RB3 - Daring Deity with Ottomans

Very, very nicely done. :goodjob: I've got the save, and I'll try to play 10 turns. If it gets too time-consuming and I'm forced to do 5, I'll let you know.

Looks like we're finally getting some better military units. The delay for early Renaissance tech and Forbidden Palace slowed us down in the short run, but will strengthen our civ in the end. Kinda glad I didn't have to play those difficult turns! :lol: My goal (without looking at the save yet) is to keep holding our lines and slowly pushing expansion forward, with the goal of making our real push for victory after we have Artillery in ~20 turns or whatever. Would be nice if we could reach the southern ocean and completely bisect our continent, although I have no idea if that's feasible. Probably not.

I see no reason to sign peace with either of our opponents, unless they would give us one of those deals where we get like half their empire and can raze it all down instantly. Further comments and suggestions welcome (I always check the thread before playing), so keep 'em coming.
 
Good job kicking France and Siam a bit there. Good thinking about selling the monument, even though the money is just a trifling sum, little things, little things.

I agree that Akhetaten is in a good position. I was actually considering settling a city there myself when I started burning down Neapolis. It fits the river's bend so well that it can be used as an excellent base for units and artillery, killing everything setting foot on our bank of it.

Also concur that the Japanese puppets are doing a pretty solid job. I was pleasantly surprised when they built colosseums and then started on mints.

Against Siam, I think siege units are the key (hence I built the roads on these hills). Until riflemen there doesn't seem to be anything really dangerous to elephants, not even pikes are very good. You can take them down using the GG and flanking bonuses but it's really crazy. I played a game with Ram myself at some point and three of these beasts just walk into capitals and take them without getting more than superficial scratches.

Our next policy is due in 3 turns. Definitely take Freedom for 10 happiness or something. This is weakened a bit by puppets not really taking specialists anymore, though, so we might want to start thinking about annexing and/or razing some of them during a golden age.
 
Oh, right, I wanted to explain the universities. Universities for our filler cities that run scientists are in my opinion a very good investment. I got used to these in my power-ICS games on Emperor difficulty setting where they become very useful. The calculation is this:

Size 6 city, Library, two scientists: 9 + 6 = 15 science. Add university: 9 + 9 = 18 * 1.5 = 27 science. A university adds 12 science at the cost of maybe 6 gold (3 maintenance, plus 3 or so lost yield). This is on par with another city (provided you can afford the extra scientist food-wise), not even considering faster GS generation. A market, the alternative build, will add something like 1 or maybe 2 gold. Science is a lot more valuable than gold to me because I want to tech fast, and we do have a fairly decent amount of gold.

Those cities are not really useful to produce military units, and we may not really need these so much anyways, but working on a medium-term university looks like a good deal to me (and is proven by turn 215 spaceship victory with Rome).
 
3. You can sometimes get the AIs to declare war on each other for cheap. For instance, on turn 110 Montezuma would have accepted 190 gold + OB to declare on Napoleon, which might have been quite a good investment, as it wastes their units without tying up your units to do that yourself.

Oops, I checked a bunch of diplomatic things but I missed that. Nice catch! That would probably have been really great for us.

Nice turns guys, I agree with staying at war with the rest and grinding down their armies. It's unfortunate that if we stay pseudo-allied with Monty we won't get our maritime CS back, but that seems like the best course for now.
 
Yeah, I see the point of the universities if we're going to start growing vertically and specializing the mini-cities - we're actually running out of room for new ones now. I just wasn't sure if we could actually feed 3 scientists in those cities after losing Helsinki, but we could always put down a fertilizer farm or two if we need to I suppose, or go send out a boat to look for a replacement city-state. We need some easy way to keep track of which city is doing what if we're specializing them, gets really confusing with cities working non-contiguous tiles...

I've been checking Monty every couple of turns to see if he'll declare on Napoleon ever since signing the PoS btw. No luck yet.
 
Just for what its worth, I know this is probably an arduous slog for you guys, but its really interesting reading for us lurkers. RB succession games had a lot to do with making me fall in love with Civ4, and they're only reinforcing my opinion that Civ5 is many miles away from being a game I want to keep playing. Still, I appreciate the effort immensely.
The RB games, and Arathons are the only ones I'm reading as I expect the better players in them.
 
