Changes to existing factions

Ahriman

Tyrant
Joined
Jun 8, 2008
Messages
13,266
Location
Washington, DC
Some rebalancing and additional flavor for some of the fairly well implemented factions.

The Empire.
Spoiler :
No access to Longbowmen. No access to horsearcher warband. No access to Flight tech. No access to Monster Bonding tech.

Implement a shared national limit cap on all mage units and all archmage units, so that you can only have 8/5 across all different Lores (ie so building multiple colleges doesn’t let you have way too many mage units relative to other factions). Otherwise reduce unit limits to 3/2 mages/archmages.

Imperial War Wagon (replaces War chariot). Strength 8/6, can use metal weapons, 2 moves, can carry 1 cargo. 10% cheaper. Otherwise identical to war chariot.

Steam tank. 16 strength, 2 moves. armored unit. Requires steam power tech.

Averland Swordsmen Regiment (replaces Militia swordsmen) Same stats as Militia Swordsmen, but starts with senior captain promotion.
Ostermark Spearmen Regiment (replaces Militia spearmen). Same stats as militia spearman, but starts with senior captain promotion.
Hochman Archer Regiment (replaces Militia archer regiment). Same stats as militia archer, but starts with senior captain promotion.

Normal archer warband, swordsmen warband, spearman warband.

Skirmisher warband
Strength 4. No metal weapons. Can use wartats. 2 moves.
Better results from tribal villages.
+50% vs beasts. +20% withdraw chance. -20% city attack.
Hammer cost: 50.

Ranger warband.
Strength 6. No metal weapons. Can use wartats. 2 moves.
Can see invisible units Can build camp and corral. Better results from tribal villages.
+50% vs beasts. +30% withdraw chance. -10% city attack.
Hammer cost: 140.

Outriders (replaces cavalry). Same stats as cavalry, except starts with sentry 1, and has +10% withdraw chance.

Mastiff Warhounds (replaces troll): strength 6, 2 moves, 20% withdraw chance. 120 hammers. Builds 50% faster with breeding grounds.

Griffon (replaces giant). Strength 9, 1-2 first strikes, 3 moves, flying, requires aerie.

National Wonder: Imperial War college.
Requires: Military tradition, unit of level 5+.
All units built in this city gain the standard-bearer promotion for free.
Cost: 200 hammers, double speed with marble.


Bretonnia.
Spoiler :
No access to Crossbowmen.
No access to War Chariot.
No access to cannons, rifling techs or units. No access to steam power tech, steel tech, flight tech. No access to Lore of Heavens (only 3 lore access; beasts, light, life.) No access to mercenary contracts tech (are assassins and hidden nationality really very chivalric?).

Pegasus riders (replace troll). Strength 5, fighter aircraft. Range 4. Can airstrike (no collateral). Can intercept. Hammer cost 120. Builds 50% faster with aerie.

Albion giant (replaces giant) same as giant.

Knight errant (replces knight) strength 11/7 (regular knight 10/7).
Knights of the Realm strength 12/8., can only be upgraded from level 4 knight errant. National limit 5.
Pegasus knights. Strength 12/8. 1 first strike. Upgrades from knight errant or knight of the realm, requires level 6. 3 moves, flying. Requires monster bonding tech, requires aerie.

Questing Knight. Requires salvation religion, fanaticism tech. Same stats as in old Warhammer mod.
Grail knight. Requires salvation religion, fanaticism tech. Same stats as in old Warhammer mod. upgraded from level 4 questing knight.

Men at Arms (replaces pikemen) Strength 5/6, can use metal weapons, +25% vs shock cavalry units. +15% vs melee.

Bretonni swordsmen. (replace axeman warband) Same as axeman warband, but starts with wartatoos, and can use wartatoos.
Bretonni spearmen. (replace spearman warband) Same as axeman warband, but starts with wartatoos, and can use wartatoos.

Peasant spearman regiment (replaces militia spearman regiment). Same stats as regular militia spearman).
Peasant Swordsman Regiment (replaces Militia swordsman regiment). Same stats.
Peasant Bowman Regiment (replaces Militia archer regiment). Same stats.

Skirmisher warband
Strength 4. No metal weapons. Can use wartats. 2 moves.
Better results from tribal villages.
+50% vs beasts. +20% withdraw chance. -20% city attack.
Hammer cost: 50.

