armaggedon counter - the punishement for the evils

AS we all know AC is evil thing and pushers of AC are bad bad guys. Dr Evil definitely envies them.

But...it works contrary to its purpose - except for sheaim, of course - all evil and neutral suffer but it has no effect on good civs.

For instance - in my games - as a good civ - there is nothing better than build Prophecy of Ragnarök and punish evils with rising AC. As we all know, hell terrain has no business in good lands.

I simply find in deeply ironical that in the good alignement hands is this destructive mechanism far more efficient than in the hands of evil civs. I do not mention even neutral civs who are punished by good civilizations in the same way.

Something must be done. Thats is the work for modders, right?

my simple proposion: block prophecy of rangarök for good alignement in the same way as Altar of Luoannatar is blocked for evils.

I've also been rather confused to the workings of the AC. Nearly every evil Civ has a way of increasing the AC, but barely any of them have any benefit from it. Quite the contrary, they get hit the hardest.

If this were a "real" Good vs Evil battle, I'd be good and let the Evils do their thing. Once the AC reaches sufficiently high levels, their lands get crushed and the Goodies can simply waltz in and Sanctify the AC down. It seems to me that the Goodies should prevent the rise of the AC at all costs, rather than wait it out.

Gaminic said:

I've also been rather confused to the workings of the AC. Nearly every evil Civ has a way of increasing the AC, but barely any of them have any benefit from it. Quite the contrary, they get hit the hardest.

If this were a "real" Good vs Evil battle, I'd be good and let the Evils do their thing. Once the AC reaches sufficiently high levels, their lands get crushed and the Goodies can simply waltz in and Sanctify the AC down. It seems to me that the Goodies should prevent the rise of the AC at all costs, rather than wait it out.

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thats exactly what I'm implying. its very annoying for svaltalfar as evil civ: hands are full of sanctifying and other forest preserving duties. no wonder I'm switcing to order with svarts only to get good alignment and then back to FoL - just to be sure that hell terrain won't affect me in the future....

unnecessary micromanagement....

I definitely agree with what you guys are saying.

This came up in both RifE and WM forums in the same day? Odd.

Anyway. My take on the subject, make of it what you will. Aspects of it cannot be applied to WM, as it lacks Ethical Alignments.

Valkrionn said:

Not in that way, no. Hell spreads to Evil first because it is their actions that cause it.

However... How about this.

• Hell terrain rebalanced to become an actual malus.
  • Currently, it really is not. It spawns demons, but that's easily countered; Only real negative is that your resources change, unless you are Cualli or Svart in which case you're screwed.
• Hell may always spread into AV lands. Sacrifice the Weak nullifies some negative effects of the terrain.
  • Ashen Veil should be a way of dealing with it, but it also makes you more vulnerable; Play with fire, you might get burned.
• Relative AC values for Hell spread:
  • AC 0 - AV
  • AC 10 - Unowned
  • AC 30 - Evil
  • AC 50 - Neutral
  • AC 70 - Good
• Law/Chaos axis factored into Hell terrain spread.
  • This is mostly to create a difference between Lawful Evil (take over the world) and Chaotic Evil (destroy the world).
  • Ethical Alignment Effects:
    • Lawful - +10 AC required to spread in your lands.
    • Neutral - Nothing
    • Chaotic - -10 AC required to spread in your lands.
  • Net effect: While Hell spread is still mostly reliant on Moral Alignment, Ethical Alignment is factored in to create differences within each Moral Alignment block. For example, Hell will spread at the same speed to Lawful Evil lands as it does Chaotic lands. Hell will spread faster to FoL than RoK, to Empy than Order.
  • Note that the main Cualli leader is already Lawful Evil.
• Hell Features added.
  • Hellish Forests, Jungles, Kelp, etc.
  • Not only do they keep civs such as Svarts and Cualli from being screwed, they provide visual indicators of hell's spread through terrains that otherwise do not change.

This was mostly planned already, though I just thought of the Law/Chaos effect.

Overall, this means that eventually EVERYONE has to deal with Hell.

