Deity Culture Victory Guide

Hi guys,

I have done some updating of the post. See 2nd post in the thread for some number discussion as well as a basic 3-city trad "I NEED A RELIGION" opener.

I will eventually alter the original post as it appears to be very difficult to detour for Pisa and still manage to get Sistine/Uffizi/Louvre. I'm afraid it more or less require you to receive at least 2 early caravans from neighbor to speed up early tech. Pisa is typically built by AIs between T135-155 in my games and you need to hit education and be able to work a few specialists/maybe buy a university to beat the timeliness. As such, a more realistic "generic" strat should avoid the detour and go straight to Architechture. The harder decision will be between Scientific theory and archaeology. I need some additional playthroughs in bad conditions to make up my mind on this.

Also, I have mathed out Broadway vs saving all GM GPP for the Internet. I still need to solve an equation to figure out how little TPT you need to be doing for Broadway to become better than 1 extra GM within the same timeframe after the internet (200+300 points for GMs #2 and #3 instead of 500 points for the 5th GM after getting 3 on broadway and one immediately after teching the internet in both case). At the moment however, I am leaning towards saying outright that it will almost always be better not to build broadway unless you already know that your 3 faith GMs + 1 GPP GM will be enough to finish the game...but at that point it's not that broadway is better, its mostly that it doesn't matter.
 
Gave this another read, as I seem to kind of horribly fail on trying to win the sweden deity challenge with culture win.

What seem now superimportant to me is having desert folklore or somethings else to generate lot faith early to get these culture buildings up. Dont really see this in your guide.

Otherwise i see no way to keep up with AI faith generation, pagodas and cathedrals might be even gone .. and without those there is no way to achive these huge faith number u want/need later on not to speak of that it seems imposible/hard to get them up before they get expensive ...

What i m wondering and dont see in your guide is wheater/when its a good idea to fill those writer/mussician/artists guids and when and what to do with them.. I started filling them midgame but this leads to the next problem - food haeavy cap needed.
You plant those artists as landmarks?
now even less food on tiles ...
But u want fill guilds to possibly fill these slots with works from different eras?

Also i wonder why u suggest to go 3 into piety but not 5 if u starte piety allready there is no real reason not get 2 more imo. Even when winning without these +2 tourism thing can work it surly doesnt hurt espacially as it comes kinda early and adds up?

Do u think deity cult win can work without desert folklore start land? Or faith wonder close.
Can u show? Maybe try the sweden challenge (where there are even few desert tiles)

With my exxperience from this 1 game tourism win seem just brokken and way harder as other winning ways and espacially land dependent to achive to me. I dont even want imagine what happens when the build order gets dirupted by an ai attack - there is so much stuff u want/need have ..
 
Thank you so much for this guide! I'm relatively new to Civ, and though I've won military victories on Emperor, I've yet to try my hand on a culture win. Going to give this a try!:goodjob:
 
Gave this another read, as I seem to kind of horribly fail on trying to win the sweden deity challenge with culture win.

What seem now superimportant to me is having desert folklore or somethings else to generate lot faith early to get these culture buildings up. Dont really see this in your guide.

Otherwise i see no way to keep up with AI faith generation, pagodas and cathedrals might be even gone .. and without those there is no way to achive these huge faith number u want/need later on not to speak of that it seems imposible/hard to get them up before they get expensive ...

What i m wondering and dont see in your guide is wheater/when its a good idea to fill those writer/mussician/artists guids and when and what to do with them.. I started filling them midgame but this leads to the next problem - food haeavy cap needed.
You plant those artists as landmarks?
now even less food on tiles ...
But u want fill guilds to possibly fill these slots with works from different eras?

Also i wonder why u suggest to go 3 into piety but not 5 if u starte piety allready there is no real reason not get 2 more imo. Even when winning without these +2 tourism thing can work it surly doesnt hurt espacially as it comes kinda early and adds up?

Do u think deity cult win can work without desert folklore start land? Or faith wonder close.
Can u show? Maybe try the sweden challenge (where there are even few desert tiles)

With my exxperience from this 1 game tourism win seem just brokken and way harder as other winning ways and espacially land dependent to achive to me. I dont even want imagine what happens when the build order gets dirupted by an ai attack - there is so much stuff u want/need have ..