Ranger warband.
Strength 6. No metal weapons. Can use wartats. 2 moves.
Can see invisible units Can build camp and corral. Better results from tribal villages.
+50% vs beasts. +30% withdraw chance. -10% city attack.
Hammer cost: 140.

Yeoman archers (replaces Longbowmen). Same as longbowmen.

Mounted Yeoman (replaces light cavalry). Same stats as light cavalry.



Chaos tribes.
Spoiler :

Norsca

Spoiler :

Warrior
Axeman warband.
Spearman warband.
Norsca berserker (replace Militia Swordsman). Same stats, but +1 attack -1 defense, 10% collateral damage to 2 units.
No access to Militia Spearman.
Chaos warrior (replaces Pikemen) Strength 7/5, can use metal weapons. +25% vs melee, +25% vs shock cavalry. 1 move. Requires corruption of chaos religion.
Royal guard.

Javelin thrower warband (replace Archer warband). As in old version of Warhammer mod: same as archer warband but +1 attack -1 defense.
Axe thrower warband (replace militia archer). Ranged unit. Same as militia archer, but +1 attack -1 defense.
No access to Crossbowmen.
No access to Longbowmen.
No access to Handgunners:

All units have terrain penalties as current.
Ancient cavalry.
Marauder horsemen (replace Lancers). Same stats.
Chaos Knights. (replace knights). Same stats, but requires corruption of chaos religion.

Chariot
Chaos Chariot. (replace warchariot) same stats.

No access to Horsearcher warband.
No access to Cavalry.

Chaos troll (replace troll) same as troll, but starts Mutated (ie when built gets mutation promotion and some random mutations as if mutated)
Chaos Giant (replace giant). Same as giant, but mutated.
Chaos Dragon. Same as red dragon, but unholy strength instead of fire strength

Chaos warhounds (replace Hunter) Strength 4 no metal wepons or wartats, 3 moves, beast unit class, cannot pillage, 15% withdraw chance.
Norsca Ranger troop. Strength 6. No metal weapons. Can use wartats. 2 moves.
Can see hidden animals. Can see invisible units. Can build camp and corral.
-30% city strength. Better results from tribal villages. Can move through impassable terrain. +50% vs animals. +50% vs beasts. +20% tundra strength.

No access to Beastmaster.

Longship (replace Trireme). +1 movement, can carry 2 cargo.


Kurgan
Spoiler :

Warrior
Axeman warband.
Spearman warband.
Chaos Marauder (replace Militia Swordsman). Same stats, but +1 attack -1 defense.
No access to Militia Spearman.
Chaos warrior (replaces Pikemen) Strength 7/5, can use metal weapons. +25% vs melee, +25% vs shock cavalry. 1 move. Requires corruption of chaos religion.
Royal guard.

Javelin thrower warband (replace Archer warband). As in old version: same as archer warband but +1 attack -1 defense.
Axe thrower warband (replace militia archer). Ranged unit. Same as militia archer, but +1 attack -1 defense.
No access to Crossbowmen.
No access to Longbowmen.
No access to Handgunners:

All units have terrain penalties as current.
Ancient cavalry.
Marauder horsemen (replace Lancers). Same stats.
Chaos Knights. (replace knights). Same stats, but requires corruption of chaos religion.

Chariot
Chaos Chariot. (replace warchariot) same stats.

Tribal horsemen warband (replace horsearcher warband). Same as regular horsearcher warband, but no access to quality bows, and only 20% withdraw chance. Numidian cavalry placeholder art; javelin cavalry.
No access to Cavalry.

Chaos troll (replace troll) same as troll, but starts Mutated (ie when built gets mutation promotion and some random mutations as if mutated)
Chaos Giant (replace giant). Same as giant, but mutated.
Chaos Dragon. Same as red dragon, but unholy strength instead of fire strength

Chaos warhounds (replace Hunter) Strength 4 no metal wepons or wartats, 3 moves, beast unit class, cannot pillage, 15% withdraw chance.
Kurgan Ranger troop. Strength 6. No metal weapons. Can use wartats. 2 moves.
Can see hidden animals. Can see invisible units. Can build camp and corral.
-30% city strength. Better results from tribal villages. Can move through impassable terrain. +50% vs animals. +50% vs beasts. +20% tundra strength.
20% withdraw chance.


