SGOTM 03 - Smurkz

Welcome to your C_IV SGOTM 3 Team Thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread for this game, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest.

The Game
As Peter The Great, Leader of All the Russias, you are charged with achieving a Diplomatic or Space Victory.

This Monarch difficulty game is on a Standard size, Gyathaar-special, crowded map, at Epic speed, against 17 rivals. All victory conditions are enabled, but the laurels for this contest will be awarded to the teams who achieve the fastest Diplomatic or Space victory.

Version
Your team will play this map in Civilization IV version 1.61, using the standard HoF Mod for Windows version 1.61. This is currently HOF_Mod-1.61.008, but we shall use the latest version of the mod as at the start date for the game.

Your start file will be available on the SGOTM Progress and Results Page at midnight, server local time, at the start of December 1st.

Here's the starting position - click the image below to see a larger version.



Map Parameters
Playable Leader/Civ - Peter of Russia
Rivals - all the other 17 civs in version 1.61
World size - Standard
Difficulty - Monarch
Landform - Archipelago, low sea level, tropical
Game Speed - Epic
AI Aggression - Aggressive
Barbarians - Standard
Permanent Alliances Enabled
No City Razing

Notes

• Please visit the Civ4 SGOTM reference thread to check out the rules and procedures to ensure that you are adequately prepared for this game.
  
• BOTH Civilization IV v1.61 and Warlords v.2.08 are supported for this SGOTM. No other versions can be used, and you will have to stick with your chosen version throughout the game.
  
• Teams will compete for four awards for each version of the game - the Gold, Silver and Bronze Laurels for the fastest finishes, and the Wooden Spoons for the lowest scoring finisher.
  
• All teams must play the sponsored variant - awards will be given to teams who achieve Diplomatic or Space victories in the least turns.
  
• All saved game files uploaded to the server are parsed through software that extracts and archives data about your save, including reload count for each turn set.

Remember, Rule Number 11: Have Fun.

First sign-in for once, woohoo!

Haven't really had time to think about this game at all, what with all the other games going around. Hopefully we can get SGOTM02 into the archive fairly soon, and SGOTM 11 shouldn't last much longer either.

Second to sign in!
Here I am. Let me make my first unqualified comment: I want go for spaceship as a former space engineer who is now missing his old job (No, I am very happy with my new one.) But it's some mandatory to vote for space victory for me. However that was only a joke, but we already have one excellent diplo victory in SGOTM1. Does this cry for using our experience in diplos or just trying something new?

Third!

Would diplo be quicker than space? Is front-door diplo possible?

Crowded Archipelago map with low sea level - it is not unlikely that we can meet the world with galleys and workboats. And we can probably dominate the tech and trade game quite easily.

Early religion is not feasible IMO. And a later religion is not very useful.

Hi team !
Seems like I am fourth....
First SGOTM, so I won't try to impose my views on the team
Anyway I hope game will be as interesting as it seems....

Crowded map, Archipelago, so probably small opponents. Space race seems like an "easy" option, since we should be best at tech race. Diplo more difficult, unless we grab an early religion (by force probably) and spread it by being best on the seas.

I should try one practice game just to test these.

I saw you guys are still playing SGOTM2...

Just to let you know a little more about me. I am 33, french, and should be able to play during night time in Europe. Hope to learn to know you better. Have you played many SGOTM games together ?

Lurker Comment:
1st dedicated lurker to sign in.

First SGOTM, so I won't try to impose my views on the team

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On the contrary, please do. That's the point of SGOTM. I know first hand that this team would much rather know you're thinking about things than wonder if you're even reading along.

In my opinion it's quicker to diplomatic than space. You have to get very far in the tech tree to win space. The safe thing to do would be to head for diplomatic and then switch if relations make it seem unreachable.

I'm here and very full. I believe Thanksgiving is my favorite holiday due to all the excellent food. You know, I believe there's still some leftovers in the frig...

Like Niklas, I haven't even looked at this game and probably won't too much until SGOTM2 is complete. I'm rather shocked, as I'm usually the first or second to sign in. All because AlanH just had to open these during the Thanksgiving holiday!

It's true that trying diplo then switching to space is possible (fast win with space is not "that" possible).

