Football Thread No. 9

Thanks, now let's see what happens in Bilbao. :)

I must bow down before the supporters of Athletic, I wasn't there but many peers say they were amazing and lost with an incredible amount of fair-play. At half time one of our supporters groups hoisted a sign saying "RIP IÑIGO, 1312" at half time and everybody from Athletic and Sporting cheered eachother. At the end, I was told there was a friendly "war" of canticos and later many scarfs were exchanged. My peers say you were unlike all the other supporters we have hosted since they remember.

You don't see that ever happening in here. :goodjob:

Comments here are that you were pretty good hosts.

"RIP IÑIGO" was a nice detail that I am sure that most supporters here are not going to forgot. For those who are not aware about the issue Iñigo was a guy that went to take some beers with friends after match against schalke and got hiton head by a ball shot by riot police and got in a coma, 4 days later he passed away. There is not clear yet why the riot police charged there. Police claims that there was a quarrel between two people, which does not explain why they sent 4 riot vans and charged against all the people in the place.
 
Europa League this season has been way more interesting than the CL. Very entertaining football last night no doubt.
Falcao is fantastic. Atletico Madrid got a good deal, at least player-wise, by replacing Aguero with Falcao. Aguero is pretty good but I don't think he ever had a season when he performed as good and as consistently as Falcao has for Atletico (and scored as much).

And something is going on at Sporting. I don't know if Sá Pinto is a good coach, but he's made his 11 players all play like he did: with indomitable energy and commitment.

@ Tak: that's absolutely hilarious.
Here's another one related to Barcelona you might appreciate. They have a few others with the same concept on youtube.


Link to video.
 
Well, I'm not too sure about that either TBH. I hear a lot about how technically gifted these Barcalonian players are when they have the ball and how well the pass it and control it and generally keep it well enough despite the pressure. That is quite good. The safe pass which is by far the majority of the passes they do, isn't a technically difficult pass by any means. I think when it is freaking impressive is when they make an error and Fabregas or Messi or any player they have has to dribble it around several players and pass it out to Xavi once again. You don't see ability like that often.
On the other hand if it was that easy other teams would copy that style too, so it's a tricky one. I haven't made up my mind on it :S
It's not easy at all. Try playing in a team with a few friends and doing that. It takes years of practice. And it's compeltely maddening to play against. And, perhaps on TV it isn't noticeable, but if you are in a stadium and you can see the sheer size of a football pitch and watch a team do that all across it, you suddenly realise they're damn good.
 
Indeed, it's not easy. But, like Quackers, I don't particularly enjoy watching it. Very little variety in Barcelona's play - always Plan A. I still reckon their defensive closing down doesn't get the credit it deserves - it can be very aggressive, and is only possible because they play keep ball for 70% of the game. So, yeah, difficult, and maddening to play against. But I really don't find it a lot of fun to watch either. Occasionally there is some moment of genius from Messi, and some of the through passes are also breathtakingly good, but I'd rather watch football which was less calculated and more flamboyant. Hell, I'd rather watch Raith Rovers.
 
Comments here are that you were pretty good hosts.

"RIP IÑIGO" was a nice detail that I am sure that most supporters here are not going to forgot. For those who are not aware about the issue Iñigo was a guy that went to take some beers with friends after match against schalke and got hiton head by a ball shot by riot police and got in a coma, 4 days later he passed away. There is not clear yet why the riot police charged there. Police claims that there was a quarrel between two people, which does not explain why they sent 4 riot vans and charged against all the people in the place.


Link to video.

Fans chanting their opponent's name after they've lost to them... If this forum had the : prayer : emoticon, you would deserve one for each of your supporters that were there. May the best team advance through to the final. :)
 
IFAB approves the revolutionary special free-kick spray-on foam! So now players will have less excuses for moving barriers and balls up and down for free kicks.
 
Indeed, it's not easy. But, like Quackers, I don't particularly enjoy watching it. Very little variety in Barcelona's play - always Plan A. I still reckon their defensive closing down doesn't get the credit it deserves - it can be very aggressive, and is only possible because they play keep ball for 70% of the game. So, yeah, difficult, and maddening to play against. But I really don't find it a lot of fun to watch either. Occasionally there is some moment of genius from Messi, and some of the through passes are also breathtakingly good, but I'd rather watch football which was less calculated and more flamboyant. Hell, I'd rather watch Raith Rovers.
That's why the 1999 treble-winners were better -in a way- than the 2009 treblers. They had more than one way of attacking. Barcelona do one thing that does wrack my nerves which is use free kicks and corners to do a backwards pass and start their passing game from a fixed position. Might be good work, but I enjoy the thrill of trying to figure out who's gonna head it in -or out! (like Oli Gunnar Solksjær, for one).
 
Messi's growth hormone treatment is rarely mentioned. Whenever I watch Barca play I have doubts over their integrity, given the rarity of growth hormone treatment and the rarity of Messi's ability. Additionally Messi's life seems to be a bit too clinical in the way his family were paid to come to Barca just so he could play football at such a young age. I know most footballers live extraordinary lives but after all theyre only entertainers, so Im not entirely comfortable watching a child slave perform for me. At least Ronaldo is forthright about being spoiled and selfish.
 