Hung
Spoiler :

Warrior
Axeman warband.
Spearman warband.
Chaos Marauder (replace Militia Swordsman). Same stats, but +1 attack -1 defense.
No access to Militia Spearman.
Chaos warrior (replaces Pikemen) Strength 7/5, can use metal weapons. +25% vs melee, +25% vs shock cavalry. 1 move. Requires corruption of chaos religion.
Royal guard.

Archer warband
Militia archers.
No access to Crossbowmen.
Longbowmen.
No access to Handgunners:

All units have terrain penalties as current.
Ancient cavalry.
Marauder horsemen (replace Lancers). Same stats.
Chaos Knights. (replace knights). Same stats, but requires corruption of chaos religion.

Chariot
Chaos Chariot. (replace warchariot) same stats.

Keshik warband (replace Horsearcher warband). Same as horsearcher warband, but does +10% collateral damage to 2 units.
No access to Cavalry.

Chaos troll (replace troll) same as troll, but starts Mutated (ie when built gets mutation promotion and some random mutations as if mutated)
Chaos Giant (replace giant). Same as giant, but mutated.
Chaos Dragon. Same as red dragon, but unholy strength instead of fire strength

Chaos warhounds (replace Hunter) Strength 4 no metal wepons or wartats, 3 moves, beast unit class, cannot pillage, 15% withdraw chance.
Hung Ranger troop. Strength 6. No metal weapons. Can use wartats. 2 moves.
Can see hidden animals. Can see invisible units. Can build camp and corral.
-30% city strength. Better results from tribal villages. Can move through impassable terrain. +50% vs animals. +50% vs beasts. +20% plains strength.


So the differences are:
Norsca. Better trireme, better militia swordsmen, use javelins and axe-throwers instead of archers, no horsearchers.
Kurgan. Better ranger, access to (inferior) horsesearcher, use javelins and axe-throwers instead of archers.
Hung. Access to normal archers, access to longbowmen, superior horsearcher.


Wood elf.
Spoiler :

I don't really know enough about Wood Elves to make sensible suggestions.
I would suggest: make them the ultimate forest terrain specialists, but otherwise weak outside it. Weak vs cavalry; they rely on the forest defensive bonus and cavalry penalty in forests to deter it.
And give them some good offensive archer units rather than just defenders.

Wood elf promotion (Asrai):
gives double moves in forests and +10% forest strength, +20% ancient forest strength..
Remove the Spites resource; make the Oak of Ages just function like Ygdssdrarasil from FFH (happy and health bonus). Have ancient forests spawn from the Silvan Ways tech without needing the spites resource.
This makes them have elven mobility and fantastic strength while inside forests, but not outside it.

Asrai citizens building (present in every city)
gives -10% military production, -10% food.

Start with:
Cannot learn: steel, rifling, steampower, flight techs.

Wo

Units:
Warrior
Archer warband
Swordsmen warband
Spearman warband
Militia swordsmen
Militia bowmen
Militia spearmen
Ancient cavalry.
No chariot, war chariot.

Glade Guard (replaces Longbowmen). Strength 7, 1 move, 2-3 first strikes, can use quality bows, meteoric iron. +15% vs archery units, +15% vs missile cavalry units. Can bombard units as standard longbowmen. Doesn't get city/hill defense bonuses of standard longbowmen.


Bolt-thrower. (standard bolt-thower). But no catapult.

Asrai Scout troop (replaces hunter)
Strength 4. No metal weapons. Can use wartats. 2 moves.
Can see hidden animals. Can build camp and corral.
-30% city strength. Better results from tribal villages. +50% vs animals.
+50% vs beasts. +20% forest strength, +20% ancient forest strength.
Hammer cost: 50.

Waywatcher troop (replaces Ranger).
Strength 6. No metal weapons. Can use wartats. 2 moves.
Can see hidden animals. Can see invisible units Can build camp and corral.
-30% city strength. Better results from tribal villages.
Can move through impassable terrain. +50% vs animals.
+50% vs beasts. +20% forest strength, ancient forest strength.
Hammer cost: 140.

Glade riders. (replaces lancer). Standard light cavalry, but without the forest and ancient forest attack/defence penalties, but only 2 movement.