My thought was that diplo with 17 opponnents was going to be difficult (hum.... ok let's say I am not a diplo expert, probably only won games by diplo when I see that I won't mak it for domination.... ). I guess conversion to one of the early religion would help (grabing the founding city could even be better....).

I have to check what diplo experts says in the forum, and try it.

AlanH said:

No City Razing

Remember, Rule Number 11: Have Fun.

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The 'No City Razing' is going to be very difficult IMO.

BTW, where'd the first 10 rules go!

Marc Aurel said:

but we already have one excellent diplo victory in SGOTM1. Does this cry for using our experience in diplos or just trying something new?

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With 17 civs we're going to need friends. I see no reason why we can't work on both victory conditions and possibly even aim for both, at least in the beginning.

zyxy said:

Would diplo be quicker than space? Is front-door diplo possible?

Early religion is not feasible IMO. And a later religion is not very useful.

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There isn't very many techs required to build the UN, and it would be faster, but probably harder with as many civs as we have. I agree on not going for a religion, but I believe we should convert to one to gain friends. We'll just have to see whose beliefs grant the best friends.

unkle said:

Hi team !
Seems like I am fourth....
First SGOTM, so I won't try to impose my views on the team

Click to expand...

Some of the best ideas and tactics have come from discussions from someone who disagreed with our current plans, so don't keep quiet because your view is different. State it so we can discuss the pros and cons of it.

BTW, welcome to Team Smurkz!

unkle said:

It's true that trying diplo then switching to space is possible (fast win with space is not "that" possible).

My thought was that diplo with 17 opponnents was going to be difficult (hum.... ok let's say I am not a diplo expert, probably only won games by diplo when I see that I won't mak it for domination.... ). I guess conversion to one of the early religion would help (grabing the founding city could even be better....).

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Other than slowing us down some, I believe it'd probably be best to go with both at first until we get a better idea of what the Staff is throwing at us.

Over the past few days a played a test game with the same settings as SGOTM 3 (I would attach a late game save but it is too big for the CFC attachment feature...). I tried - unsuccessfully - to do a front-door diplo (i.e., diplo victory by getting the AI's to like you, not by conquering the world). I'll try to play more variants over the next week (definitely want to try Cossacks), but here are some first conclusions:

• It seems doable to meet (almost) everyone with galleys and workboats, and caravels are not urgently needed. Biggest obstruction in this game was that difficult civs keep their borders closed.
• It is very easy to dominate the trading game. I beelined for key techs and let the AI's research in breadth. Because there are 17 trading partners, you can accept bad deals - typically I would sell techs for 10% of their beaker value or so. Many AI's will be far, far behind.
• Important techs to get quickly/first are:
  • Fishing (and possibly sailing) for the boats
  • Monarchy for HR.
  • Alphabet for trading
  • Currency for trading
  • Paper for map trading - this also help to circumnavigate, and the movement bonus is very nice to have.
  • Music, Liberalism, Economics and Physics for the freebees. I could easily get all of these first (though Music was rather close).
• On an archipel map the military techs are probably not so important early on, because you can prevent the barbs by fogbusting, and the overseas AI's usually cannot easily reach you.
• Our traits are Expansive (cheap granaries) and Philo (double GP points) Interesting civics with the Philo trait are Representation, Caste system, Mercantilism and perhaps Pacifism.
• Founding religions and building great wonders is quite difficult, if not impossible, and probably not worth it anyway.
• I am not at all good at diplo, but by the time I had the UN, roughly half the world was pleased with me, mostly because of heavy trading and a few gifts. I did not manage to avoid red marks for trading with worst enemies, refusing demands, etc. This seems quite impossible to do: AI's even attack each other within the same state religion, and there is no clear pattern in "who hates who". Also, in the mid and late game you typically get multiple demands/requests per turn - very annoying.
• Some civs are not worth befriending, because they have too many enemies: Toku, Izzy, Monty, Nappy (if he's in). Very easy-going civs are Hatty, Mansa, Germany.
• It seems that "pleased" is not enough for a UN vote for diplo win - maybe they need to be "friendly"? My "pleased" friends all abstained.
• I never had a state religion - and I am not certain it helps, because it also antagonizes a significant portion of the world. Perhaps a good strategy is to adopt a state religion and conquer a part of the world held by a different religion to get a majority behind you. This, I think, is the major difference between diplo and space: space is a lot of research, with a bit of conquest to optimize the size of your empire. Diplo is the other way around. The no-razing rule will probably be problematic for diplo, but not for space.