I gave a quick shot at DC28. The start just does not lend itself to CV at all. It is extremely rough to pull a CV without a very strong capital and there is just nowhere to settle to have enough early growth on this map. I'm not saying it's impossible but it would require lots of luck. I'll give a shot at it again tomorrow without the piety opener and just use the pantheon and pray that I snag 5th religion but I doubt it.

My first ride I stopped around T200, I was lining up my first faith GE to rush-buy the Louvre (extremely slow paced science from lack of growth in all 3 cities, even though I had +10% pantheon and +15% swords into plowshare in capital to attempt to offset the lack of food). Poland runaway from my bribes -_- built it about 7 turns before I could rush it and I had already given up on Uffizi for more late game wonders. It was winnable by science at that point, that's about it.

I don't think DF is that important. You primarily just need to catch "5th religion" so as to farm and plant 3-4 GPs by around industrial. If Messiah enhancer is taken, just plant the 2nd bonus and don't enhance. Even without piety, 3 settled GP + grand temple + 2-3 shrines & temples make up 47 FPT after freedom. It means it will take more or less 120 turns to get the required 5k faith assuming no CSs kicked in. With that in mind, it does obviously boost a game by an absurd margin. It has always been and will always be.

You don't need any religious buildings with the "catch 5th faith" objective. You just ought to have a mean to produce 5k faith between industrial and the end of the game. If anything, I simply purchase the buildings in my satellite cities based on whatever my neighbors spread to me. The issue when not catching 5th religion is that you can't produce GPs and can't get grand temple and that's the alternative to a start without a good FPT pantheon.

However, the more I work the strategy out on significantly more crippled starts, the more I am leaning towards accepting your statement in that other thread that CV is significantly harder than other strats. Requiring a slightly better start is one thing but it seems to require more than just that.

Trying to read back through your post to make sure I answer everything..

Landmarks are no longer GAs planted. They are built from archeologists. Basically any ancient ruin can be made a landmark so any such ruin within 3 tile of any of your city should be made a landmark instead of an artifact. It REALLY blows if you RNG 0 such landmarks. I'm used to catching 1 per city other than the capital sometimes +1 although rarely within 3 tiles of capital which gets double dip benefit from NVC.

I only suggest 2 piety at first. Your total CPT output will dictate if you eventually fill the leftover 4 points later in the game. Filling piety by no means competes with rationalism and as you enter renaissance you kinda need to hit 2 rationalism, explo opener and aesthetic opener which is taxing enough.

Guild allocation. Most Wonders ask for GP from the same era aside from the louvre which is extremely easy to achieve so typically, you want to line the first GP at the start of an era so as to hopefully grab a 2nd by the end of the era. However, in a weaker opener where you likely won't catch more than Sistine /Uffizi/louvre "and even then", it means that the GWs will only fill slots without theming bonuses so it does not matter.

Museum Bonuses will typically be gained from artifacts so really the only GAMW you should put effort to pop multiple during the same era would be great artists ideally 2 from the same era for Sistine. When they pop is more a matter of how much food you can spare to work the specialists which was why I mentioned outright the need for a strong food capital in the original post (although I may not have put enough emphasis on this).

GMs, I usually don't build the guild or at very least don't work the GM slots until modern if I shoot for broadway and not at all until shortly before the internet otherwise. They contribute more to victory by allowing you to target a specific runaway as concert tours and specifically if you can't achieve 5k faith, saving the GM cost to start at 100 in atomic era will be your only chance left to catch up not having to pray that spam next turn will win you before some AI launches.

So long story short, work GAs and GWs slots as soon as you can afford the growth or hammer halt. In poor starts, I would likely set each in satellite cities and go for crazy science in capital and simply not work the scientist slots in those cities until later. In outstanding growth capitals, getting both GA and GW in capital means further science from NC/secularism as well as increased CPT from hermitage later in the game but I guess that will be hard to achieve on most starts.

I definitely think that it is achievable without a faith wonder or DF but I am slowly leaning towards believing that it requires some FPT pantheon to catch late 5th religion - at least to be somewhat competitive with turn-to-victory. Sure you can eventually win without a religion and little faith but it makes a hard VC even harder.

I've been playing around a little with another alternative slow opener involving ToA so as to pop a GE slightly before universities GS happens (or together although last time I tried that I somehow didn't get both GPs - I don't know if it was me missing a rounding issue and either happening 1 turn earlier or if they "fixed" multipops).