War dancer. (replaces Pikeman).
strength 7, no metal weapons, can use wartats, starts with wartats.
Starts with Dances of Loec promotion, which gives 20% withdraw chance, 1-2 first strikes.

Wild riders. (National UU, limit 5). Requires Tournaments tech. Requires Advanced Smithing tech. Requires horses. Strength 8/6, can use metal weapons. 2 moves. 10% withdraw chance. Gets knight terrain attack/defence penalties except for forests/ancient forest. A weak knight unit.

Eagle riders. Upgrades from level 4 wild riders. Requires monster bonding tech. Strength 10/8, can use metal weapons, flying, 3 moves.

Great eagle (replaces troll). Strength 5, fighter aircraft. Range 4. Can airstrike (no collateral). Can intercept. Hammer cost 120. Builds 50% faster with aerie.

Dryad (second troll slot unit):
Dryad: Strength 6/5, 2 moves, 1 first strike, forest spirit.
Unicorn. strength 10, 2 moves, beast unit, starts with magic resistance promotion.
Treekin (second giant slot): Strength 9, can bombard city defenses 8%, +20% heal rate in forest, -25% fire vulnerability, forest spirit
Treeman: Strength 14/20, 1 move, starts with lore of athel loren 1, forest spirit.
Green dragon. As red dragon, but -2 strength, poison immunity instead of fire immunity and poison damage instead of fire damage.

Forest spirit promotion gives: +20% forest strength, +30% ancient forest strength, -25% fire vulnerability, double moves in forests, double moves in ancient forests, invisible in ancient forests.

Mage units as in old version; level 1 mage at nature lore, level 2 at education, level 3 at arcane lore.



Greenskins
Spoiler :


Theme:
Melee strength orks.
Weak numerous goblin archers/spearmen.
High offense, poor defense.
Animosity.
Strong early-mid game, weak late-game.

Cannot learn:
Cannons tech.
Rifling tech.
Engineering tech.
Advanced Engineering Tech.
Steampower tech.
Flight Tech.
Steel tech.
Economics tech.
Banking tech.
Raw magic tech.
Word of salvation tech (Defensive pacts? Alliance? What defensive pacts?).
Royal guard (black orcs are pikeman UU instead).

Create UB:
Greenskin population.
Automatically present in all cities (like Elven population).
Provides +20% military production, -15% research, +5% food, -50% war weariness.
Greenskins will have more, weaker units of lower tech, and they will keep the science slider high and pay for their unit upkeep with pillaging.

I strongly suggest implementing something like the Fall Further Raiders leader trait or promotion, as otherwise the AI won't pillage enough to keep up in tech and provide a decent challenge.
Another suggestion: give +10 beakers towards whatever tech is being researched for each population point butchered when captured cities end their revolt and are reduced down to population 1.


Orcs/goblins:
Goblins:
Spoiler :
Tier 0 melee: Goblin warriors. Standard warrior unit.
Tier 1 axe: Forestgoblin Warband. Same as generic axeman warband, except -10% strength, +20% forest strength, +20% ancient forest strength.
Tier 1 spear Forestgoblin Spearmen Mob. Same as generic spearman warband, but -1 attack strength, +10% forest strength, -15% build cost, available at hunting tech (much, much earlier).
Tier 2 axe: Goblin Warband. Same as generic militia swordsmen.
Tier 2 spear: Goblin spearman warband. Same as generic militia spearmen, except -1 attack strength, -15% build cost.
Tier 3 melee: Nightgoblin warband. Strength 4/5+1 poison, can use metal weapons, +25% vs melee, +25% vs shock cavalry.
Tier 2 chariot: Wolf chariot. Same as standard chariot.
Tier 3 chariot: Snotling Pump wagon. Strength 12/8. Cannot use metal weapons. 1 move. +25% vs melee units. Standard chariot terrain penalties. -20% cost.
Tier 1 mounted: Spider-riders. Strength 4+1 poison, 2 moves, ignores terrain defense bonuses, ignores terrain movement penalties, doesnt get normal mounted unit terrain penalties, doesn't get no defensive bonuses, no metal weapons, -10% cost.
Tier 2 mounted: Nightgoblin Wolfriders. Standard light cavalry.
Tier 3 mounted: Nightgoblin Squig Hoppers. Same as knight, except -2 strength, ignores terrain defenses, ignores terrain movement penalties, +20% vs melee units.
Tier 1 recon: Nightgoblin skirmishers. As above.
Tier 2 recon: Nightgoblin Squig Herders. ?
Tier 1 monster: Snotling Swarm. Strength 4, no metal weapons, no wartats. 80% withdraw chance.
Tier 1 monster: troll. As current.
Tier 2 monster: giant. As current.
Tier 3 monster: wyvern. Reduce to 12+4 poison strength. Reduce cost to 230 hammers. Increase national limit to 3.
Tier 2 mage: Orc shaman. As above.
Tier 3 mage: Goblin shaman. as above.
Tier 2 religious unit: Nightgoblin Netters. Strength 5, no metal, 1 move. Can cast an entangle spell, removes movement from enemy units, high resistance chance.
Tier 3 religious unit: Nightgoblin fanatics. Strength 10/4, very cheap, dies at the end of combat.
Tier 1 Archer: Goblin Arrer Boyz. As standard archer warband, but -30% cost.
Tier 2 Archer: Nightgoblin Arrer Boyz. Standard militia bowmen, but +1 first strike chance.
Tier 3 Archer: Nightgoblin Blowguns. Replaces Crossbowmen. Same as crossbowmen, but -1 strength, +1 poison strength, forest and jungle defense bonus instead of city and hills defense bonus, -15% cost.