I should try a test game tonight or tommorow night.

Several ideas:
- wonders will be hard to come, but the sea ones (colossus + grat lighthouse) could be really helpful on this type of map. On a second thought, they can even be more helpful for a space race (commerce->science), even if tech and/or money can't be bad.
- production is an issue on those pelago maps, and tropical increases the jungle density... Expansive could help beginning on these.
- our starting location scares me in terms of production... forest ok for chop-starting probably, but after that....
- I would not like settling on the flood plains. It means dropping one of the clams and spice, but... cottaging really soon those little spots can be really nice. My initial guess would be 2E. The scout could start 1E (then NE) just to check. Any thoughts on how to micromanage the start ?

Hi unkle, and welcome to Team Smurkz! <-- (smurky character)

If you wonder about our history, follow the like in Methos' sig. As McLMan rightly said, we appreciate talkative participants. No comments are too stupid or too simple, since they may trigger a thought in someone that would not otherwise have come about. So I'm glad to see you take initiatives in the discussion, keep it up!

I would argue that the flood plains looks like the better place to settle. Compared to the river grass 2E the FP tile has +1 food, which we lose by settling it, but on the other hand the clams give +4 food which will be very powerful. I envision a high-food high-commerce low-production research center capitol, and then at least one high-production town by the hills to the NE. The incense is equivalent to a gems tile after plantation, so they will also be very valuable to have in the range of a research center.

Hello,

Battch checking in, and apparently last, sorry.

I just did SGOTM 2 w/ team Fubar, and that we were. The game sucked, but the format seems quite enjoyable, so I'm hoping the RNG doesn't end this attempt in the fifth turn as it did in that one for us.

As to this game and some of the opinions posted, I'll chime in with what I've found. Due to our early exit of the other game, I've had some time on my hands and I've been working with maps with this game's parameters for a couple weeks, having actually finished one diplo and one space race game (lost and won, respectively). I'll say that the space race was much easier than diplo due to huge number of civs (and it did seem you needed to be 'friendly' to get someones votes) as has been stated, so I would suggest that the stars be our target.

zyxy's points were very accurate to the experiences that I had. We can (probably) circumnavigate with work boats, and dominating trade/tech should be easy. I'd say getting to Alphabet after getting worker techs should be very high in priority. I don't think founding a religion is worth it for SR win, but is probably required for diplo win. Wonders can and should be gotten since we will be way ahead in techs, though the first few are hard to get. Bee-lining to build Oracle can really help our trading and can be done. As for state religion, if we are going space, then it's a game-time decision where the extra production (from OrgRel) can be nice. If we want diplo win, then we need to stay neutral or be dominant by founding. Production was an issue in all my games. Let's say the whip-master was quite busy. Also, I think starting in place is best, pending scout job.

As to the 'no razing' thing. I'm not the best warmonger, but in my SR win, I only declared war 3 times. The first 2 were very early in the game and were used to get my workboats around the world. Best I can remember no blood was shed in either of those 2 declarations. The 3rd was for real and was after I had Astronomy (thru Liberalism) and had Cossacks. Then I attacked 1 other civ that was next to me and large, eventually destroyed them, then hunkered down for some serious space-ship building. I think taking one other cive will be required, but we will need to be careful of our upkeep. Mine was a constant struggle toward the end, but it worked out.

Hope that wasn't overboard.

Cheers,
Battch

PS: Anyone know when the start will be posted?

battchy said:

Hope that wasn't overboard.

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Most certainly not! Welcome to Team Smurkz battchy, I'm sure you will enjoy the ride. We want talkative members, members who care, members who bring up ideas and who contest the ideas of others to bring about new points. All of these things will improve our game immensely, and each of our individual gaming skills as well. I'm very pleased to see that we have gotten two new members who seem to fulfill these criteria very well.

As for SR vs Diplo, I would be interested in playing an ultra-fast research game where warfare was less of an option. In other words, SR. SGOTM02 got me a bit tired of warring... but I'll certainly go with whatever the team wants.

Welcome to all new team members, and good to see our regulars .

battchy said:

Hope that wasn't overboard.

