The War Room

After looking at the leaders we are up against, there is one in particular that has me quite worried.

Notice how the Amazons are the only ones (besides us) that did not take a financial leader. Also note, how they selected not one, but two military traits. Furthermore, note how they also chose a leader with a very dangerous UU that comes very early. A UU that even has a movement of 2.

I think it’s safe to guesstimate we know what they are most likely intending to do. And I do hope we don’t find ourselves next to them, or we can have quite a big problem on our hands.

I think we should plan a bit for this possibility now, instead of waiting until the last minute for the bad news.

obsolete said:

After looking at the leaders we are up against, there is one in particular that has me quite worried.

Notice how the Amazons are the only ones (besides us) that did not take a financial leader. Also note, how they selected not one, but two military traits. Furthermore, note how they also chose a leader with a very dangerous UU that comes very early. A UU that even has a movement of 2.

I think it’s safe to guesstimate we know what they are most likely intending to do. And I do hope we don’t find ourselves next to them, or we can have quite a big problem on our hands.

I think we should plan a bit for this possibility now, instead of waiting until the last minute for the bad news.

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If we see them nearby, should we consider researching Hunting so we can build spears?

I would think that should go without question. There is also a lot of extra emphasis now on where we may find some badly needed copper. If we have none, we'd also have to burn off beakers on archery too (yuk).

Whenever we meet them, I think our diplo priorities are to let them know that since we are the only two teams without financial, are are in fact on the SAME TEAM. And if they wish to pillage someone else's cottages, we'd be willing to give them extra resources and techs all free of charge, so they need not worry of falling behind. And I truely believe we should honour that too.

If they want to war with someone, it's best to be not against them. I am all to happy to see everyone else's cottages go up in flames.

obsolete said:

I would think that should go without question. There is also a lot of extra emphasis now on where we may find some badly needed copper. If we have none, we'd also have to burn off beakers on archery too (yuk).

Whenever we meet them, I think our diplo priorities are to let them know that since we are the only two teams without financial, are are in fact on the SAME TEAM. And if they wish to pillage someone else's cottages, we'd be willing to give them extra resources and techs all free of charge, so they need not worry of falling behind. And I truely believe we should honour that too.

If they want to war with someone, it's best to be not against them. I am all to happy to see everyone else's cottages go up in flames.

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I'm in agreement there -- definitely pay them off -- at least until Immortals are obsolete (no offense )

EDIT: nevermind

Just for reference...

AMAZON

CDZ

MERLOT

QUATRONIA

SIRIUS

We should think up what the most likely paths/strategies these teams are going to take early game and work on a counter so we have something planned once we learn who our close neighbours are etc.

making contact with our neighbors as early as possible definitely will be important. As Javidbing said if would be a good idea for us to plan for the possible scenarios, especially ending up next to cyrus and willem (culture wars early on with creative leaders can be just as fun as immortals).

To the point Obsolete made is if we and Amazon are the only non financial civs and if that is direction in which our diplomacy should go, don't you think that we might face a block of 4 nations against our two?

ahmedhadzi said:

To the point Obsolete made is if we and Amazon are the only non financial civs and if that is direction in which our diplomacy should go, don't you think that we might face a block of 4 nations against our two?

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I'd say probably not. Just because the others are all financial doesn't mean they won't quarrel amongst themselves.

[off topic] on a side note, Civ really needs a way for you to perform espionage missions in order to frame another civ...i.e. make civ A angry at civ B for performing this espionage business when it really was you. Then civ B would get mad at civ A for false accusations, etc. etc. (I thought of this because while typing the relevant sentence my mind started thinking about instigating quarrels).[/off topic]

Cut and pasted from the other thread, these are my thoughts on the other teams (in a nutshell):

So no other Spiritual civs at all, 4 Financial civs, and no other philosophical civs.

Cyrus is the most interesting choice, as obsolete has said in the war room thread - definitely the most warlike of the other civs. Two warring traits (both IMP and CHA are kind of half and half, but tend towards war) and Immortals (one of the most dangerous UUs in MP, simply because it's a two-mover) make this faction by far the most dangerous.

The good thing about a chariot/horse archer rush is that it's easy to stop if we know when and where it's coming. All you need is half a dozen spears, and you can pretty much trade 1:1 with the attacker's units. With shorter lines of supply and home-field advantage, that usually adds up to victory.

Willem is a fairly typical leader - just an economic powerhouse really, with two massive traits.

Ragnar's a bit more dangerous, but I have a feeling he's been chosen more for his traits than his UU. Aggressive is a bit weak in MP, as the only units that benefit are one-movers.

Pacal will be quite dangerous simply because of the speed with which he can get Holkans out. The fact that they're resourceless means they can be pumped immediately upon discovery of BW. The good news? They're absolutely pwned by axes.

Hannibal's another 'stock' strong economic leader with a 2-move UU. These are a bit more dangerous than Immortals, but come slightly later.