Tier 1 Siege: Spear Chukka. Same as catapult, but less city bombardment, more unit bombardment.
Tier 2 Siege: Rock Lobba. Same as bolt-thrower, but more city bombardment, less unit bombardment.
Tier 2 Siege: Goblin Doom Divers Strength 3/1. Can barrage adjacent units with a 30% max damage cap.


Orcs
Spoiler :
Tier 0 melee: Orc warriors. Standard warriors.
Tier 1 axe: Orc Boyz regiment. Same as axeman warband, but +10% city attack.
Tier 1 spear Orc Spearboyz regiment. Same as spearman warband, but +10% vs melee units.
Tier 2 axe: Savage Orc Boyz. Same as militia swordsmen, but +10% city attack.
Tier 2 spear: Savage Orc Spearboyz. Same as militia spearmen, but +10% vs melee units.
Tier 3 melee: Black Orcs. Strength 6, 1 move, can use metal weapons, +25% vs melee units, +25% city attack.
Tier 2 chariot: Orc Boar chariot. Standard chariot.
Tier 3 chariot: Black Orc Boar chariot. Standard war chariot.
Tier 1 mounted: Orc Boarboyz. Standard ancient cavalry.
Tier 2 mounted: Savage Orc Boarboyz. Standard light cavalry.
Tier 3 mounted: Black Orc Boarboyz. Standard knight, but -1 strength.
Tier 1 recon: Orc skirmishers. Standard skirmishers, but 5% less withdraw chance.
Tier 2 recon: Sneaky Gitz? Standard ranger skirmishers.
Tier 1 monster: Snotling Swarm. As for goblins
Tier 1 monster: troll. As current.
Tier 2 monster: giant. As current.
Tier 3 monster: wyvern. as for goblins.
Tier 2 mage: Orc shaman. As above.
Tier 3 mage: Goblin shaman. As above.
Tier 2 religious unit: Ruglud's Armoured Orcs?. Strength 5, starts with iron weapons promotion, +10% vs missile units.
Tier 3 religious unit: Nightgoblin fanatics. ?
Tier 1 Archer: Orc Arrer Boyz. Standard archer warband
Tier 2 Archer: Savage Orc Arrer Boyz. Standard miltia bowmen.
Tier 3 Archer: Black Orc Arrer Boyz. Longbowmen replacement. 5 strength, can use metal weapons, 1 first strike, +20% city defense, +20% hills defense.

Tier 1 Siege: Spear Chukka. See goblins.
Tier 2 Siege: Rock Lobba. See goblins.


Orc Shaman (UU, limit 6) Requires WAAGH! tech. Requires Warfare tech. Strength 4. 1 move. Arcane unit. Starts with Little WAAAGH! 1, 2, and 3 promotions.
Goblin Shaman. (UU limit 4). Requires Archane Mastery tech, requires Military tradition tech. Strength 5. Channeling 3. Starts with Big WAAGH! 1, 2 and 3 promotions.
Buildable (doesn't need to be upgraded).
 
