WWII Pacific side -- What happened to history?

Since the other WWII topic is pretty much completely about the European theater, this is about something that really bugs about the Pacific side. I haven't gotten to playing it much yet so I haven't found much else, but the problem I have right now is about China.

First of all, the leader of China's name is "Chairman Zedong." Zedong being Mao's given name, or "first name" (In Chinese, the family name is always written first) that's like calling Washington "President George." However, this shouldn't even be an issue in the first place, if it weren't for the second problem

My biggest gripe is what China is. In this game, it's the People's Republic of China, with the PRC communist flag, and Mao Zedong as its leader. Sure, complain about Hitler being in the game, or Nazi flags bearing the Weimar flag. However, this is much worse, historically. During World War II, country was the Republic of China, led by Chiang Kai-shek of the Kuomintang (and if you look up the Big Four, you'll see Chiang, not Mao with Roosevelt, Churchill, and Stalin). It wasn't until after Japan's surrender that the KMT and Communists finished up their civil war, the communists took control of the mainland, and Chiang escaped to Taiwan.

This shouldn't even be a sensitive issue either, like Hitler being leader. Even the PRC recognizes the Republic of China as the predecessor and government in control during that era in history. So then why isn't the flag the white sun, blue sky flag of the RoC, and their leader "Generalissimo Chiang" instead of "Chairman Zedong"?

Being from Taiwan, I have to say this is a pretty stupid error/choice. It's not hard to put in the right flag, nor is it to simply have no leaderhead with Chiang's name as the leader.

*sigh*

I'm thinking Fixaris didn't want to offend the huge market of China, so they had to do this.

It's a game, just enjoy it.

Mao was still around, and controlled a few provinces in northern China. I consider it a reasonable abstraction to make instead of using a static leaderhead or generic flag or something. Actually creating a thread to complain about this is just plain dumb.

The KMT was the strongest faction in China, but they hardly 'controlled' it. China was a mass of the communists, the KMT, warlords, etc.

Clearly, Chiang is the best choice, but it may have been easier just using the Mao charactersitcs and the like.

By 1944 the communists were probably doing more fighting than the nationalists, at least until the nationalists were rolled in the Japanese 44 offensive.

Breunor

I don't think this was done to avoid offending mainland China gamers, as no one would actually be offended to see Chiang Kai Shek as the Chinese leader during WW2.
It seems more like a mistake (lack of knowledge) than a politically motivated move.

Dida said:

I don't think this was done to avoid offending mainland China gamers, as no one would actually be offended to see Chiang Kai Shek as the Chinese leader during WW2.
It seems more like a mistake (lack of knowledge) than a politically motivated move.

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My decision was based on two things:

- Communist China did actually win the civil war; and
- I had to keep the number of civs down (in the official release anyways).

Not mistake / lack of knowledge.

Dida said:

It seems more like a mistake (lack of knowledge) than a politically motivated move.

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Call me crazy, but somehow I think that the person who designed an extensive World War II scenario based around both the European and Asian theatres *probably* was aware that Chiang was the leader of the KMT faction that was the most powerful force in mainland China during the time period of the game. A pretty bold assumption on my part, I know.

Breunor said:

The KMT was the strongest faction in China, but they hardly 'controlled' it. China was a mass of the communists, the KMT, warlords, etc.

Clearly, Chiang is the best choice, but it may have been easier just using the Mao charactersitcs and the like.

By 1944 the communists were probably doing more fighting than the nationalists, at least until the nationalists were rolled in the Japanese 44 offensive.

Breunor

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Communists rarely fought the Japanese head on in the entire war from 1937-1945. The "hundred regiment" battle was more like 5 regiment battle, and their highly self-promoting Pingshing Guan victory was a guerilla skirmish that caught a Japanese supply unit behind the lines.

Throughout the war and especially after 1939 the Communists were simply conducting guerilla activities, not combat guerilla activities against the Japanese either, and more like guerilla propaganda activities to rebuild their support after their famed "long march" victory which some authors have bedunked with Russian documents as horse trading between Chiang and the Russians.

If you're interested in the history of this period, you can start by simply using wiki or any history of China during this period that isn't published by the PRC or uses J Edgar Snow as their source.

Communists fighting the Japanese is pure propaganda

PS - by 1937 the KMT certainly "controlled" China, and only a few warlords were left who were all in allegiance to Chiang (took orders from Central - Chiang), including Yen Xishan in Shanxi, Chang Xueliang in Manchuria, and Li Yuenhong in Central China.

It's all about money. Firaxis would even name him "Great Mao, ruler of the world" - just to have permission to sell the game in China. Be frank Dale, didn't they push you to do that?

Dale said:

My decision was based on two things:

- Communist China did actually win the civil war; and
- I had to keep the number of civs down (in the official release anyways).

Not mistake / lack of knowledge.

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CCP and KMT was nominally allied from 1936-1944. The Chinese civil war did not officially start until 1946 with the armaments and supplies captured from the Japanese by the USSR.

However by 1947 the central government of the KMT was so weak (from actually fighting the war) and the bureaucracy and local government (mostly former warlords) were so corrupt that the CCP was able to roll over several tens of millions of KMT troops (along with massive defections caused by CCP propagandists and possible KMT generals who were CCP moles).

If this is a WWII scenario, then certainly Mao is not the leader of China.

