Heroes in the mod

Looks like there will be one or two themed heroes per civ, probably using the warhammer armies books for information. I have a couple questions and a suggestion.

1.) Heroes will be buildable or available at the start of the game?
2.) The hero equipment (such as the Black Amulet for a Morathi unit, just throwing that out there) is going to always be a unique item or will there be overlap with similar powers (weapons excluded of course)?

My suggestion is that once the dust settles on the mod being switched over to FF, there should also be a number of minor heroes, such as Gotrek and Felix available for hire either through building them or hiring them with gold, like in History of Three Kingdoms or maybe even quests? Does anyone else agree that heroes should play a major role in the game, because I think they should. Leading armies and gunning down other heroes baby!

Heroes will be buildable units, possible also "upgradable" heroes across the ages, like the Scions hero. We'll start with 1 hero per faction initially.

Each hero is intended to get a unique equipment item. Probably some of these will overlap with other effects from other sources; its hard to keep them all unique.

I'm not sure about minor heroes. Possibly the best way is the great commander system.

But most warfare should be taking place between military units. Commands should mostly be for support, not taking on entire armies by themselves. The combat shouldn't become too hero-centric.

True. I was thinking about Great Commanders when writing. Are the heroes going to be major figures in the game lore such as Malekith, Settra, Karl Franz? For the tabletop these are the big wigs and every army book has extremely important characters as available heroes.

If so, what penalties would there be beyond losing the unit? Are all or any of the heroes going to be leaders? If so that should make their civs eligible for trait loss upon death? Opera and Valkrionn have excellent leader mods that could give a civ a chance to replace lost traits through future actions though that would need to be worked on.

Yeah, they're going to be the bigwigs. If you lose the hero, you lose a very powerful unit. I don't see any need for adding additional punishments like trait loss on top of that, particularly for the AI who is likely to be poor at hero management.

We were toying with having the leader choice effect hero access; if you have Malekith as your leader, you get Morathi as your hero, and vice versa.

That could happen, but we're going to start with 1 leader each. Thats still a long way away in development terms.

hmm so when i take the darkelves heroes and commanders as example (but as all armys have more or less the same structur it would work for all):

malekith and morathi are the leaders.

heroes would be:
helebron
lokhir
malus
shadowblade
kouran
tullaris

and the minors, great commander style:
master,dreadlord.

and the sorceress, supreme sorceress are the mage units.

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as you dont want too much equipment choices in the mod, the ones with the most equipment choices in the tabletop are used as minor heroes then.
maybe you could even use both as great commander:
first you can just get the "master" great commander and after i.e. half of the military tech tree or after a special research is done the great commanders get a bonus when they are attached to units... i.e. master +5% strengh, after research its 10%.
just as example to show what i mean... so after a while your civ knows how to train better great commanders. (maybe 2 promotions could be used there. the "master attached" promotion (+5%strengh) that the unit gets when you attach a great commander. and the "dreadlord attached" promotion (+10% strengh) would be used when you have research XY done)

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leaders and mages are not mentioned now... it should be clear.

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and these "special character" heroes usually already have unique equipment where one of these items could be used then. or a special ability (spell).
i.e.:
shadowblade:
like assassin, +1strength (like potion of strength), +1 firststrike (master assassin), enemy -1 firststrike (hand of khaine), when dead all units 1field around the shadowblade stack get damage (heart of woe).
item: potion of strength or heart of woe.
obtainable: same as assassin.
costs: 4x assassin costs.

lokhir fellheart:
like corsairs, +1 firststrike for each 3 units in the enemy stack (red blades), 10% chance to replace the attacked friendly unit (dareing leap), regeneration promotion (krakenhelm, i guess better no terror too or?), +25% chance to capture a defeated enemy unit as slave (merciless slaver)
item: krakenhelm or red blades.
obtainable: same as corsairs.
costs: 4x corsairs costs.

malus darkblade:
same as cold one knights, -1 enemy strength (warpsword), cold ones in same stack are not stupid (if they are stupid in the mod) (spite),
"tz arkan" spell: lasts 10 turns, +1 strength, +1 firststrike, if malus has not attacked this turn, one random unit in his stack gets 10-90% damage.
item: warpsword
obtainable: same as cold one knights.
costs: 4x cold one knights costs.

hellebron:
same as witch elves, -1 enemy firststrike (parrying blade), +1 firststrike (rune of khaine), 50% chance to ignore first spell damage each turn (amulet of fire), +2 strength (deathsword), all witch elves in the same stack get +10% strength (queen of khaine).
item: parrying blade, amulet of fire, deathsword.
obtainable: same as witch elves.
costs: 4x witch elves costs.

kouran:
same as black guard, +1 strength +1 firststrike (crimson death), if attacking enemy has less strength then kouran= 20% chance that attack fails (armor of grief), black guard in the same stack get +10% strength (black guard captain).
item: crimson death, armor of grief.
obtainable: same as black guard.
costs: 4x black guard costs.