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Not at all, it's very useful to post your experiences. But I do wonder how you managed to lose SGOTM02 in 5 turns ... (if it's spoilerish, please don't tell - some of us are still playing).

I am very bad on the religious side of the game and so I have a question on your comments: why is founding a religion important for diplo victory? Did you manage to unite a large enough majority of civs behind your creed?

@zyxy: It's not at all spoilerish, they tell about it in the first spoiler thread which we are entitled to read, the condition was to have met all opponents. And 5 turns was a bit exaggerated...

It wasn't exaggerated by much. In our first turnset we popped that hut and out came mean warriors. 3 turns later we were wiped off the new lands. Sure, we tried up till Astronomy and realized that a cat rush wouldn't work, so we stopped. Our game was over in the first turnset, though...

Oh, and zyxy, I didn't actually win the diplo try. I built the UN but couldn't get enough votes, even giving lots of stuff away. I had stayed neutral in that game from the get-go, but the inevitable "you didn't help/trade/war/etc." still racked up and I couldn't overcome it. The guy with the biggest religion got voted in as Secretary. That's why I think diplo would need an early founding and then very aggressive spreading, which is expensive and lots of work.

B

Welcome (bienvenue) unkle and battchy. Great to have you in team Smurkz for SGOTM3. We are a very interesting team (advertisement). We even can play in some situations ”live online” as a team discussing the situation every turn after a screenshot is posted with the Europeans being awake around midnight. This we normally do at the start of an SGOTM. After a couple of turnsets then our frequency drops dramatically for no apparent reason. Only due to the fact that we are among the teams who do not need too much turns in the end, we somehow manage to finish the game in a final act of energy and devotion. We are always amongst the latest playing teams.

However keep throwing in any idea you have had about the game.(And readthe ideas of the other members)

Wow, a lot of you already investigated in detail, what to do in this situation. I must admit, that I had this time not much time to elaborate a plan by simulating. But I see that doesn’t matter, since my teammates have a good overview over the situation.

@battchy. Bad to hear of your early loss in SGOTM2. That violates a little rule no. 11: “Have fun!”, since I expect that you really haven’t had much fun there. The setup of this game might have been a little bit influenced by your game. It really seems to be impossible to lose this game early on, unless you really want so.

I agree that we have much time to decide on the vic condition. Even much more than in SGOTM1. So let’s not stress this topic too much ATM. It seems the island is very small, since only the northernmost tiles hold a hope for more useful land. So I think scout NW-NE should be the first move. Apart from that I cannot see something better than Settler E-E. I also judge the Floodplain more important than the crab in the West. The plain gives 3 food from the start and for the crab we need a workboat that will be lost after catching those animals. This game will be a research race, so we need the cottage there early on. Sailing however will be a little more important, since we might have a close race for the land on Monarch level with those 17 civs for the land around, if there is some island left without early inhabitants. In any case we need to know early and should sacrifice a Workboat for that. Only to support the obvious: There is no chance to found an early religion! Early war will also not be an issue this time. (Quite understandable after a conquest game.) So we can concentrate on our economy and relations. I somehow however suspect some neighbors with rich islands that could make me very greedy. So maybe we decide ourselves on going for a conquest. More is really not to tell from the beginning this time. So I wonder somehow, why they opened a pregame discussion this time ????

Hi MarcAurel !

I was pretty sure to be in one of the most interesting teams (I nearly read the SGOTM02 thread... wow... cannot wait for the game to start...). I also like to have other teammates in Europe playing late at night

I agree that not much can be said before opening the save on the 1st (oh boy...). Anyway one of the things that I thought was that we should try on turn 1 to know if the starting island is very very small (capital only), very small (capital+satellite city only) or if other spots could be found without sending settlers by sea.
I usually do not use them much, but the fact that a blue circle is visible E of the scout makes me wonder if another seafood would be available E.... Would Scout E then NW or NE be better to see what is available (size of the island+Eastern sea) ?

Just in case not everyone saw this in the SGOTM3 Maintenance thread.

AlanH said:

Ronnie1 said:

Can we now assume that HOF version .009 will be required for this game as well?

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Yes, for Civ4 vanilla, unless any unforseen circumstances arise. I did emphasise that this was likely. See post #3. There will also be a version .002 for Warlords.

The new versions and release notes are available here

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