Dale said:

It's a game, just enjoy it.

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Some people don't seem capable of realizing Civ is just a game. <shrug> Maybe read that excellent history of civilization interivew with Sid - where he says the game uses historical elements to make it more familiar - and that's it as far as history goes.

Dale said:

My decision was based on two things:

- Communist China did actually win the civil war; and
- I had to keep the number of civs down (in the official release anyways).

Not mistake / lack of knowledge.

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Works for me!

Breunor

milty908 said:

Communists rarely fought the Japanese head on in the entire war from 1937-1945. The "hundred regiment" battle was more like 5 regiment battle, and their highly self-promoting Pingshing Guan victory was a guerilla skirmish that caught a Japanese supply unit behind the lines.

Throughout the war and especially after 1939 the Communists were simply conducting guerilla activities, not combat guerilla activities against the Japanese either, and more like guerilla propaganda activities to rebuild their support after their famed "long march" victory which some authors have bedunked with Russian documents as horse trading between Chiang and the Russians.

If you're interested in the history of this period, you can start by simply using wiki or any history of China during this period that isn't published by the PRC or uses J Edgar Snow as their source.

Communists fighting the Japanese is pure propaganda

PS - by 1937 the KMT certainly "controlled" China, and only a few warlords were left who were all in allegiance to Chiang (took orders from Central - Chiang), including Yen Xishan in Shanxi, Chang Xueliang in Manchuria, and Li Yuenhong in Central China.

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Well, my source on this is Donovan Webster's 'The Burma Road: The Epic Story of the China-Burma-India theater in WWII'. Actually, that is my source for the Communists fighting and the nationalists. Webster talks about this quite a bit, how Roosevelt was effectively switching support to Mao. Indeed, Mao felt betrayed (probably rightfully so) when Truman shifted the alliance back to Chaing. I have other sources for the warlords, I can gather them. and Webster does talk to them.

Stillwell had had enough of Chaing and basically wanted to stop shipping Lend-Lease, and was impressed by the fact that the Communsits really resisted. The meetings of the US brass with Mao and his staff cleaarly happened, they aren't propaganda, although the results can be subject to interpretation.

Jim Dunnigan has also talked about how the Communists were doing more of the fighting by the war's end.

Of course, this is a theater where there is a lot of different opinions.

Breunor

Couch Tomato said:

Sure, complain about Hitler being in the game, or Nazi flags bearing the Weimar flag.

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The flag in the game is actually the imperial flag. Weimar had the same flag modern Germany uses.. Black/Red/Gold.

well if you don't like it, I'm sure there are plenty of mods and such that will cover it eventually. Fireaxis is picky of what they will release, so most of the really creative stuff goes into the mods. My take on the pre-built in mods such as Rise of Rome or Vikings, even this one, is just to be a simple little example of what we as modders can do. They will never overdo it and always try to keep things as simple as possible, to keep those on the lower spectrum of pc performance, still able to play.

Here's a novelty...

Lets just enjoy Civ for what it is - A GAME????????

It seems some people on here are all too quick to pass judgement when it comes to criticising the work and effort of others.

Like I said, others have obviously spent a considerable amount of their own time and effort to enhance an already great game. So what, it's not historically accurate, it doesn't claim to be, so rather than whining about irrelevant details, why don't you do your own 100&#37; historically accurate mod? No? I thought not, as some people prefer to complain/whine endlessly rather than being productive themselves.

Dale, whenever you have dealings with the general public there will always be those that like nothing better than to pick holes in what you do, so I wouldn't take it to heart. It's what we humans do.

Dale said:

My decision was based on two things:

- Communist China did actually win the civil war; and
- I had to keep the number of civs down (in the official release anyways).

Not mistake / lack of knowledge.

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Those two points are both very good and I think you made the right decisions... but, Dale, the NAME! Chairman Zedong? I learned that was wrong in elementary school social studies! Also he wasn't really "Chairman Mao" until later anyway.

BlackJAC said:

Here's a novelty...

Lets just enjoy Civ for what it is - A GAME????????

It seems some people on here are all too quick to pass judgement when it comes to criticising the work and effort of others.

Like I said, others have obviously spent a considerable amount of their own time and effort to enhance an already great game. So what, it's not historically accurate, it doesn't claim to be, so rather than whining about irrelevant details, why don't you do your own 100% historically accurate mod? No? I thought not, as some people prefer to complain/whine endlessly rather than being productive themselves.

Dale, whenever you have dealings with the general public there will always be those that like nothing better than to pick holes in what you do, so I wouldn't take it to heart. It's what we humans do.

Click to expand...

It is supposedly supposed to be a WW2 Pacific scenario with almost exact info everywhere-having Mao lead the whole of China during WW2 is just Horse Raddish, and China being Communistic during WW2 is even more Horse Raddishy. C'mon, it is supposed to be historically accurate to the extent of civ names and leaders, so this scenario needs modding to be enjoyable in the historic manner. This is just plain wrong.

the one and only burn I have on this is getting some historical stuff wrong, that was easily avoidable. When your building a mod, in the dark closet of fireaxis, it is your responsibility to check and double check for historical accuracy. Really great work Dale, don't me wrong your contributions are great to the civ4 community, but like R.B. said, we will need to mod it to enjoy the historical aspect of it.