How does animosity work exactly in-game? From what I can tell, it has a random chance of turning your units barbarian, but beyond that I dont know.
 
I don't know the precise details, but Greenskin units (standard spearmen, archers, swordsmen/axemen) have some % chance per turn of turning barbarian or attacking each other when placed in a stack with other animosity units.

I personally find the mechanic frustrating as it currently stands; its all downside with no upside.

I think the mechanic should be reworked, so that it happens a little more often, but that it gives Xp to the units, and half the time doesn't actually kill a unit. So, when one unit attacks another, give the attacker a 100% withdraw chance (so that if the attacker is the loser, both units survive; if the attacker is the winner, the defener dies) and give +2xp to both attacker and defender, in addition to whatever units they gain from combat.

This way, orcs without discipline will be fighting each other constantly will be and ineffective at following orders or attacking the enemy, but will gain xp passively within your own borders so will be stronger when it comes time to go on the warpath.

I'd also remove the chance for units going barb, or have Discipline should grant an ability that automatically takes control of any barbarian greenskins in adjacent tiles.


Another possibility is to just make the Animosity promotion function like the (proposed) Stupidity promotion. Make units with animosity have a 5% chance per turn of going AWOL and being unable to move for 1-4 turns, and gain +1xp.
 
I prefer the AWOL option. The duration and chance of going AWOL could be influenced by promotions, spell casters (correct me if I am wrong, but greenskin spellcaster get their powers through Gork and Mork, not through any lores. Greenskins would be more likely to take orders from someone who can channel the power of Gork and Mork) , and other variables.
 
Empire should have fanatics, as the ones you gave to Estalia. It would really fit the lore to give them some, as the Empire is full of fanatics rady to give their lives to Sigmar. But, as they have one of the best army list for the moment, maybe we should take something back in exchange, like lowering the overall usefulness and strength of their Great Sword unit, who, lorewise, are just beefed up basic infantry.
 
Lorewise the Kurgan and Norse shouldn't get archer units. They cannot use them in Battle even though they apparently hunt for food. The Hung should be able to get foot archers as well as their horse archers.

Missile cavalry for the Kurgan could be like Jinetes, javelin throwing light cavalry who can also fight *okay* in hand to hand (better than horse archers). Norsemen in RL disliked cavalry during their viking days because they were seen as too expensive (bitter grapes anyone?) to maintain. While I can see these guys using light cavalry I don't think Norsca should have access to missile mounted units. Maybe a flavor mechanic like giving them throwing axes or something could compensate.
 
Yeah, the stuff here was barely a skeleton of an idea for faction differentiation within Kurgan/Norsca/Hung. I haven't worked on this in a long time.
How about this:

Norsca

Spoiler :

Warrior
Axeman warband.
Spearman warband.
Norsca berserker (replace Militia Swordsman). Same stats, but +1 attack -1 defense, 10% collateral damage to 2 units.
No access to Militia Spearman.
Chaos warrior (replaces Pikemen) Strength 7/5, can use metal weapons. +25% vs melee, +25% city attack. 1 move. Requires corruption of chaos religion.
Royal guard.

Javelin thrower warband (replace Archer warband). As in old version of Warhammer mod: same as archer warband but +1 attack -1 defense.
Axe thrower warband (replace militia archer). Ranged unit. Same as militia archer, but +1 attack -1 defense.
No access to Crossbowmen.
No access to Longbowmen.
No access to Handgunners:

All units have terrain penalties as current.
Ancient cavalry.
Marauder horsemen (replace Lancers). Same stats.
Chaos Knights. (replace knights). Same stats, but requires corruption of chaos religion.

Chariot
Chaos Chariot. (replace warchariot) same stats.

No access to Horsearcher warband.
No access to Cavalry.

Chaos troll (replace troll) same as troll, but starts Mutated (ie when built gets mutation promotion and some random mutations as if mutated)
Chaos Giant (replace giant). Same as giant, but mutated.
Chaos Dragon. Same as red dragon, but unholy strength instead of fire strength

Chaos warhounds (replace Hunter) Strength 4 no metal wepons or wartats, 3 moves, beast unit class, cannot pillage, 15% withdraw chance.
Norsca Ranger troop. Strength 6. No metal weapons. Can use wartats. 2 moves.
Can see hidden animals. Can see invisible units. Can build camp and corral.
-30% city strength. Better results from tribal villages. Can move through impassable terrain. +50% vs animals. +50% vs beasts. +20% tundra strength.