tullaris:
same as executioner, +1 strength +10% strength no first strike (blade of har ganeth), causes fear (tullaris the dreaded), if tullaris kills an enemy unit= 10% chance to attack again (sacred slaughterer).
item: blade of har ganeth.
obtainable: same as executioners.
costs: 4x executioner costs.
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all items and special abilitys are promotions (i.e. hand of khaine, sacred slaughterer, red blades)
all heroes have unitlimit 1. (no 2x shadowblade). maybe even limit it to "one on the map". so that if 2 civs are playing as darkelves and one has builded i.e. shadowblade the other cant build him too. (a bit like wonders, you get a message when a hero got build and you can change your production when you build the hero too).
all heroes can be built again 10 turns after death. (they are heroes they get heavyly wounded instead of death)
unit who has killed a hero gets one of the ITEMS the hero carrys. (as promotion, item will be randomly chosen) this item cant be traded and when the unit dies its lost. (yeah its possible to get i.e. 4 units with helebrons sword when you beat her 4 times, but as most heroes have atleast 2 items and because it taked 10 turns again to build her it might not happen that often.)

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awaits the usual "too much promotions" "too much heroes" stuff from Ahriman.

no idea if one of them got too strong... i tryed to design them so that they are abit like the tabletop... i think helebron has some abilitys not (witchbrew) but i guess she doesnt need more...
i think each special char of each army could be designed like this.


but i think it would be worth to include all special characters in the mod. i think in all armys they could be seen as "hero of a unittype" (i.e. hellebron leader of the witchelves). so they are buildable when you can build the unit but takes way longer to build.
i think each hero of all armys have unique enough items and specialitys that they are not repetive... and these items and abilitys could be given with promotions.... ok there might be a very long list of promotions when each hero of each army has more or less 3-5 unique promotions that will just be used for that one unit... (bad performance result?) but it would add alot warhammer flair if all special characters can be build.

of course, first there could be just one like in FF, but over time all the others could be added.

Yeah other minor heroes could be added later with an emphasis on their support values. One problem with Battle has always been that the heroes went back and forth from being lone juggernauts of doom-death to weedy bodyguard hugging death magnets.

I agree that heroes should enhance, not overshadow other units except where it makes sense. Yeah there are genius level orc warlords out there but by the end of the day they are crazy scary warriors (or a wyvern riding, crown wearing shaman). So some heroes should be great when it comes to killing and bad with supporting troops, others should be a fair mix of both.

This would take a lot of balancing work and deciding whether or not to specialize civs along certain troops types (an idea I hate).

heroes would be:
helebron
lokhir
malus
shadowblade
kouran
tullaris

and the minors, great commander style:
master,dreadlord.

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There is just no way we would have 8 heroes per faction. Just, no way. Too much clutter, too much coding time, too much hero focus, too much art requirements (there are a lot of factions in this mod!).
We'll start with 1. Then, maybe add a second.

Warfare needs to be primarily about the military units, not just a ton of heroes everywhere. This isn't Heroes of Might and Magic.

We could include a lot of these sorts of things as names for Great Commanders, absolutely. I don't know if its possible to civ-link those things. But not in-game heroes as separate units with the hero promotion.

deciding whether or not to specialize civs along certain troops types (an idea I hate)

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This is pretty much already the intention encapsulated in the design.
The whole design vision of this mod is to have less replay value *within* a faction than a mod like FFH or something that gives you a ton of options, but much greater faction variation *across* factions, so different factions have different playstyles and warfare styles.

So, dwarves will always be about heavy infantry, brettonnia will always be about knights, orks will always be about offensive infantry, vampire counts will always be about powerful vampires and weak support, wood elves will always be monster/archer recon oriented and weaker outside their forests, chaos tribes will always have good melee infnatry and access to demons, Skaven will always have swarms of weak clanrats etc. etc.
Most civs still *have* a fairly complete unit roster, so they can build whatever types they like, but they will always be better if they focus on their speciality.
Similarly why we're not letting (most) factions choose which religion to follow; Kurgan will always follow chaos, high elves will always follow elven gods, the Empire will always follow Salvation, orks will always follow Destruction.
I think we'd like Ind to be able to choose between Chaos and Sprituality, and maybe eventually Dark Elves between chaos and elven gods, but probably not the others.

Is this the idea of civ specialization that you hate? Because its pretty central to the mod vision.

We could include a lot of these sorts of things as names for Great Commanders, absolutely. I don't know if its possible to civ-link those things.

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it should be easy enough.

but like Ahri said, 1 hero per faction AFTER 3.19 and the other bug fixes, and then well probably look at 1 hero per leader (my preffered option) or at least 2 heroes per faction.

as for the unused heros such as Malus and Drycha etc, they can be Great Commander/general/whatever names unique to each civ.

Yeah this would definitely be a candidate for the back burner until we can get 3.19 up and running.

Which reminds me, any news from Ploeper yet guys?

Ploep isnt really interested in modding at all anymore. so no, no word really.

If Gotrek and Felix aren't in, Ill cry.

Please?

i had a huge mental blank, just remind me who Gotrek and Felix are? i think gotrek was some dwarf slayer but i dont recall him being anything special... and whos Felix?

