Unofficial Science Challenge - The Deity Poll

This is a poll to see what civs people would like to test on deity level. I will be making another identical save start for each of the following civs: Babylon, Korea, Maya, and Siam (since people really want to test the strength of CSs).

--PLEASE only vote if you will be attempting this deity level challenge. (I will make the votes open so I can see who has voted for each.)
--Top 2 results will be included in this challenge. In the event of ties I will choose the winners myself.
--Only 2 choices may be made and you may only vote once.
--This poll will run for 1 week.
--This poll will be for 2 more civs to be included. The reason I am capping it at 6 total civs is so that I dont flood the attachment system with a bunch of unnecessary saves.
--I will also not create special civ request saves mostly for time limitations and fear that it may eventually turn into everyone wanting to try each civ.
--This poll is just to include a few others for balance reasons--the 3 science-leaning civs and 3 non-science leaning civs.

Since the point of this was to factor out many random elements to be a better test of who is stronger at a science victory, keep these following changes in mind when voting:

-No ruins (because I cant affix what they provide as a constant)
-Only normal barbarians
-If Spain is voted to be one of the 2 Civs there will be no Natural Wonders that you can discover first as the 500g bonus is too powerful to make this an accurate test. But the map will include them for natural discovery for the "typical" game experience.

Everything else will be a constant, the opponents, the City-States and Wonder placement will be in the same spot for each save. All VCs will be enabled but Science is the desired goal. All DLCs will be enabled because I want them to include all the wonders and all the civs as possibilities. There will be no vanilla or vanilla/GnK only versions of this.

I am up for more suggestions regarding settings, but since Korea has a naval UU the start will be close enough to a coast that they can be made use of so as not to neglect an element of their civ. Since I think people prefer Pangea-type maps It will more than likely be a pangea continent.

As a reminder, since these will be identical maps just with different opening civs, prior map knowledge is essential to keep results accurate. Playstyle and strategy DO NOT need to be a constant as each civ should be played to their strengths. Keep these things in mind when voting.

A final note: Since the patch hasn't been released yet we can discuss in comments whether to wait for it or to play it now with the current bugs being available. Since most are familiar with current play tactics and the patch will have a significant effect on game play, a delay after the patch is released might be necessary before doing this.

Thanks, and let the discussion begin!

The following Civs couldnt be listed as the max number of poll listings is 25.

India
Ottomans
Polynesia
Spain
Sweden

If you would like to vote for them, post your votes in here. But they must be included as one of your 2 votes. After voting is closed I will tally names and votes to exclude duplicates or extras.

Regarding Spain - not sure that the best way of dealing with a craps shoot is taking away all the best possible outcomes - The chance of the 500 discovery gold is part of the UA and removing it gives what is still a craps shoot, but now with loaded dice.

If you were trying to simulate an 'average' game you should remove scenarios from both ends of the spectrum - otherwise it's like starting the iroqois on desert, incas on flats or polynesia on highands etc. As it you've got random but which includes the bad starts and removes the good ones. Picking an 'average' game wouldn't do the idea of Spain in civ 5 justice, but would still be better than what is there at the moment imo.

I think its important to include a nuetral science civ. IE a civ that players do not percieve as a strong science civ. My theory is that there wont really be all that much difference in the end.

Maya - early
Babylon - early
Korea - middle
Siam - middle game

After thinking some more, I think we need 2 late game civs for balance.

budweiser said:

I think its important to include a nuetral science civ. IE a civ that players do not percieve as a strong science civ. My theory is that there wont really be all that much difference in the end.

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yes, all of this is included in the description. 3 science-leaning civs and 3 non-science leaning civs.

edit: i like the late game option, but most late game options are UUs, not UBs or UAs. but warmongering science vics would be a very interesting strategy to take.

Regarding Spain, you still get 100g for finding wonders, it's just the bonus 500g for finding them first that is abusive, particularly with El Dorado or Great Barrier Reef. Wonders will be in the game and they will be findable. Maybe Krakatoa could be found first, but not in the first 20-50 turns when it becomes an imbalance to game play. Since it would take long enough to get to crossing ocean tiles Krakatoa could be an option. But Spain still has significant strength in the UA to work wonders for twice the tile amount and their UAs would still be quite powerful (although the Tercio is less so now that Iron-Rifles tech path isn't as much of a priority since GnK came out).

Continents/Pangea : Ethiopia

Water maps : Byzantines...Dromons ftw!(time for a showdown)

Of all listed, I vote for Inca and Egypt. I would normally go for Babylon & Inca, but since Babylon isn't there, Egypt gets my vote. Why?

Inca is by far one of the best Deity civs. Mountain bias, resources, terrace farms (great, as Petra isn't mandatory then) and fast exploration that gives just as much upper hand and Babylon's early scientist.

I found Egypt fun to play with on Deity. With Rammesses you can nab a few more wonders, depending on your opponents - whether they're builders or warmongers. Rammesses really makes the tradition opening shine with a total of 35% faster wonder construction. In a decent starting location, some wonders cost roughly as much as the free building they provide... Wicked.

I voted for China and the Celts. China is a good well rounded CIV which can compete on Deity level. I like the Celts because religion could be a game changer and they can get an early religion even on Deity.