Actual list for hell spread:

• Lawful Good - 80
• Good - 70
• Chaotic Good - 60
• Lawful - 60
• Neutral - 50
• Chaotic - 40
• Lawful Evil - 40
• Evil - 30
• Chaotic Evil - 20
• Ashen Veil - 0

Click to expand...

scutarii said:

my simple proposion: block prophecy of rangarök for good alignement in the same way as Altar of Luoannatar is blocked for evils.

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I dont necessarily agree with everything else written here but I most assuredly back this suggestion.

And adding a multi tiered alter of SOME sort for evil races to pursue an alter victory and get the exp bonus for their Disciples

Breez said:

I dont necessarily agree with everything else written here but I most assuredly back this suggestion.

And adding a multi tiered alter of SOME sort for evil races to pursue an alter victory and get the exp bonus for their Disciples

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Yeah, just renaming the Altar and leaving the rest sort of equal is sufficient. I know religion/disciples/priests go hand in hand with "Holy", but the lore in this game has enough examples of Unholy religion and priests. I really hate not being able to get any of the nice boni the altars offer.

I agree in part and disagree in part.

PoR should definitely be evil only -- there is no reason for good or neutral to want to build it. Alternatively, (for a more complicated mechanism) I would have it buildable by anyone, but have it convert you to evil and kick out any good religions (incl. holy cities).

My other main opinion on this topic is that high AC is way way to benign for both good and evil. The one-time effects at AC 30, 90 and 100 occur once and then big deal. The world should be a pretty ugly place at AC 100.

The OP's main point is that high AC is worse for evil than good (with the exception of Sheaim, of course). I'm certainly on board with the idea of making it uglier for good civs. However, I do like the idea that true evil employs "spite". Hurting others to benefit yourself is just "predation", probably neutral in in FFH alignments. Hurting others at a cost to yourself is "spite", and this is (and should be) the basic idea of the AC. The fact that high AC is pretty mild (and basically inconsequential for good civs) is absolutely a flaw.

I think it would make more sense if the terrain changes were like now, as evil lands in fantasy look corrupted while good lands do not (think of LotR for example), but the Riders were focussed on good civs as those are the ones who are trying to prevent the end of the world. (Though I don't know if the AI can be programmed to do so)

Pazyryk said:

I agree in part and disagree in part.

PoR should definitely be evil only -- there is no reason for good or neutral to want to build it. Alternatively, (for a more complicated mechanism) I would have it buildable by anyone, but have it convert you to evil and kick out any good religions (incl. holy cities).

My other main opinion on this topic is that high AC is way way to benign for both good and evil. The one-time effects at AC 30, 90 and 100 occur once and then big deal. The world should be a pretty ugly place at AC 100.

The OP's main point is that high AC is worse for evil than good (with the exception of Sheaim, of course). I'm certainly on board with the idea of making it uglier for good civs. However, I do like the idea that true evil employs "spite". Hurting others to benefit yourself is just "predation", probably neutral in in FFH alignments. Hurting others at a cost to yourself is "spite", and this is (and should be) the basic idea of the AC. The fact that high AC is pretty mild (and basically inconsequential for good civs) is absolutely a flaw.

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Pazyryk,

I have great appreciation for your elaboration of "spite" and "predtion" and if I may add "despair", very Steven R Donaldson and also very appropriate......
I think your assessment and suggestions are "spot on", the dark side should be very dark, and the light side should be very bright, and the grey riders should have to make and meet their unknown destinies....... whichever side that they choose.... or both...

I want it stress again that under current system good side has no incetives for keeping AC low - 4 riders=new equipement for your heroes.

give for instance to elohim additional trading/happiness bonuses for keeping AC down - its totally different game!


and for evil...to pump up AC only because of "thats what evil do" sorry, but its pathetic.

selfsacrificing for AC boosting may be, but bonuses for evil nonsheaim civs are worth of consideration, I guess.

i actually like this approach:
-give good civilizations a bonus when the ac is low (instead of a penalty when it is high)
-give evil civilization a bonus when it is high

How about starting the AC at 50 and having the each side struggle to move it around and giving boni accordingly?
There is already the Stigmata boost, giving extra strength according to the AC. How about having it go both ways? Evil Civs get a boost for every point above 50, while Good Civs get a boost for every point below 50.

