppet cities: build units. I'm sure you've reduced an AI to all puppet ciites so that it had no hope of building a military again. This is a good change.

Can't wait for this patch! Some of these problems have been issues for a loooooooooooooooooooooooong time, and it's wonderful that 2K/Firaxis is dedicated to fixing them still.
 
While true, there's one thing they can't do in puppet cities: build units. I'm sure you've reduced an AI to all puppet ciites so that it had no hope of building a military again. This is a good change.

Can't wait for this patch! Some of these problems have been issues for a loooooooooooooooooooooooong time, and it's wonderful that 2K/Firaxis is dedicated to fixing them still.

People around here have claimed the AI can build units in Puppets and even rushbuy. Never seen it myself though.
 
People around here have claimed the AI can build units in Puppets and even rushbuy. Never seen it myself though.

I have. If someone is good at resizing screenshot thumbnails to something viewable, I could probably dig some out even.

I guess this means we'll see less of this kind of goldstacks on higher diff :(

Spoiler :
 
citadels were fun at first, after realizing how effective they could be used offensively - now they're just a cheap way to gain victory. you're in the middle of a war with your neighbour, and your great general rides across the border into enemy land and BUILDS a citadel which somehow captures all the villages and hamlets in the area and causes damage to any unit that goes near or even right inside it! How to kill your neighbour on Deity? start a war early game, take advantage of poor AI military tactics, kill units to get GG points, use GG's to surround AI capital so that taking the city is a cakewalk.
 
citadels were fun at first, after realizing how effective they could be used offensively - now they're just a cheap way to gain victory. you're in the middle of a war with your neighbour, and your great general rides across the border into enemy land and BUILDS a citadel which somehow captures all the villages and hamlets in the area and causes damage to any unit that goes near or even right inside it! How to kill your neighbour on Deity? start a war early game, take advantage of poor AI military tactics, kill units to get GG points, use GG's to surround AI capital so that taking the city is a cakewalk.

I don't use it in my games. The only time I might consider using it, is if another AI civ actually did this to me. Normally, I would feel like I was cheating by doing this. Human players already have enough tools to exploit the AI.

To me the whole fun of the game is trying to conquer enemy cities. It is not challenging if you cannot figure out how to take a city. I could see if you were playing a tough deliberate game, like 'Harder Siamese Twins' or something. Even then you'll feel much better about winning without using offensive citadels. Sorry Buzzdowan. :lol:
 
citadels were fun at first, after realizing how effective they could be used offensively - now they're just a cheap way to gain victory. you're in the middle of a war with your neighbour, and your great general rides across the border into enemy land and BUILDS a citadel which somehow captures all the villages and hamlets in the area and causes damage to any unit that goes near or even right inside it! How to kill your neighbour on Deity? start a war early game, take advantage of poor AI military tactics, kill units to get GG points, use GG's to surround AI capital so that taking the city is a cakewalk.

I don't use it in my games. The only time I might consider using it, is if another AI civ actually did this to me. Normally, I would feel like I was cheating by doing this. Human players already have enough tools to exploit the AI.

To me the whole fun of the game is trying to conquer enemy cities. It is not challenging if you cannot figure out how to take a city. I could see if you were playing a tough deliberate game, like 'Harder Siamese Twins' or something. Even then, you'll feel much better about winning without using offensive citadels. Sorry Buzzdowan. :lol:

Not sure why this posted twice, it shouldn't have. Something wrong with CFC today? It took a bit to get on here.
 
Most of difficulty domination at the higher levels is taking out carpets of units not cities (except early), mounted in moderation is great for domination. Not on the UU line, but benefits disproportionately from the patch, especially with denmark, as you can only disembark for one turn for a beach head. After that you still have a war to fight moving inland.

If you want to go domination with Denmark, sure - but then if you're planning on invading the rest of the planet as the Danish, you don't have a lot of room to complain about lack of plausibility... The Danes didn't use cavalry in the Viking era because they were coastal raiders; if they plan a land-based invasion there's no less reason for them to use cavalry than anyone else.

I see Denmark's UA less as one for a strict domination civ (it's not so good for that even with this change, and it's too good for civilian exploration to boot) and more one that can get you a big advantage when you use it - you're almost certain to take any coastal city you target since you can hit before defenders are ready, so just use it to grab a good city or two to boost your game and then play peacefully.

Change in warfare is different from imbalance. The added focus on fighters/anti air and logisticspush should partially redress this, but I was commenting that there is a lot of balancing to do. flight will still change warfare, but now it should change it ina way that's more even for both sides. Else the balance goes and the game gets rediculous.

The change I like is the fact that the civ which gains air superiority can basically shut down attacks against them - and, with scouts in place, can attack across a much wider area; it's a type of warfare that very definitely should be reflected by a strong disparity between the 'haves' and the 'have nots'. Making it 'more even for both sides' runs counter to that. Okay, the first flying units we get are WWI aircraft, and they really didn't change combat all that drastically, but in game terms I think it helps to show that clear disparity between flight and non-flight.
 