No access to Beastmaster.

Longship (replace Trireme). +1 movement, can carry 2 cargo.


Kurgan
Spoiler :

Warrior
Axeman warband.
Spearman warband.
Chaos Marauder (replace Militia Swordsman). Same stats, but +1 attack -1 defense.
No access to Militia Spearman.
Chaos warrior (replaces Pikemen) Strength 7/5, can use metal weapons. +25% vs melee, +25% city attack. 1 move. Requires corruption of chaos religion.
Royal guard.

Javelin thrower warband (replace Archer warband). As in old version: same as archer warband but +1 attack -1 defense.
Axe thrower warband (replace militia archer). Ranged unit. Same as militia archer, but +1 attack -1 defense.
No access to Crossbowmen.
No access to Longbowmen.
No access to Handgunners:

All units have terrain penalties as current.
Ancient cavalry.
Marauder horsemen (replace Lancers). Same stats.
Chaos Knights. (replace knights). Same stats, but requires corruption of chaos religion.

Chariot
Chaos Chariot. (replace warchariot) same stats.

Mounted javelineer warband (replace horsearcher warband). Same as regular horsearcher warband, but no access to quality bows, and only 20% withdraw chance.
No access to Cavalry.

Chaos troll (replace troll) same as troll, but starts Mutated (ie when built gets mutation promotion and some random mutations as if mutated)
Chaos Giant (replace giant). Same as giant, but mutated.
Chaos Dragon. Same as red dragon, but unholy strength instead of fire strength

Chaos warhounds (replace Hunter) Strength 4 no metal wepons or wartats, 3 moves, beast unit class, cannot pillage, 15% withdraw chance.
Kurgan Ranger troop. Strength 6. No metal weapons. Can use wartats. 2 moves.
Can see hidden animals. Can see invisible units. Can build camp and corral.
-30% city strength. Better results from tribal villages. Can move through impassable terrain. +50% vs animals. +50% vs beasts. +20% tundra strength.
20% withdraw chance.


Hung
Spoiler :

Warrior
Axeman warband.
Spearman warband.
Chaos Marauder (replace Militia Swordsman). Same stats, but +1 attack -1 defense.
No access to Militia Spearman.
Chaos warrior (replaces Pikemen) Strength 7/5, can use metal weapons. +25% vs melee, +25% city attack. 1 move. Requires corruption of chaos religion.
Royal guard.

Archer warband
Militia archers.
No access to Crossbowmen.
Longbowmen.
No access to Handgunners:

All units have terrain penalties as current.
Ancient cavalry.
Marauder horsemen (replace Lancers). Same stats.
Chaos Knights. (replace knights). Same stats, but requires corruption of chaos religion.

Chariot
Chaos Chariot. (replace warchariot) same stats.

Keshik warband (replace Horsearcher warband). Same as horsearcher warband, but does +10% collateral damage to 2 units.
No access to Cavalry.

Chaos troll (replace troll) same as troll, but starts Mutated (ie when built gets mutation promotion and some random mutations as if mutated)
Chaos Giant (replace giant). Same as giant, but mutated.
Chaos Dragon. Same as red dragon, but unholy strength instead of fire strength

Chaos warhounds (replace Hunter) Strength 4 no metal wepons or wartats, 3 moves, beast unit class, cannot pillage, 15% withdraw chance.
Hung Ranger troop. Strength 6. No metal weapons. Can use wartats. 2 moves.
Can see hidden animals. Can see invisible units. Can build camp and corral.
-30% city strength. Better results from tribal villages. Can move through impassable terrain. +50% vs animals. +50% vs beasts. +20% plains strength.


So the differences are:
Norsca. Better trireme, better militia swordsmen, use javelins and axe-throwers instead of archers, no horsearchers.
Kurgan. Better ranger, access to (inferior) horsesearcher, use javelins and axe-throwers instead of archers.
Hung. Access to normal archers, access to longbowmen, superior horsearcher.
 
I like it. The three factions should play fairly uniquely, yet not require excessive amounts of recoding/listbloat.

Each of the Chaos factions can get +1 food from Chaos Waste terrain, as this will eventually occur with Events / Winds of Chaos spread and they're among the few capable of eking out a living in the Wastes.

