Philosophical trait is useless

Pawel

Pawel

Daimyo
Joined
Mar 18, 2003
Messages
625
The philosophical trait sounds nice on paper, but is actually completely useless. The reason for this can be understood with basic math. Since the cost for each addition great person increases exponentially, an increase in the number of generated points by a constant factor (two) has very limited impact. I haven't studied the costs at all levels and for all map sizes, but let me just give a very simple example.

Assume that the cost doubles for each new great person. This means that the Philosophical trait will only give you at most one extra great person during the entire game!
 
Its not quite that simple. The cost increase for Great People is not a simple formula, and often getting that first Great Person earlier can net you another religion (aka money) or a military tech lead. Like all the traits, it has its uses.
 
Great people are most powerful in the early game. Philosophical civs get them twice as early as other civs.

Also, the cost is cubic (quadratic for the first 10), not exponential.
 
Pawel said:
The philosophical trait sounds nice on paper, but is actually completely useless. The reason for this can be understood with basic math. Since the cost for each addition great person increases exponentially
Click to expand...
Simply wrong. The cost for each aditional GP increases linearly.

costofGPnumber (n) = n * 100.

Where is this exponentially?

But I guess what you mean is the cost for all GP you get during the game, which is neither exponential, but polynomial:

costofallGPto (n) = 100 n * (n+1) / 2

In a regular game being philosophical easily makes more than one additional GP. And besides, experience tells, that some extra early GP can have a great impact on the game.

Pawel said:
Assume that the cost doubles for each new great person.
Click to expand...
This assumption doesn't hold. Where is the point?

I advise learning some basic math before trying to sound clever. ;)
 
Even then, you're missing all the many, many other factors that come into play....

Basic example, marathon / huge map A) as Saladin founds Buddhism B) as Izzy...founds Hindhuism...and lets say 300 turns later start producing Gp points towards a prophet...both have 8 cities

A) 50 turns later pops a proph and builds the shrine, and uses the extra commerce to build another 4 cities, and assigns another gp to proph in holy city

B) 50 turns later has another 50 turns to wait

A & b) 100 turns after gp point start A) Pops a 2nd gproph and founds say Christianity with it, plus has a dozen well established cities and has his religion spread widely through shrine...B) Builds shrine and has 8 cities still, plus the Buddhism religion has spread throughout most of her neighbours who she now hates and hate her back...

Simplistic example, but who would you rather be?

To say phil trait is useless though, is misunderstanding the myriad of diversities than can arise from its use to get early great people..and how their use can lead to benefits much greater than a simple x2 mathematical function.
 
Philosophical can give you an edge earlier by using a gp to discover an important tech.
 
Not to mention the crazy synergy they have with the Parthenon. Not that you should chase it, as it's obviously expensive, but if you have marble and it's hangng around....yummy. But that's just one scenario.

Mathematically, I agree, it doesn't sound too special, but, in practice, it really is. The Saladin vs. Izzie example is a good one, but it also works to facilitate and strengthen slingshots. The sooner you're running Beuracracy, the better. If you get your GS before your competition and burn him for Philosophy, you get the benefit of Taoism.
 
Naokaukodem said:
I don't know if it has been mentionned before, but this is valid for EVERY city. So if you have 20 cities, it is 20 more great persons!
Click to expand...


Yes, but you have to GENERATE points first, which means either having a specialist or building a wonder in each city (!!!!) AND when one city gets a GL, the needed points increases everywhere. Even if every city is generating something, you're lucky to get ten in any game, unless you've built every wonder, but then the game is no fun because everyone else would be far behind you!!
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't it increase in Fibonacci sequence (1+2+3+4+5....)?
 
100, 200, 300, 400, 500, 600, 700, 800, 900, 1000, then 1200, 1400, 1600, 1800, 2000, 2200, etc

Found here
 
You are mistaken. It doesn't give you double the amount of Leaders, but it does give you a bit under 50% more. Check it out:

Going up by increments of 100, then switching at 1k:

0
+100 = 100 - 1 GP
+200 = 300 - 2 GPs
+300 = 600
+400 = 1000
+500 = 1500 - 5 GPs
+600 = 2100
+700 = 2800
+800 = 3600
+900 = 4500
+1000 = 5500 - 10 GPs
+1200 = 6700
+1400 = 8100
+1600 = 9700
+1800 = 11500
+2000 = 13500 - 15 GPs

Now, take a non-philosophical leader and have him produce 6000 GP points all in one city with none in others. This will give him 10 GPs over the course of a game. Take the philosophical leader and double it to 12000 GP points and he has produced 14 GPs.