Lurker comment:

I've learned a lot from reading this thread! Thanks much for the great screens & write up.

Query: I notice that you don't seem to have bothered building wonders. In my games (prince level) I usually go for the Great Library > Civil service asap. Then I try to get Chitchen itza and maybe even stonhenge/oracle if they're still around. Then Forbidden Palace. At which point, the other civs get pissy about me hogging all the wonders.

Would you be building more wonders in a less combat-intensive game or do you usually prefer to skip them?
 
Lurker:


Oh in addition to the Monty research pact offer on the table, we also have the option to PoS Greece against Siam, I think Siam is our permanent enemy for all time so may as well take it.

also long military grinds aren't exactly new to civ5: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=196533

At least we don't have the stupid war weariness to deal with.

Wow, thank you for the link - I used to read a lot of acidsatyr's games, that Final Frontier is a great read! I've also found Mutineer alive in UF1 - The Deep End - his writing hasn't changed really, still difficult to decipher at times (but there's a definite progress when compared to Final Frontier game) :D Oh, and Methos plays there too! Maybe that's why the modhammering has been lenient on us recently xPPP

Very nice, I'm becoming addicted to your succession games - it's better fun than to actually play the game myself! :lol:
 
lurker's comment: ok, let me chip in my comments as well. Perfect execution of the game so far. the AI has shown it is totally incompetent and incapable. What puzzles me most is why they 'refuse' to upgrade their units. That one of the most powerful tools in Civ 5 in my mind when it comes to warfare.
This AI is totally depressingly bad. :(
 
Lurker comment

alpaca said:
Napoleon had the good grace to move his catapult even closer to my horseman to save him a bit of time. I think the reason why the AI so often pulls off crap like this is because they define a target area for their units and then auto-move them there with utter disregard for enemy positions. This is a very good explanation for the archer screw-up of Oda in my first turnset, too. The obvious exploit here is to take cities in likely paths of units, which will totally screw up the AI.
This is a very interesting observation, and it would explain why my scouts suicide themselves on barbarian camps if I let them auto-explore, and why units don't seem to care about pissing off city states.

Of course, this also suggests that mere fix to the path-finding algorithm may seriously improve AI combat. I mean, we can always hope, right?
 
Lurker comment

Sephis are strong vs cavalry since cavalry have -50% against mounted, which makes cavalry very weak against lancers.

As for the combat, -33% in open and how fast units die makes horsemen way to strong and all tactics are about hit and run.

I currently play with a mod that gives units 25 HP which makes trapping units with ZoC much more important, but the problem with the mod is the instaheal promotion.

But then I have great fun playing civ 5 and I'm not unhappy with beeing able to win on diety. Sometimes I can get frustrated and quit a game but when I return to it the next day I still have great fun with it.

Sorry for ranting but I feel sorry for you if you are not enjoying your game.
 
Lurk lurk... gurk. *hic*

Nicely done! I love how that Egyption city traded hands 3 times during your turns, and went in a full circle back to Egypt. I hope it does that again lol. I also like your city name choice.

I notice Siam has a lot less units in that last picture. Hard to really tell, but it seems like a good sign.

Right, the "oh crap" image was 9 visible units. Now it's 2, all at the cost of one brave young pike. Definite trade advantage: human player.
There's just no good option for invading at this point in the game. If you want to invade the AI you usually have to wait for them to throw away all their units, first.

Looks like they're doing a fine job. :lol:
 
lurker's comment: I would definitely like to see some kill ratios please if you have the time. I know with the proper preparation Civ 4 could give 10:1 but I'm guessing it'll be a lot higher.
@Folkert: but the problem is that you shouldn't be able to beat Deity, at least this early in the game's life span. The insane boni available to the AI should mean that you have to make the right move every turn in order to keep in the game. Frankly a game which is effectively won despite a 4 on 1 dogpile by superior numbers is not a good advertisement for the playablilty of Civ 5
 
lurker's comment:

I think there is some problem with the AI. I would like the AI to buy city states more aggresivly, it should be an easy fix. Then I think there should be small changes to the combat system so that you no longer can kill unit with one attack constantly.