Messi's growth hormone treatment is rarely mentioned. Whenever I watch Barca play I have doubts over their integrity, given the rarity of growth hormone treatment and the rarity of Messi's ability. Additionally Messi's life seems to be a bit too clinical in the way his family were paid to come to Barca just so he could play football at such a young age. I know most footballers live extraordinary lives but after all theyre only entertainers, so Im not entirely comfortable watching a child slave perform for me. At least Ronaldo is forthright about being spoiled and selfish.

It's pretty hard line to view Messi as a child slave. I was certainly uncomfortable about how football players were owned by clubs pre-Bosman, but after that case it has become much more reasonable. Since some players still exercise their right not to play or to demand a move after they have signed a contract to perform for a club for a certain number of years, I'd suggest the pendulum has swung too far to the players.

If you sign a 4 year contract, then that's what the deal is, to me. You perform the role for 4 years and then you're free to move on, no strings attached.
 
I would happily be a child slave for barca :p As long as I end up with £30 million /year (includes sponsership):p
 
And it's compeltely maddening to play against. And, perhaps on TV it isn't noticeable, but if you are in a stadium and you can see the sheer size of a football pitch and watch a team do that all across it, you suddenly realise they're damn good.

Indeed. It's also physically and mentally exhausting to play against that, which is probably the real reason they score so many goals.

On the other hand, "the best team that has ever played football" are very close to having a disastrous season. There's probably a 50/50 chance they will lose both trophies, perhaps to Real Madrid.
 
I still reckon their defensive closing down doesn't get the credit it deserves - it can be very aggressive, and is only possible because they play keep ball for 70% of the game.

Absolutely!
It has reached greater heights than this season, but imo that's the most impressive part of their game. It's the reason why this typical analysis the press regurgitates about player A vs. Mascherano or how will the weakened defence of Barça with 3 regulars sidelined cope with the centre forwards of team Y is meaningless crap. Opposition strikers are generally chasing hoofed balls on the wrong area of the pitch because the pressure is so intense and all the players, from Messi to Valdes are so good at off the ball positioning. (Mascherano for example gave an inteview the other day saying how so much of what he took for granted on how to play the game had to be forgotten and new principles relearned. Such as get away from where the ball is rather than the opposite in both attack and defence.)

Yet...
...their defence wouldn't work so well if their possession game wasn't so good. Dani Alves plays almost as a winger. Piqué charges forward often. Occasionally they have 6 or 7 players inside or at the edge of the box. That means loads of space behind their backs that could be exploited in counter attacks. But the opposition rarely does it. Because they rarely have enough players in position to do so. Because they know that as soon as they lose the ball they'll be doomed if they're not covering every inch of their half or last third of the pitch.

So I think over the past 3 or years there has been a kind of self feedback loop: Barcelona is technically brilliant, always finds a pass, always brings the ball near the goal and has the best player in the world. So, as their status as the ultimate football machine ever assembled grew, other teams became less and less adventurous, the games are spent more and more at near the goal line of the opposition, with more and more defenders packed in a small area. Therefore they pass more and more around.

For that reason - their reputation and the psychological effect this has on other teams - I think they'll be winning and titles games beyond what they should. It will take a while for teams to realise Barça is no longer as powerful.

In fact, I sometimes think if we're not living that period already. If you compare them to, say, 2 or 3 years ago, the dependence on Messi was never so immense. You could argue they'd be way out of contention in the league at least if Messi hadn't been carrying them around scoring 1 or 2 goals in almost every game for months.
This dependence on Messi is in fact very deliberate and planned a long time ago by Guardiola. I don't know if it came by option or necessity but it's the reason why the likes of Eto'o and Ibrahimovic were dismissed. Their presence was incompatible, both in terms of playing style and in terms of egos, with Guardiola's decision of building the whole team around Messi and thus having to change the latter's role and position and the team's attacking formation.

The other reason why I'm suspecting they might be on the limit is their performance against Chelsea. Not their attacking performance but indeed their defensive one and the quality, or lack thereof, of the pressing. I'm not talking about the goal itself either, but on many occasions Chelsea were able to hold the ball and come forward with much more ease than Barça would allow in the recent past. It's just that Chelsea never committed enough players to try and do more damage.

Otoh, they might just have been tired of the relentless pursuit of Madrid in the league and thinking they have ti play 2 more times in less than a week against Real Madrid and Chelsea again.

It's not easy at all. Try playing in a team with a few friends and doing that. It takes years of practice. And it's compeltely maddening to play against. And, perhaps on TV it isn't noticeable, but if you are in a stadium and you can see the sheer size of a football pitch and watch a team do that all across it, you suddenly realise they're damn good.

I think it's the fact they make it look so easy that makes those passes look, well, easy side passes. But in fact what they're doing, or what they can do routinely if needed, is pass the ball around on 1st touch under pressure. Not all of them of course, but the likes of Messi, Iniesta, Xavi, Busquets and Piqué (possibly the spine of the team, from one end to the other) can do it all day long. No one else can do this. Not even a world class player educated at their academy, but only recently returned after many years abroad, like Fabregas is comfortable at it.