This is NOT an exponential increase. An exponential increase would be:

+100 = 100
+200 = 300
+400 = 700
+800 = 1500
+1600 = 3100
+3200 = 6300
etc.

Now, if it were exponential as you said, philosophical would indeed only net you one more GP per game. Luckily, this is not the case.
 
VladTepes said:
Yes, but you have to GENERATE points first, which means either having a specialist or building a wonder in each city (!!!!) AND when one city gets a GL, the needed points increases everywhere. Even if every city is generating something, you're lucky to get ten in any game, unless you've built every wonder, but then the game is no fun because everyone else would be far behind you!!
Click to expand...

lucky to get ten? I always at least get 10. Wonders don't really matter as much as specialists. Implement a caste system at the time of founding code of laws and you can pull alot of GP out. I am not sure how many I have pulled out in a game but I know I have watched the GP trying to add up to 10k.
 
The philosophical trait is actually quite good. What is this comment about 'lucky to get 10' great persons? In my most recent games, with philosophical leaders, I got to the Great Person at 3,000 great people points, and was chasing the next one (which would have been at 3300...it goes to 300 point increments after 3,000) when the game ended. I think that is the 20th great person when you get the one at 3,000...

With non-philosophical leaders, I can usually only get to the great people at around 2200 great people points. That means the philosophical leader gets me four or five additional great people. A couple extra early techs, maybe founding a religion (I just love grabbing Theology or Code of Laws with an early Great Prophet); or maybe a couple extra super-science specialists in my science city; maybe an extra culture bomb; or maybe an extra trade route can add up over the course of the game.

And for those of us who like to get Oxford up in our science city as soon as possible, the cheap universities are a nice touch as well...
 
I love the philosophical trait! When you combine it with the wonder, national wonder, and perhaps even the civic that boosts Great Persons points, you can really pump the Great People out.

And I notice a huge difference in how many Great Persons I create when playing a Philosophical civ over another civ without the trait. I've never tried to measure the difference, but it's a lot more than one extra. ;)
 
Alraun said:
You are mistaken. It doesn't give you double the amount of Leaders, but it does give you a bit under 50% more. Check it out:

...

Now, if it were exponential as you said, philosophical would indeed only net you one more GP per game. Luckily, this is not the case.
Click to expand...

If it indeed goes as you say beyond the first doubling, it certainly isn't exponential. :) However, since the bonuses in civ do not accumulate (you add the percentages rather than multiplying factors), Try to make a similar estimate for a city where you have the National Epic (+100%) and assume that you have built the Parthenon (+50%)! In fact, it only makes sense to have specialists and as many wonders as possible in this city, so this is not a bad example. If you then add Pacifism (+100%) on top of that, the difference will be minute. ;) Compare this with a trait like financial, where the extra trade goes into the base value and is affected by all bonuses, or aggressive which doesn't give points to each unit, but rather a free base promotion.

Honkoid: We are all waiting for you Nobel prize for discovering that the integration of a polynomial is - a polynomial! :lol: Newton is no longer around so he can't collect the money. But when you go in front of the king in Stockholm I would suggest somewhat better manners. Learning to spell might also improve the impression!
 
Philosophical is not useless. One of my favorite civs are the Greeks because of Alexander's traits.

Think of it like this: You have a base GP of 100%; get the parthenon and there's another 50%; add pacifism during peace times and you have a whopping 250% advantage for GP. That's not something to sneeze at. Oh, and lets not forget about the National Epic and Caste System. I remember I employed this combo in one of my Phil games (think it was Frederick) and it was like great people were bursting of out rocks.

The other advantage, as some already mentioned, is that you get more GP earlier than others. By the time other non Phil civs get their first GP, it's likely you've already gotten your second, or just damn close. Factor in religion and the role of prophets + holy cities, CoL isn't as imperative as it normally would be (assuming you spread the faith).
 
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