EDIT: nevermind, a brief google search helped me figure out who they are im afraid Gotrek and Felix arent really 'important' enough to warrent being a primary hero of any of the civs. but i did just get an interesting idea for an event chain that only occures if you are empire, or dwarf or fighting skaven or sylvania...

Gotrek Gurnisson is a very successful (or unsuccessful, depending on your point of view) Dwarfen slayer, a Dwarf who has brought shame upon himself and has taken an oath to seek death fighting in honourable combat. Like all slayers, Gotrek had shaved his hair into what usually is a cresent shaped mohawk. He is described as large and heavily muscled, and wears a patch to cover an eye which he lost in battle with Orcs and Goblins. He wields a battleaxe imbued with powerful rune magic, having gained this weapon during his first excursion into the northern Chaos Wastes, where he recovered it from the dead son of King Thangrim Firebeard. Gotrek's axe is as powerful as that wielded by the dwarven High King, Thorgrim Grudgebearer. This weapon was the Runemaster's Axe of the lost dwarven fortress of Karag Dum, and supposedly previously belonged to the dwarven deity Grimnir. The elven mage Teclis once read the magical aura of Gotrek, and determined that immense power is flowing from the axe and slowly changing The Slayer into something greater than an ordinary dwarf - having already been proved in the previous eight books when all the creatures gotrek has killed are considered.

Felix Jaeger is Gotrek's reluctant companion and "Rememberer." After Gotrek saved Felix from being killed in the Window Tax Riots in Altdorf, Felix, in a drunken stupor, promised to record Gotrek's death so that his honor could be maintained. Dwarfs take oaths very seriously, and so Felix was compelled to travel with Gotrek. Felix is a human with a swordman's physique and long blonde hair, who favours a chain shirt and red cloak. Over years of following Gotrek, Felix has become an accomplished swordsman and duelist. His own weapon is the rune sword Karaghul, a blade with a dragon hilt recovered from the fallen hold of Karak Eight Peaks. A relic of the Order of the Fiery Heart templars, it was forged for the purpose of slaying dragons. It grants him a shield from a dragon's fiery breath, as well as providing a powerful confidence when facing such a creature.

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IDEA:

Gotrek and Felix (combined as a single hero unit not 2 individual heroes.) obtainable through 4 different event chains (one if you are dwarf civ, one if you are Empire civ, one if you are fighting Skaven and one if you are fighting Undead. they would be the only hero to have 2 pieces of equipment.)

Starts with Slayer Lord promotion giving access to a plethora of special Slayer promotions (deamon, elf, orc, dragon etc)
Starts with the 'Runemaster's Axe of Karag Dum' Equpment which gives Meteoric Iron Affinity (+1) and Magic resistance 40%
Starts with the 'Rune Sword, Karaghul' Equipment which gives Fire Immunity, Immune to Psychology (or similar) and +35% strength vs Dragons

another cool concept would be thhat id they die with 20% odds or less they spawn 'Gotrek and Felix's Epic Record' which can be sacrificed in a city to build a nationa wonder similar to National Epic. this is probably too much though

Nice ideas PL, I was just thinking about these two. They could provide effect promotions to each other, representing they are better when paired together. BTW, shame you on. Gotrek and Felix have been around since at least advanced heroquest and have a dozen or so books regarding their misadventures. Heh heh

Edit; Though on second thought having them together as one unit does make alot of sense!

ta im full of ideas haha

its not my fault i didnt know gotrek and felix! ive never read any of the warhammer novels, i just play and paint the tabletop game

and yeh, IF we do include gotrek and felix, theyd be better as a single unit than 2.

the key word here is 'IF' we need all the other heroes and things first before we can do event heroes. (i have a at least one more event-based hero planned)

Yay

I could help code the event if you want it's only xml work but less work for you

Mimic, if you can code 4 decent event chains (one if you're empire, one if you're dwarf, one if you're fighting skaven and one if you're fighting undead) that are fitting for gotrek and felix, they're pretty much assured a place in the game at some point But they will still be after the main civ heroes... that is unless you want to code the actual heroes in themselves as well haha

but yeh, any help is more than welcome. just post your code in a notepad file with decent instructions on which files to paste it into and were set

Sounds good, I'll do the unit and equipment too

mimic said:

Sounds good, I'll do the unit and equipment too

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Hey your halfling unit and spells are pretty cool!

Sounds good, I'll do the unit and equipment too

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brilliant!


EDIT: and i must agree your halfling mod looks awsome if you know of any other notable characters of worth from the warhammer novels you're more than welcome to make events about them too. anything to add more depth to the game

EDIT 2: please use the latest version of FF as a base for anything you mod for us though because were rebuilding using FF to get the mod 3.19 compatable.

Psychic_Llamas said:

brilliant!


EDIT: and i must agree your halfling mod looks awsome if you know of any other notable characters of worth from the warhammer novels you're more than welcome to make events about them too. anything to add more depth to the game

EDIT 2: please use the latest version of FF as a base for anything you mod for us though because were rebuilding using FF to get the mod 3.19 compatable.

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Mimic, there are several halfling characters in the warhammer lore that stand out. What I like to call a Thug Halfling (from Orcs the novel), a merchant and I think a chef. I'll start looking for the names