As I've mentioned a few times, I'll iterate until I can figure out a somewhat generic solution but currently the piety opener alternative means no early patronage and realistically you need a very strong growth capital with some decent barb quest and other quests RNG with culture/maritime CSs to offset the loss of mass friendships.

I'm sure we will come up with something shortly. Glory had already brought up a couple things to look into through replies in this thread.

Hope I've answered or hinted some of your questions.
 
ya thx I like your answers.

Obviously I went wrong in some ways in my game - even when doing overly great (kind of outteching ai) - But with only 4 cities pressuring and only 30 f/t religion/faith still didnt really get me anywhere ..

And faith is the ressource u just cant really pimp with tools ... Maybe slots in temples d fix this problem a bit ...
 
ya thx I like your answers.

Obviously I went wrong in some ways in my game - even when doing overly great (kind of outteching ai) - But with only 4 cities pressuring and only 30 f/t religion/faith still didnt really get me anywhere ..

And faith is the ressource u just cant really pimp with tools ... Maybe slots in temples d fix this problem a bit ...

I just won a 3 city Immortal Shoshone, with the notable loss of Uffizi to a glitch - it seems it is NOT unlocked by the tree, although it supposed to be. No matter, I eventually liberated it from the German capital, along with plenty of great works from all across his nation.

I was making plenty of faith from the desert patheon but did some massive alliance work and had about 10k faith at the end saved up. Got the liberty GM, as well as killed off Germany, which was much smarter than having to face their culture.
 
I just won a 3 city Immortal Shoshone, with the notable loss of Uffizi to a glitch - it seems it is NOT unlocked by the tree, although it supposed to be. No matter, I eventually liberated it from the German capital, along with plenty of great works from all across his nation.
Did you mean that you can't build the Uffizi although you unlocked it or did you mean that German built it even though the diplo screen doesn't say he unlocked Aesthetics? If it's the latter, the Diplo screen doesn't show which trees that have been unlocked unless it's got at least one policy in it.
 
Did you mean that you can't build the Uffizi although you unlocked it or did you mean that German built it even though the diplo screen doesn't say he unlocked Aesthetics? If it's the latter, the Diplo screen doesn't show which trees that have been unlocked unless it's got at least one policy in it.

Really now, news to me. Well that could be the case, although unless it was unlocked specifically to build that wonder I don't think it is, because he never ever got another policy in that tree.
 
Why would you prefer Broadway over the Eiffel Tower, they both give the same tourism, but Tower gives it all at once, and without needing GMs.
 
Hi guys,

I have done some updating of the post. See 2nd post in the thread for some number discussion as well as a basic 3-city trad "I NEED A RELIGION" opener.

I am somehow not seeing that section. Link please?

I think I am doing ok if I manage to get 44 f/t but then again, I find it hard to make a play for key wonders due to the risk of going all out for them.
 
ya thx I like your answers.

Obviously I went wrong in some ways in my game - even when doing overly great (kind of outteching ai) - But with only 4 cities pressuring and only 30 f/t religion/faith still didnt really get me anywhere ..

And faith is the ressource u just cant really pimp with tools ... Maybe slots in temples d fix this problem a bit ...

If you manage to outtech AIs in early renaissance and hit some random leftover wonders (even in satellite cities), you can probably win by T320 or so with just GMs from a late built guild. It blows though because in most these cases you could pretty much have won by science earlier or diplomacy ridiculously earlier. Well unless Alex is the stupid runaway.
 
I am somehow not seeing that section. Link please?

I think I am doing ok if I manage to get 44 f/t but then again, I find it hard to make a play for key wonders due to the risk of going all out for them.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=501996

2nd post was added recently. I'm still iterating on start deficient openers as to more or less find delimiters for a "bare minimum". I only got Sistine and louvre this last game as far as real culture wonder but had my cap been 6-7 pop bigger (for production) when I entered modern and did not miss out Eiffel/the -10% sp wonder and later SoL because I had been so short production for everything else, I believe the game would've been salvageable.

CV is SO taxing on ones empire during renaissance/industrial when you have no GE to rush wonder and if you are not yet first in tech already you have to detour to archeology before scientific theory to get a fair share of relics.