Chimera1804 said:

I'd say probably not. Just because the others are all financial doesn't mean they won't quarrel amongst themselves.

[off topic] on a side note, Civ really needs a way for you to perform espionage missions in order to frame another civ...i.e. make civ A angry at civ B for performing this espionage business when it really was you. Then civ B would get mad at civ A for false accusations, etc. etc. (I thought of this because while typing the relevant sentence my mind started thinking about instigating quarrels).[/off topic]

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Problem is, that if each mission costs espionage points, and those espionage points are visible, then you don't need to do very much C&D work to work out who the real instigator is.

v8_mark said:

Problem is, that if each mission costs espionage points, and those espionage points are visible, then you don't need to do very much C&D work to work out who the real instigator is.

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thats one thing i never understood about espionage... ...its meant to be a HIDDEN thing, so why the hell you do you see the spy-points others invested in you

Unique Unit: Immortal (Chariot w/ +50% against archers)

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There is actually one piece of good news in there that you forgot BluePants. The immortal has a base strength of 4, while chariots have 5.

If we have no copper, we have to decide about an Iron Gamble, or going archery. Archers also suck here, not just because being on defensive sucks, but immortals get that 50% vs them.

Even if we find a good piece of Copper somewhere, it has to be secured. But I'm pretty sure once they see even one single spear, they will pretty much abort most invasion plans. In fact, we may be able to BLUFF it as well.

I'm wondering how many here have experience with members on AMAZON? Are they the type that are willing to go down in flames just to have some PUNCHING fun? I did get that idea from their PUBLIC discussion. Their team seemed to be more interested in female warriors than anything else.

obsolete said:

There is actually one piece of good news in there that you forgot BluePants. The immortal has a base strength of 4, while chariots have 5.

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Er what? Have you been playing as Egypt lately?

Yes, I am quite familiar with WAR CHARIOTS. Does it show?

I am sorry, but that was the ONLY good news I had to say about immortals.

Thanks obsolete for starting this thread, I think it's important for people to highlight the biggest threats that they see in this game. Obviously, at the moment an immortal rush is the biggest threat.

What Obsolete has touched on is something which I think is paramount, getting "war insurance" of some sort, i.e putting into place strategies that make our team less likely to be a target. This would involve things like researching feudalism/guilds quickly, building fewer cottages and shinies etc... The best strategy however to keep the peace (which will probably be our main aim early on as many others have early UU's, pacal, hannibal and of course Cyrus) is obviously diplomacy. We really need to focus on diplomatic emphasis to secure our backsides because there is quite a high chance that we will be the targets if we're close enough.

I believe that we are prime target for a few main reasons:
1) Even though as obsolete pointed out we will have fewer cottages to pillage, I think that having the mids and a founded religion will outweigh that in terms of being a target.

2) They will see that we are going for reli's/wonders and thus may be skimping on defense early on. Also, comparatively we are a better target by way of traits/UUs compared to Pacal and Ragnar, even willem's cre and Hanni's Cha are minor deterrents.

3) They will be desperate to actually put their UU to use. If you have chosen Persia and specifically Cyrus it probably means that you are banking on getting some Immortal action happening. I would think that the map creator has realised this and put horses within reach as well as another neighbour (who isn't pacal) not too close but just close enough to hit with the rush. If we are that neighbour then we will probably have copper close enough and will need to get that quicksmart.

TBH, Immortals themselves aren't nearly as powerful against us as they are against AI. Basically, if we have copper (I'll go on the assumption that we can procure it as fast as they do horses, and that our fast workers make up for their cheap first settler), it's no different than a regular chariot rush. We wouldn't have gone for Archery anyway, IMO.

Whether their plan includes early pestering with Immortals is a separate issue. Probably... I wouldn't worry about it so much. Doubt Dave put them in a position to really hurt us too early, and all we'll need should we see them next door is Hunting, which is probably 2-3t with gems or two.

Pacal team: They start without any food techs, so it's fair to assume they won't go religion first. Personally, I almost prefer they did, since we could just see which they teched by the time we finish Agriculture.

I'd be surprised if we didn't have a source of copper nearby - but I also won't be surprised if it's in a hard-to-secure location early.

Someone mentioned before that if we allied with Amazom, we'd be facing 2 v 4 - and that's highly unlikely considering how difficult it is to get even 2 teams allied together, let alone 4. If we DO get put next to Amazon, then we should probably do our best to give them "incentives" to ally with us.

This starts with a Non-Aggression Pact and cordial greetings/messages to eah other (well, in my opinion).

That 2 v 4 scenario is my fear, because of the following presumption. Let's say we do team up with Amazon, since they are the only team which have chose unusual leader. And if we start working with them on those cottage pillages in order to get some cash back home. I think we as might as see all teams against us, since they would all protecting their strength (financial trait). Now of course a lot will depend on geography which is to be seen when the game start.