I don't use it in my games. The only time I might consider using it, is if another AI civ actually did this to me. Normally, I would feel like I was cheating by doing this. Human players already have enough tools to exploit the AI.

To me the whole fun of the game is trying to conquer enemy cities. It is not challenging if you cannot figure out how to take a city. I could see if you were playing a tough deliberate game, like 'Harder Siamese Twins' or something. Even then, you'll feel much better about winning without using offensive citadels. Sorry Buzzdowan. :lol:

I don`t use Citadels much myself and usually defensively, I also think it`s like a cheat. Too easy to create and use for what it does. But just now while attacking Boudicca`s last city (her capital) I saw that she had a Citadel right next to it. After two hours of trying to capture her city I`ve decided to save and rest while I redo my strategy and horde my arty and tanks before going again. Damn she stubbornly defended it well!

Point is, the AI does use them sometimes.
 
I can't wait for the patch to come out so someone can be disappointed and say:
"Fall Patch? More like FAIL Patch!"
Then I can add them to my ignore list.
 
Liberating them wouldn't make any sense because they haven't been conquered. They willingly decided to join their close allies, the Austrian empire, by marrying into their royal family. This is how I think it would go if you tried to liberate a Austrian city state:

You: "People of Zurich, you have been liberated!"

Them: "From who?"

You: "Austria"

Them: "We're Austrian."

You: "No you're not"

Them: "Yes we are. We discussed it at length and decided on joining them. Afterwards we celebrated with cake and coffee at the old windmill. We'd never had coffee before. We liked it so much we converted the whole place into a coffee house."

You: "As your long term allies we thought it was our duty to give you independence."

Them: "Well you were our allies by a hairs margin. Austria was very supportive. They built a road to their capital, they cleared out those barbarians, we wanted to see a tower made of porcelain and I swear to god they actually built the damn thing, they gave us three level one archer units, which while not practical was thoughtful, and they contributed to our public works project. You had five years to match that gift but you said that money was earmarked for a research agreement. Lastly, Austrian liked it so they put a ring on it."

You: "We're not the marrying type"

Them: "Austria is"

You: "Well you're free now."

Them: "Free to join Austria?"

You: "No, free to vote for us in the U.N."

Them: "We'd rather vote for Austria"

You: "Fine. Then you're a puppet."

Them: "Whatever. I hope a Hussar tramples your mother"

You: "Rude!"

Them: "Tell it to my Austrian-by-marriage butt"

...and scene


That makes you sound like the jealous ex-boyfriend. She's off the market so you burn her house down? You know Jakarta would do anything for you but still you chase the unobtainable. If you're not careful Jakarta will go off and join the Hellenic League and it will just be you and Mongolia alone bad mouthing all the city states that had to good sense to move on.
...and yet I can build a courthouse and they will happily become part of my empire? Maybe think of it like a coup...the people in power decided that they like Austria so I march in with tanks, have the newly married couple executed, and replace them with their political rivals who never wanted to be part of Austria to begin with.

To use your analogy, the king of a sovereign kingdom (in this case the CS) would not marry his son into the Austrian Empire and give up his family's royal claim to the throne of his kingdom. If that son were to die (e.g. in some tragic training accident orchestrated by my military), the next in line to the throne probably doesn't care so much that his brother/cousin/nephew was married to an Austrian princess when he takes the throne. He may want to be independent or kneel before my General and take an oath of fealty to my Empire.

It's all semantics really.

The point I was making is that CS are treated like capitals in the game. Then along comes a broken, half backed UA in G&K that turns a major game mechanic upside down. If a map is generated with 8 civs and 12 CS, there aught to be 20 cities in the game which count as capitals. If Austria decides to merge with 6 of the CS by marriage, they shouldn't cease to have their unique CS/Capital status in the game any more than they do if Alexander rolls in with a bunch of Phalanxes and Companion Cavalry and makes them part of the Greek Empire. When Caesar rolls over Austria in the Industrial Era and burns down the majority of the cities, the map should not become 7 civs and 6 CS because Austria's UA wasn't implemented properly. The devs are putting a lot of effort into fixing an obviously broken UA, and this is part of what is broken about it.

"Hello King of Zurich, my name is Askia and I am here with 100,000 troops to burn your city to the ground!"

"Oh no, great lord of the Songhai. I beg you. You can't burn down this cultural marvel that is Zurich. We will happily become your puppet state, or even capitulate to your empire's rule."

"Ah, Lord of Zurich. I would be compelled by your argument, but unfortunately, your decision to marry a Princess of Austria has forced my hand. My men will torch all your houses, kill all your men, enslave your women, and steal all your worldly possessions! The memory of Zurich will be short lived and my workers will be along shortly to replace the ruins of your once grand city with a more suitable tile improvement...perhaps a trading post! Hahahahahahaha!!!!"

"If only I had read the prenup..."
 
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