Anyway I swear it's easier to do as OCC petra than with a decent 4 city trad with significantly more science just because the capital needs so much hammers and thus growth for CV to work.

I'm starting to believe continents or small continents might be more favorable just to use early cargo ships to your capital.
 
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=501996

2nd post was added recently. I'm still iterating on start deficient openers as to more or less find delimiters for a "bare minimum". I only got Sistine and louvre this last game as far as real culture wonder but had my cap been 6-7 pop bigger (for production) when I entered modern and did not miss out Eiffel/the -10% sp wonder and later SoL because I had been so short production for everything else, I believe the game would've been salvageable.

CV is SO taxing on ones empire during renaissance/industrial when you have no GE to rush wonder and if you are not yet first in tech already you have to detour to archeology before scientific theory to get a fair share of relics.

Anyway I swear it's easier to do as OCC petra than with a decent 4 city trad with significantly more science just because the capital needs so much hammers and thus growth for CV to work.

I'm starting to believe continents or small continents might be more favorable just to use early cargo ships to your capital.

Do you really need to spend time digging things up though. For my 3 city Shoshone game (which turned into like an 8 city later with puppets and late game annexing of the german capital), I had more than enough artifacts with simply looting Germany/Portugal and liberating the Mayans/Portugal.
 
Just finished 4 games following this guide. I play on Emperor tho.

#1 Game: France, Small Continents, Standard Size and Speed - CV in turn 366.

- Quite the peaceful game, theming bonus is nice, won before internet. India was the runaway but got nuked with 3 GM for victory.

#2 Game: Shoshones, Large Pangaea, Standard - DV in turn 372

- The map was bad, didn't realize soon enough, so played on. Bad growth and hammer output in capitol. Bailed out on Diplo victory.

#3 Game Shoshones Large Pangaea, Standard - DV in turn 381

- The map was awesome, I'd almost say legendary. 4 Salt + marble, flood plains, desert + petra, lots of hills, Natural mountainrange with chokepoints for defense :goodjob:

But... :sad:
- Dido DOW me early, didn't even know she was a warmonger AI :confused:. I waste gold on units to assault her for white peace. Gold I should have spent on Religious CS, I only had 3,5 k faith upon teching internet.
- After digging up a second artifact from Askia after promising not to, Shaka and his Impi train and my good neighbor Askia DOW me. I detour in the policy tree and get the 6 Foreign legion units. Askia surrenders me a city which I sell to Dido, but Shaka wants lux for peace, and I end up in a unhappy empire.
- At last it's 1 turn left to Diplo victory, 15 turns to Science victory, and I'm tempted to gamble on Cultural victory, even tho the runaway Siam has 90k culture, and I'm about 25k behind. 2 GM are on their way to blast him for another 16k Tourism.
- The next turn, Dido and Siam DOW me for enacting world religion. My GM is obviously locked out so I bail on DV :(

#4 Game: Poland, Small Continents, Huge, Standard - CV in turn 356

- Not the best map ever, no petra, bad satellites but doable. Was isolated with Russia until Astronomy

It was in my last game I figured the huge difference between cargo boats and caravans. I think its hard to keep up with building all the infrastructure + wonders on Pangaea. With coastal cities however, I earn so much gold that I just rushbuy whatever I need. I think small continents is much better than Pangaea because coastal cities is just so much better. The cons of small continents tho is that you might get isolated and miss out on early RA which will probably slow you down. You will catch up fast on emperor tho, when you get your cargo ships up and running. Also, small continents tend to be more peaceful.
 
I'm sorry for asking a potentially ignorant question, but can someone explain the idea of amassing 5k faith after the industrial era? Why is this done? How can you purchase GMs without completing the Aesthetics tree or by going full Piety? Thanks!
 
I'm sorry for asking a potentially ignorant question, but can someone explain the idea of amassing 5k faith after the industrial era? Why is this done? How can you purchase GMs without completing the Aesthetics tree or by going full Piety? Thanks!

Almost all the time, you finish aesthetics for culture games (for double theme bonus finsher perk and policies that provide lots of cultures).
 
I'm sorry for asking a potentially ignorant question, but can someone explain the idea of amassing 5k faith after the industrial era? Why is this done? How can you purchase GMs without completing the Aesthetics tree or by going full Piety? Thanks!