All I mean is that I'm having great fun with the game and find this game they are playing really interesting and I'm sorry to hear they are not enjoying it.
 
Turn 0 (500AD): As usual when inheriting a succession game with a lot happening, I take about 20 minutes or so just to familiarize myself with what we're doing. I'll start with military stuff. It looks like we have two main fronts, one down in the south by the Egyptian city of Akhetaten (where we have 3 knights + 1 treb + 1 pike) and then another front over in the west by Kayseri with 2 knights + 2 trebs + 1 crossbow. There's one Great General with each group, nice. That's almost all of our military, aside from a couple of scattered units elsewhere. I notice that we have an injured horseman in Cumae; is there some reason for this unit not to be a knight (?) I go ahead and spend the 150g for the upgrade, since I don't see anything telling me not to do so. We are nearly last in military power on the Demographics, only just about Egypt, which isn't a good sign. Hopefully some upgrades will help us out in the rankings. The good news is that Siam's power has fallen below France, which means that alpaca and uberfish have hurt them pretty badly. Nice work!



I go through our cities and try to do some microing. I'd like to plant signs on the map designating which cities are set up for production and specialist/science use, but there are no signs in Civ5. Then I decided that I would rename the cities to indicate that, and had to search for ages before finally discovering how to rename them. The answer is that tiny, tiny little "Edit" button next to the city name. Hmmmm. A lot less intuitive than simply clicking on the city's name, but it does work. Now notice that the patch has broken something else: the food box in the top-left corner always shows as full now from the city menu, no matter how much food the city actually has. There's no graphical representation whatsoever of how close you are to growing, without mousing over the food box or canceling out of the city screen entirely to the world map. Argh! :mad: What a pain. Really dislike the whole interface system in this game. I mean, it looks pretty, but it's sure not that functional.

Here's how the cities are now set up:

Production
Istanbul
Edirne [has barracks]
Bursa

Gold
Constantinople
Byzantium
Ankara

Science/Specialists
My Little Pony
Ayshe's Vinyard

The other cities are too immature yet to have their roles completely determined. Generally speaking, we want the production cities to crank military units or settlers, so they don't need any infrastructure beyond a colosseum. The gold cities will want market and bank emphasized, although I'd still get a quick library too so that we can run more Scientists as needed to avoid overflow. The last group prioritizes universities over markets, to boost their Great Scientist output. I went through and stuck a P = Production, G = Gold, or S = Science at the end of these city names to help distinguish them. Some of our current builds don't make a lot of sense for this specialization, which is understandable given that this is a succession game. Hopefully we can use city renaming to make it easy to remember the roles of our filler cities from here on out. Of course, we can and will have to micro this for the research of each and every new tech to avoid wasteful overflow...

I don't sign a research agreement with Montezuma, because I very much doubt we'll ever see a tech out of that. AI will likely declare war before 30 turns are up.

Turn 1 (520AD): Gunpoweder tech discovered. I decide to go for Chemistry next, as we have quite a few trebuchuets and exactly one pikeman that can be upgraded to a rifleman. Seems like having cannons would be more helpful in our current situation. The tech costs 990 beakers; I micro it down to 6 turns of research at 165 beakers/turn.



Egyptian front is very quiet, but two French musketeers and a treuchet are moving up towards Cumae. I shift a couple of our units around in that direction, although unfortunately a lot of our units are injured and healing this turn. I'm building a road from Kayseri to Cumae to simplify things over there, also plan to add another city in that region with our next settler. Purchase a janissary in Edirne (460g) to deal with the one stray elephant wandering towards Kyoto. In all honesty, we should probably build an armory in Edrine next, and then just rush-buy all our units there for the free experience. Having one single city with barracks/armory seems like a good idea, since at least half of your units in this game will be rush-bought and can magically appear anywhere on the map.

Turn 2 (540AD): Quiet turn. Still no advancement from the Siamese units on the Egyptian front. I am tactically sloppy at Cumae, killing the trebuchet but only damaging one of the musketeers. We shouldn't lose any units, but I could have done better. Still getting used to the details of road movement and zone of control in very crowded areas.