I do not like to play Ramses on Deity. I like to have Ramses as an opponent because if I am going to miss out on building all the wonders, it is nice for them to be in one place for me to liberate for the home team.

I also prefer continents or continents plus maps.

Crafty Bison said:

Regarding Spain - not sure that the best way of dealing with a craps shoot is taking away all the best possible outcomes - The chance of the 500 discovery gold is part of the UA and removing it gives what is still a craps shoot, but now with loaded dice.

If you were trying to simulate an 'average' game you should remove scenarios from both ends of the spectrum - otherwise it's like starting the iroqois on desert, incas on flats or polynesia on highands etc. As it you've got random but which includes the bad starts and removes the good ones. Picking an 'average' game wouldn't do the idea of Spain in civ 5 justice, but would still be better than what is there at the moment imo.

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I agree with this. I would not want to play Spain if they were nerfed in the name of equality. Taking away their greatest (although somewhat random in normal games) asset is akin to starting the game with writing technology so that Babylon will not generate a free GS by researching writing. If you are going to put Spain in the game, there should be some kind of wonder nearby (maybe not in the starting city, but close enough for the 2nd city and a 500 gold bonus when it is found). All of the civs would benefit from the wonder, but Spain would get 2x the benefit and be able to buy a settler to grab it early which is kind of what their UA is all about.

Maybe instead of a poll you should select the civs with this:

Unofficial Science Competition (Deity): Who to include elimination thread

I wrestled with Inca and China, but settled on the Celts and Ethiopia. Playing the Mayans for science has sparked an interest in seeing how a civ with a religious UA/UB can best leverage that into a science focus/lead (beyond merely auto-selecting Messenger of the Gods as their pantheon).

Hmm... Deity on continents can be rather tough, depending on the opponents, as you need to deviate from the best possible tech path to embark on water tiles early on. The early game will be a fight for survival (unless you happen to be neighbors with peaceful civs), and there is bound to be a runaway on one of the other continents, which makes the game kinda tough later on. However, it is going to make for a fine challenge

aztecs are pretty deadly for science, the jungle bias basically guarantees an amazing science capital, other civs can get jungle starts but it's more hit and miss, aztecs it's all but guaranteed and the floating gardens provide some extra food to work all those jungle tiles/grow large populatons. Plus great synergy with the jaguars, available from the first turn, to deal with the inevitable invasions you'll experience on Deity, nixing AI range with jungle tiles you can move freely through and gain a combat bonus in is very useful.

Keep in mind that start bias will not come into play. Hammer Rabbi will create a map and all playable civs will have the same starting location. If you like to play Aztecs because they start near jungle or Incas because they are in the hills/mountains, those start biases will not factor in at all.

Mesix said:

Keep in mind that start bias will not come into play. Hammer Rabbi will create a map and all playable civs will have the same starting location. If you like to play Aztecs because they start near jungle or Incas because they are in the hills/mountains, those start biases will not factor in at all.

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oh yes, i missed that part, thank you, that would greatly derail any aztec science bonus - outside of the extra growth from the floating gardens

First post yay!

Never got to play any difficulty past King, but if I were to I would give Austria a shot. The overpowering UA would come in handy.

I voted for Arabs for their general awesomeness & France for variety. My old favourite, the Incas will get some love anyway.

As for Spain I'd would't deny approximity to any or several wonders - it's part of their UA and therefore essential part of the game. Most likely AI Spain will not become an early runaway due to finding a wonder nor is it an instant 'I win' -button for a human. It surely does help a lot in the beginning but that's kind of the point of their UA.

The Map - not pangaea(+), please but continents(+) in some form for the sake of balance. Pangaea surely makes things easier but some incentive to make a well rounded civ would be welcomed. At his point I should probably bring up my profound dislike of beelines of any sort so neglecting a tech line/military type doesn't sound like a good plan to test civs out.

G

Mesix said:

Keep in mind that start bias will not come into play. Hammer Rabbi will create a map and all playable civs will have the same starting location. If you like to play Aztecs because they start near jungle or Incas because they are in the hills/mountains, those start biases will not factor in at all.

Click to expand...

While this is true I'd prefer that if a civ with UA/UB that heavily relies on map features were present the map would be slightly manipulated with this in mind.
For example the Incas without a possibility to built a single TF would be kind of pointless to have. This could be done either by the original map to have some mountain/hill combos or to have two very slightly different maps where only few tiles near capital were changed.

G

Let's not forget, that this will be a Deity game - it should be designed in a matter to be winnable between T250 and T275 - otherwise the AI would either launch or get diplo victory. Since the AI gets tons of stuff cheated in on Deity, holding on to City States as allies won't be so easy. Not to mention that I once had Austria launch on T241, and in my T230 Babylon victory Gandhi was only 1 part away from launching, and he was constructing it when I did. This means it can even happen around T235.

I welcome the possibility of AI actually winning which wasn't the case on the Emperor challenge. It showed the possibilities of a civ when AI has no real value in the game. On Deity, however, it's more like a survival through ages & building a well-rounded civilization which for me at least is far more interesting and ignoring the AI apart from an unwilling trading partner is not really an option.

G