As glory mentioned, for CV you will almost always finish aesthetics. There is no need for full piety to get that kind of faith output however. It can be done with only 2pts and the 5th religion by planting GPs (or, with some luck that AIs don't take CSs over, with 4 faith CSs on the map that you keep as friends/allies on and off focusing allying investment in modern+)

The difficult part usually is not to complete aesthetics when striving for CV, it is to manage to output that much faith as a safeguard against potential runaway culture civs. With good science, it is reasonably manageable with only 2 faith purchased GMs (2500 faith total).
 
This game is an example that shows what you should do when several AIs go wonder-whoring and go aesthetics. If you try peaceful culture victory at deity and that happens, it is pretty difficult to win unless you got a great start, as 1. they get wonders that you need, 2. they have high culture output and it's hard to catch up, 3. world congress resolutions like world fair tend to help them even more, 4. You cannot 'steal' enough artifacts from other civs as they got them first.

Strategy:

Start with usual tradition 3-4 cities and get full tradition - pat open - consulates - rati open - secularism. This tree is extremely useful and applicable in most cases (in fact, works well except when you want fast CB rush).

When you enter renaissance and meet all civs, you can see what policies they got and who got which wonders. If there are 2 or more civs that chose aesthetics tree and got lots of wonders, you probably want to change your plan of peaceful CV. For example, if AIs take Globe, Pisa, and Sistine even before you have a chance to get them, you really want to get those wonders "back".

In such cases, just beeline for dynamite. Forget about culture stuff for a while. Don't even think of archaelogy. We are going to dig artifacts and great works from other civ's cities, not from the ground. For continent and archipelago maps, get 7-8 galleass and upgrade them to frigates and go. This is usually much easier than arty rush.

Note that AIs will move their stuff to other cities when they are going to lose cities. Thus, you need to capture most of the cities. You will get some warmonger hit - make sure you bribe lots of wars during the game, as usual. One good way to get smaller hit is to liberate CS. bribe war with the CS ally and AI will take that CS - you liberate it, and you get huge reduction of warmonger status. In many cases you can do this 2-3 times - then you don't get warmonger problem even though you take almost all cities of 2 civs.

Even if you cannot do this trick, make sure you get all important cities and get most of his stuff. you can check how many he still got by checking culture victory progress screen. For example, he got 3 cities left and still making 28 tpt, you know what to do.

While warring, slowly build culture buildings. No archaelogists yet - just make units and buildings. When you conquer cities, move great works/artifacts to your main cities at least until the resistance ends. Sell/give/raze non-important cities.

War gives you two great advantages: 1. you cripple potential culture runaways, 2. you get lots of wonders and great works/artifacts. For hammer-wise, it's a lot more effective to build units and take cities than to make archaelogists.

Rest of the game is as usual - you get hotels later than usual but it does not matter as you got tons of great works/artifacts. oxford radio for idealogy if needed. beeline internet.

For the sample game, I won at the turn I could get internet as 2-3 GM bombs were enough to end the game. You can see at the screenshot that I can choose the policy and that is rati finisher - I burned 3 GS the turn before to get penicillin, ecology, and telecom. (I clicked internet later, after choosing "one more turn", and tpt went up to 770) and you can see that my cap does not have any meaningful wonder in it.. the only wonder I built before plastics was oracle, I think.

Let me know if you got comments/questions.
 

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Hi Glory,

While I totally agree that sometimes there are just no other options left available, on non water maps, if the culture runaways/wonder whores are across the map and you need to plow through everyone else to get their cities/artifacts, you are right back to the point that you would've/could've won by domination earlier anyway.

I also still expect the culture war spoils to deprecate over patches because currently, CV dips significantly more into war spoils than any other VC.

Like you could reasonably use all your GW and early GAs like a SV to bulb rationalism earlier and just push for a bomber or artillery rush completely disregarding CV all game along and winning CV simply by plundering 3 or so civs' worth of GAMW all of this whilsts beating the clock faster than a regular peaceful CV even in crazy good conditions from late game scaling.

Anyway, thanks for posting this, hopefully it will be an indicator for competitive player as a good or wise point to take the decision between attempting a struggling peaceful or going offensive but in the long run, I'm still stubborn enough to iterate over slight tweaks to make average starts work for peaceful, be that through going wide for more landmarks or figuring out a good timeliness to shift the tide with internal trade routes.
 
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