Hawk Party Derails Attempted Senate Interference: The Senate for Civ 4

Call me sentimental, but I sometimes miss the Senate from Civ 2. Yes, it was annoying at times, a bit crazy and frustrating at others, but it really made wars under republics/democracies interesting and more realistic. So what I’d like to try to do is create a simple modcomp for cIV that reintroduces the Senate, though improved from Civ II.

For those of you who don’t know about this feature, here’s how it worked: when your government was democracy/republic, you could not simply declare war all the time; there was a check on your power, known as “The Senate”. Sometimes it would let you start a war, sometimes not (it varied depending on govt. type and other factors). If you were in a war for a long time, the Senate could force a ceasefire or peace treaty. Oh, and having the U.N. actually did something useful: you could declare wars as a democracy more of the time (“peacekeeping”).

Here are my thoughts for how it could work in cIV.

The war weariness system was designed to replace the Senate, but I think we can actually use this to our advantage. The longer you are in a war under representation or universal suffrage, and hence, the higher the war weariness, the higher the probability the Senate will intervene and stop the war.

If you declare a war, there should be a base probability that the Senate will say yes or no, which would be modified by past history with the offending civ. (Past wars with, demands made by, and religious differences with AI civs would increase support; peaceful and trading relations would decrease it.)

If someone declares war on you first, there should be a big boost of support from the Senate (meaning that they will not force a ceasefire the minute the AI contacts you; this was a big problem in Civ 2.)

There is also the possibility of extending this to other concepts, not just war.

With these and other ideas, I think we can clean up the old Senate and bring it back into use! What do you think?

Great idea, it would limit the ability for conquest win. Only two questions, would a unit going into a non-open bordered area not be let in if a war would not be allowed to start, and would the AI have a senate.

Another base probability factor should be comparative military power and overall power.

A unit entering a non-open borders area would not be allowed in, assuming this would trigger a war and the Senate refused it. Caravels and other similar units would be exempt, of course.

However, you've given me an idea. I remember that even in Civ 2, a pre-emptive nuclear strike could be overruled by the Senate! This makes no sense to me--"I don't care if you Senators don't want war! The bombs are on their way and it really doesn't matter, 'cause in 10 minutes there'll be war whether you like it or not!" Just like in Dr. Strangelove. It would be nice to make a nukes somehow immune to this, but that's probably too hard to code.

To answer your second question, presumably the AI would have the same system (every civ under Rep/US would). What we're basically going to have to do is alter the python coding that deals with going to war, so I think this would affect every player. The harder part comes in with the forcing peace algorithm.

I agree that the senate would be a good addition. I think it was silly for them to take it away in the first place.

Another idea: if you rapidly lose many cities on your own continent (i.e., homeland), you may lose the support of the Senate. Witness France in WWII, Petain and Vichy.

Perhaps you won't have to obey the Senate if your capital is captured? The Senate probably escapes but many leaders would be killed. So maybe something about that could be done

This is the text from Civ II referring to the Senate actions. (The first one is my favorite quote from the entire game; the first time I saw it, I laughed out loud. )

Hawk Party derails attempted Senate interference. Action confirmed!

You are overruled by the Senate! Action cancelled.

You are overruled by the Senate! Cease fire signed.

You are overruled by the Senate. Permanent peace treaty signed!

The Senate meets with the %STRING1 Emissary behind your back and signs a cease fire!

The Senate meets with the %STRING1 Emissary behind your back and signs a permanent peace treaty!

The Senate chooses to allow the action under the guise of a U.N. "peacekeeping" mission.

Previous %STRING0 aggression against us convinces the Senate to allow this action.

The Senate passes a resolution supporting continued "peacekeeping" action against the %STRING1.

The Senate passes a resolution supporting continued action against the %STRING1.

I have always suspected that Firaxis changed the behavior of war weariness to be more compatible with current US foreign policy. Remember the days when we all believed that republics/democracies were inherently peaceful? Or that assemblies/senates were an effective check on executive power?

Yeah.

Gaius Octavius said:

The Senate chooses to allow the action under the guise of a U.N. "peacekeeping" mission.

The Senate passes a resolution supporting continued "peacekeeping" action against the %STRING1.

Click to expand...

I played alot at Civ II but I don't remeber well this part; how did it work?
And there's already a mod to make U.N. decide for a peace keeping mission under flag of a nation with International Forces???
I would love it, but I don't think it exists, anyway it would be great to have (REALLLY more realistic!)

Ah yes, the days of CivII, when giving the people a voice meant finding your leadership undermined for the rest of the game and when Fundamentalism was a greatest thing since Iron Working.

I really wouldn't mind seeing some of the negatives comes back for freedom of speech and other pro-Democracy civics. I'd also really like to see the game changed so that the AIs no longer automatically change to the civic furthest down the list (Free Religion, Emancipation, etc). Spending a ton of time spreading religion with missionaries only to have your opponent, who only has your religion around, change to Free Religion and get rid of all diplomatic boosts is really obnoxious.

Duke176 said:

I played alot at Civ II but I don't remeber well this part; how did it work?
And there's already a mod to make U.N. decide for a peace keeping mission under flag of a nation with International Forces???
I would love it, but I don't think it exists, anyway it would be great to have (REALLLY more realistic!)

Click to expand...

If you built or owned the U.N., and you were running a democracy, if you chose to declare war there was a 50% chance the Senate would allow it under the guise of a "peacekeeping" mission. Normally, it was very hard to declare war as a democracy unless the other civ had previously fought you. Thus, having the U.N. did something useful. And owning the U.N. also forced other civs to offer peace in negotiations ("world opinion forces us to make peace!").

that's cool. I forgave it.

Do you think that this will be possible?
Maybe add an option to reject the senate and descend into anarchy for X turns
Or impeachment where you lose control for X turns

essentially, but I know there are a lot of ppls really really more experienced than me and that could answer with more precision, I don't think it's an "impossible" work. the only prb is to create the correct function in order to obtain a sensated answer by the Senate.

for ex. the senate should answer basically checking if ppls are happy, feeded, employed, rich, well defended... a lot of factors that could make the answer REAL. Remember that the hardest part is really to translate the "mind process" that make you take one decision in spite of another and trasform it in a certain number of factors and functions.

mazzz said:

Do you think that this will be possible?
Maybe add an option to reject the senate and descend into anarchy for X turns
Or impeachment where you lose control for X turns

Click to expand...

This might be a good idea. There was another feature in Civ 2 where, if you engaged in spying and were caught, you'd cause an "international incident" and would get a message saying "Scandal in the Senate! [Civ] government falls!" You'd immediately be thrown into anarchy.

We could adapt this so that if you really want to declare war, you can, but at the cost of double-time anarchy.