I find it beautiful although I admit I also find it lacking and limited on many other ocasions. It could also be interpreted, paradoxically, as a defensive style, a new type of catenaccio. :crazyeye: Only whereas other teams in the past have used a very narrow approach to frustrate and dominate by using, either their massive physical or tactical superiority, Barcelona are the pioneers of doing the same thing via their technical superiority. So there you have it. Of the 'holy trinity' of football - athleticism, tactics and technique, they alone explored the last aspect to the utmost level, in the sense they've created a paradigm, so to speak, entirely dedicated to it (like, e.g., Herrera's Inter was a tactical masterpiece, or some of the northern european club teams of the 70s a product of athleticism).

But because technique is so much harder to perfect than tactics and physique, and as I've argued in this forum before (I think) I suspect Barcelona might be a one of a kind, a product of a special moment and special talents and might not change the face of football as miuch as other revolutionary teams did in the past.

That said I'd prefer another team to win the competitions they're playing this year for the simple reason I cannot stand the sense of moral entitlement some of their fans and players distill, as if they alone played the only morally acceptable brand of football.

I'll miss them when, eventually, they go away though. Like I said, they can be a thing of beauty and one of the reasons many people got tired of them is because they've banalized beauty. :)

Ok, here's my collection of disjointed, lazy saturday afternoon, thoughts about the subject, probably incoherent. Sorry about the long post. :p
 
Pangur Bán;11439859 said:
Indeed. It's also physically and mentally exhausting to play against that, which is probably the real reason they score so many goals.

Indeed. (and much more synthetic than what I argued above :crazyeye: )

On the other hand, "the best team that has ever played football" are very close to having a disastrous season. There's probably a 50/50 chance they will lose both trophies, perhaps to Real Madrid.

I wouldn't want to have to decide if they're the best ever or not, but I'm pretty sure the heights of this rivalry with Real Madrid were never reached before, and it is indeed something unique we're seeing:

- Arguably the two best teams in the world.
- Arguably the two best players in the world.
- Both players are also goal machines (neither of them being a pure striker), are neck and neck for the top scorer prize, and both currently have 41 league goals!! :eek:
- With a bow to Alex Ferguson, currently they also have the two most iconic coaches in world football.
- The conflict of styles: on the pitch, off the pitch. And also how different Messi is from Ronaldo and how different Guardiola is from Mourinho, personally and as tacticians. Barcelona's team is mostly homegrown, Real Madrid's was assembled on the back of record transfer fees with players from all around the world.
- All the football history these teams have and share.
- And finally, all that historical, social and political load. It is sometimes dramatised and exagerated, but this Barcelona = Catalonia, republicanism, regionalism, opposition, etc. while Real Madrid = Castile, francoism, centralism, government, etc. makes for a very good story.

All these factors combined simultaneously on the same pitch is pretty amazing in my view.
 
Congrats to Madrid! This Real Madrid team has finally emulated the achievements of two different Dundee Utd teams and beaten Barcelona 2-1 in Barcelona. ;)

Funny how all season it's all been about Barcelona, but the whole time R Madrid have been sneaking behind them (limelight-wise) being ruthlessly consistent and ready to take everything when Barcelona slipped up.

Indeed. (and much more synthetic than what I argued above :crazyeye: )



I wouldn't want to have to decide if they're the best ever or not, but I'm pretty sure the heights of this rivalry with Real Madrid were never reached before, and it is indeed something unique we're seeing:

- Arguably the two best teams in the world.
- Arguably the two best players in the world.
- Both players are also goal machines (neither of them being a pure striker), are neck and neck for the top scorer prize, and both currently have 41 league goals!! :eek:
- With a bow to Alex Ferguson, currently they also have the two most iconic coaches in world football.
- The conflict of styles: on the pitch, off the pitch. And also how different Messi is from Ronaldo and how different Guardiola is from Mourinho, personally and as tacticians. Barcelona's team is mostly homegrown, Real Madrid's was assembled on the back of record transfer fees with players from all around the world.
- All the football history these teams have and share.
- And finally, all that historical, social and political load. It is sometimes dramatised and exagerated, but this Barcelona = Catalonia, republicanism, regionalism, opposition, etc. while Real Madrid = Castile, francoism, centralism, government, etc. makes for a very good story.

All these factors combined simultaneously on the same pitch is pretty amazing in my view.

Given the superior athleticism of modern players, there is a case for saying the best teams of recent years are the best teams ever. If you look at the top of the Spanish league, there's a 30 point + gap between the big two and the rest, both in the 70s for goal difference, with all other Spanish teams below GD parity or just above. La Liga must now be the most uncompetitive senior league in Europe, at least among the big ones. An English may say, "in our league there wouldn't be that difference", but the problem for that is that the lesser Spanish teams consistently outperform the lesser English sides in UEFA competition.
 
Ok, here's my collection of disjointed, lazy saturday afternoon, thoughts about the subject, probably incoherent. Sorry about the long post. :p

Excellent post, MCdread. :goodjob: Worth the price of admission by itself.
 
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