Turn 3 (560AD): France... retreats with both units without attacking?! Ummm, OK. I kill one of them with our crossbow + trebuchet as it tries to walk out of range. That's no smarter, AI! Other one is too far to pursue. Our frontiers are really stable right now; I think the best place to advance is in the southwest against France. Just seems like the easiest place to make some headway. We can also adopt a new policy and I take Freedom, taking us from -1 happiness to +6 happiness. Very nice. Forbidden Palace is still due in 6 turns for even more happiness.



Turn 4 (580AD): Ramawhatever of Siam asks us for everything we have in exchange for peace. Not so much, dude. Guess you forgot whose units did all the dying in this war. Elsewhere, France has retreated that musketeer completely out of the picture, and moved up an unsupported trebuchet instead. Hmmmm. If he moves it forward even one tile further, it will die without achieving anything. In the west, shuffling units and workers so that I can plant another forward city next turn. We should be able to keep step-stoning a little further ahead all the time, annexing more and more territory as we go.

Turn 5 (600AD): Alex requests mutual Open Borders. I actually would give this to him, but I'm afraid of incurring more permanent Open Borders zonkiness due to the game's bugs, and so turn him down. In the south/west, France moves up a trebuchet right next to our knights on open ground to get killed. :smoke: Oh my. He also moves up an unsupported knight, which gets trebuchet bombed and then cleaned up with a knight. Easy stuff.



A combat settler founds another city for us in a strategic location. Because I renamed Istanbul, the game now suggests the same name again, blarg. Let's change that to Twin Peaks, to reflect the location between two mountain ranges. From here, we should be able to capture Ravenna, owned by the weak city state of Ravenna. From there, we'd have the possibility to take Rome and cut off about a third of France's territory. Dunno if I'll achieve that, but let's see what happens. All of our front lines are secure and we have 1000 gold in the bank, we can afford to push a little bit. Would love to get down to the southern sea coast and bisect our continent to make defending easier.



Turn 6 (620AD): The west is quiet but now the southeast isn't, as Siam moves forward 2 elephants and a pike across the river at Akhetaten. So much for pushing forward anywhere... :crazyeye: First I recall our Great General from Cumae, who I had in position to defend either city as needed. Then I bombard with the trebs. The one in the back can only hit the Siamese pikeman, scratch one unit. Unfortunately both elephants are double-promoted with Shock, and get a 40% bonus when fighting on flat ground. Negates the -33% penalty completely, ouch! I don't see any way to kill both elephants without losing a unit, and so I make the executive decision to preserve our knights and let the pikeman bite it. I kill one elephant and damage the other one badly (4hp left) but Akhetatan will probably fall, and our pikeman inside the city with it. Depends on how smart the AI chooses to get. Another knight and our janissary are moving to reinforce the area.

Turn 7 (640AD): I was right, and Siam captures Akhetatan from us, killing our pikeman in the process. The AI also acted intelligently and managed to kill one of our knights as well, which was again due to some poor play on my part. You can't afford to be trading units at this difficulty level, and I've been doing too much of that. As long as the city itself doesn't die on this interturn, we'll be fine. Actually we'll be OK even if it does fall, but that would cost us another knight, which would be irritating. I've moved some more units over to this front, and cash-rushed another knight in Edirne to make up for the knight we just lost. So there's really no true danger here, but it's irritating to mismanage things the way I've done. (I will say that Siam's elephants are one of the worst possible unique units to have to face off against!)

We also discovered Chemistry, although I was using our trebs this turn and couldn't upgrade them. Metallurgy is next on the path to rifles, due in 5 turns thanks to some creative use of Scientist specialists.

Turn 8 (660AD): Darn it, the AI did the smart thing again and took Akhetatan with a combination of its ranged units along with its one elephant. I've totally messed this up, now having lost 2 knights and 1 pike on this front for no real reason. Terrible, terrible play from me. :( The front is now stable, and we have control of the city, but I've caused us to take some losses here. We also now have to go deal with Siam's attack on Genoa, where there's an elephant and a pike and a trebuchet moving up into view.