Trying to come up with a shorter name for Mounted Javelineer Warband..
Tribal Horsemen? Javelin Horsemen? nah still not right.

How about a Royal Guard replacement for the Chaos factions in general, perhaps:
Champions of Chaos: as Royal Guard, +25% vs Melee.
 
Tribal horsemen works fine.

Norsca and Kurgan probably also need +1 food from tundra.

Royal guard already gets +25% melee. I don't think Chaos are particularly about super-elite infantry (are they?) so I don't see that they need even more improved royal guard.
I'd be happy to just change it into a vanilla version with a different name though.
 
Their heavy infantry are pretty buff, but two boni vs Melee is too much. Maybe:
Champions of Chaos: as Royal Guard, starts with Mutation.


As Humakty's earlier post, in tabletop WH the Empire can also occasionally have Flagellants, weak but fanatical peasant cannon fodder driven by apocalyptic preachings, who fling themselves against the enemy armed with farm implements etc. Perhaps:

Flagellants
Attack 4 Defense 1, no metal weapons, immune to psychology. No unit support cost, no war weariness, no garrison bonus, uses ultra-aggressive AI script. Could have a 7-turn Duration extendable by combat, as these units don't hang around for long.

Fanatic rabbles like these would not built with hammers like standard military forces, but instead arise from an occasional Event with the Fanaticism tech and Salvation religion, triggerable when at war with an enemy of different state religion (option of 1-2 free units in exchange for a city pop point).
 
My thought was that Flagellants or fanatics would probably be a Salvation religion UU, available at the fanaticism tech (ie late game), but very cheap low strength.

So, strength 5, no metal weapons, maybe 40 hammers, national limit 10 (to stop the AI spamming them if nothing else), no war weariness from death, immune to psychology.

I could see them auto-spawnable when a Salvation state-religion civ is at war with a non-salvation state-religion civ, but they probably fit Estalia as well at least as well as the Empire. It would be more efficient to have the same religion work for both.

Our current Salvation unit design:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=290986&page=3
Post 45

We could easily add flagellants or fanatics to this.

I think now that I would also change witch-hunter into an anti-mage/disciple assassin, like the inquisitor hero we came up with. Maybe:
Strength 3+2 holy, +40% vs disciple, +40% vs adept, marksman.
 
Another though: do Brettonian ancient cav or lancers need a boost (other than the +1 move they get from the horselord trait)? Its a long way to go to knights, and the decent Brettonian stuff all seems to be pretty late-game.

Also, shall we change "ancient cavalry" to "light cavalry"?
Ancient just seems a bit weird.
 
Hmm.. the early Bretonnian horsemen (really just various Gallic tribal nobles) really aren't that remarkable until they get to their genuine feudal Knights, especially considering they already do have Horselord as you say. But maybe they should get some other early game benefit to help out before Stirrups. The pre-Bretonnian Gallic tribes were definitely way into woad and warpaint; how about letting their Swordsmen and Spearman use both metal weapons and Wartatoos?

Ancient Cavalry doesn't sound too terrible, but maybe a bit odd as Cavalry does have more of an organized/modern/advanced connotation than groups of early mounted warriors.

Maybe we could rename the base unit to something like:
Tribal Horsemen
Horsemen Warband

Light cavalry would also be ok.
 
Just getting access to wartats is pretty minor, and probably not even worth making a UU.

How about if the swordsmen/spearmen *start* with the wartats promotion? That definitely feels very ancient world gallic/briton.

There are possibly several units where we could use this; anything where the wartats really are pretty key, they could start with the promotion, so they get it even without dyes. If they have bronze, it immediately gets overriden, but they still get the boost even without it.

As for a name: just Breton Swordsman/Spearman Warband?

How about Mounted Warband instead of ancient cavalry?
If we're going to use Tribal horsemen for the Kurgan javelin horsearcher. Though that could also be called Kurgan tribal cavalry.

*edit*
Any thoughts on post 15?
 
I like the variations between the Chaos civs Ahriman, good stuff. As far as Chaos being melee experts, that is really just a hold over from back in the day when they were even cheesier than they are now (yes they were much worse).

Salvation flagellants sounds good to me. If you are using a unit limit, why not also make them maintenance free units?
 
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