Turn 9 (680AD): We build the Forbidden Palace and get a ton of happiness, now up to +19. Should pop a Golden Age very soon as a result. Happiness is a total non-issue, we simply need more land to plant cities! Egypt, Siam, and Genoa all continue to skirmish in the south, with us now being forced to defend a very wide front to protect Genoa from attack:



We are completely and totally dug in on the left bank of this river. It makes for a great killing zone, but I don't see us making any forward progress here in the near future. Probably have to wait for artillery to start pushing forward. Very tough slog at the moment.

Turn 10 (700AD): Alex asks us to declare war with him on Egypt. Umm, I think we have enough enemies already at present, thanks. I kill several more Siamese units and do some repositioning. Finally feel like that southern front is back under control again, so that's some good news at least. :)
 




Apologies for what felt like a subpar turnset. Still, I was able to hold the lines everywhere and make some modest progress forward in the west by securing control of another mountain pass. We could use a cannon over there if we get the chance, although I didn't see France attacking there at all. No guarantee that will continue in the future, of course. You can see our units holding the river line everywhere across that long front. I'll leave it up to future players to decide when and where they want to try to make progress. (I still feel like the Arretium/Antium/Rome area is the weakest area in the overall Siam + France border. Lots of rivers there too, which would make defending easier if we can get control of some of those cities.)

Sorry I spent so much of our gold. Charis colonial spending spree, haha! :lol: We'll be in good shape soon enough, most of that income went to upgrading our trebs to cannons at 170g each. All five of them are now upgraded, by the way, and the cannons make a real difference against those blasted elephants. In terms of tech, we're 2 turns away from Metallurg, and then Rifling looks like it will take another 7 after that. 1567 total beakers divided by 7 turns at 224 beakers/turn. We can definitely hire more Scientists, I've been running the minimum necessary to avoid overflow the last couple of turns. Don't think we can reach the 261 beakers/turn level for a 6t Rifling research though. We also picked up a Great Scientist on the last turn, who I'm guessing we'll use to pop Dynamite (artilley) as soon as we finish Rifling + Fertilizer. That should take about 15 more turns total, and then we'll have some really nice toys. Would be nice to go back and get caravels after that, so we can begin explore the coasts of this continent and find more city states. We'll trip a Golden Age very soon from happiness, which will also help out quite a bit.

Because it was requested, the overall kill/death ratio from my turnset:

Killed
5 elephants
3 musketeers
2 trebuchets
1 pikeman
1 archer
1 scout

Lost
2 knight
1 pikeman

I consider this to be very poor, as it wasn't even 5:1. It's pretty easy to get 20:1 or even 25:1 in this game.

Roster
Sullla
pi-r8 (luddite) <<< UP NOW
SevenSpirits <<< on deck
alpaca
uberfish

Good luck with the upcoming turns! :D
 

Attachments

  • RB3 700AD.Civ5Save
    774.4 KB · Views: 150
lurkibbitz

Is attacking Ravenna definitely safe? Not sure if attacking a puppeted CS holding is the same as attacking the CS itself. If it is, how much of a buffer is there on deity before CSes declare permanent war on you from aggression, and more importantly how much of a buffer is there before the CSes band together and declare mass war on you?
 
Good to see that other people also lose units sometimes, so it's not only me :lol:

I don't think you did a bad job, although I would probably have retreated from Akhetaten and re-captured it the next turn, taking an elephant in the process. With cities so pathetically weak, the cost for that is very low.

I don't typically specialise my cities very much when doing ICS: They all run science max. I will have a few production cities set up but otherwise what's left over from all the science works trade posts and contributes gold.

By the way: It's not like the game isn't fun at all, solving the unit puzzle with minimal losses is actually an interesting intellectual exercise. It's just that you have to grind through so many units and do some particularly annoying micromanagement steps (like micromanaging scientists to avoid overflow) that take a lot of time and annoy you all the while, which therefore features often in our accounts, and is tiring if you play more than a couple of turns - which actually makes the succession game a lot better than my own one or two deity games. If it wasn't fun at some level, I would quit.
 
lurker's comment: Thanks Sullla for the kill ratio, now if I could be very bold as to ask for the total one for the game? Or is that hard to get at?
 
Top Bottom