The name "armageddon" might seem a bit weird then, but in the end Basium isn't really a stabilizing force either, is he? Either the world is destroyed by corrupting demons, or the world is destroyed by purifying angels who have a very wide definition of the word "sinner".

It would also give the Neutrals a place in this battle. Rather than just dicking around, they try to stabilize the world: AC going too high? Bash in some demon skulls. AC going too low? Go poke the Elohim with a stick. This can also be reflected in diplomacy boosts, giving a higher multiplier for "you're good/evil" according to the AC.

Here's an idea... Why not have armageddon affect Good civs? You know, instead of the whole "Let's make armageddon a good thing for Evil! We can fill it with fluffy bunnies and pretty flowers..."

Yeah, I know, but you get my point. Armageddon should not be a beneficial thing like that. The actions taken that lead to Armageddon should be beneficial, but the consequences should not be. They should be something you can deal with, but that hurt you. I am entirely for causing Good civs to deal with it as well, though.

Valkrionn said:

The actions taken that lead to Armageddon should be beneficial, but the consequences should not be.

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That's a good point. For most "Evil" Civs (the ones that are just plain evil but don't necessarily want the world to BURRRRN and such), the AC is a result, not a goal. They don't want to raise the AC, they just want to kill bunnies. Sure, killing bunnies raises the AC, but it's worth it. Until a certain point.

So yeah, that does shed some light on "why are only the Evils affected by the AC", but it does raise the question as to why any non-Sheiam Civ would ever use Prophecy of Ragnarok and similar things. All it does is raise the AC, which they don't want. On the other hand, being able to summon powerful units to help defeat your enemies is something you'd want, even if you risk putting the world to flames.

since this is int he wildmana forums, it should just reduce mana upkeep for dark overland spells and summons. reduce it a percent for every point on the counter.

I agree that AC should be a bad thing for everyone and more so for evil civs. But evil civs should have nice things to do that will benefit them as well as increasing the AC.

I think hell terrain spread shouldn't be restricted by arbitrary thresholds. Rather, i'd make it proportional to the AC, with a different multiplier for each alignment.
For example at AC 1:
2% chance of spread to neighboring tile under evil control
1% chance of spread to neighboring tile under neutral control
0.5% chance of spread to neighboring tile under good control

This way good and neutral civs can stave off the effects easier, but can't just ignore the AC until it reaches a certain level. (Modifiers obviously would have to be tweaked for balance)
Hell terrain should be a bit harder to get rid off. Currently it's easier to remove than the construction of the most primitive improvement.

Valkrion said:

Hell terrain rebalanced to become an actual malus.
Currently, it really is not. It spawns demons, but that's easily countered; Only real negative is that your resources change, unless you are Cualli or Svart in which case you're screwed.
Hell may always spread into AV lands. Sacrifice the Weak nullifies some negative effects of the terrain.
Ashen Veil should be a way of dealing with it, but it also makes you more vulnerable; Play with fire, you might get burned.

Click to expand...

I like this idea. Maybe have sacrifice the weak eliminate the reduced tile yields, but not the odds of demon spawns. With your entire territory covered in hell terrain, you'll constantly have a significant portion of your troops occupied with showing uninvited guests the door and babysitting workers.

Increasing the AC should be the price for evil deeds, and not confer bonuses on its own (aside from the Sheadim). I'd also add more ways of increasing the AC. Pop rushing immediately comes to mind...

I'd either make the Prophecy of Ragnarok a Sheadim national wonder, or have it hand out stigmata promotions as well.

Till said:

I think hell terrain spread shouldn't be restricted by arbitrary thresholds. Rather, i'd make it proportional to the AC, with a different multiplier for each alignment.
For example at AC 1:
2% chance of spread to neighboring tile under evil control
1% chance of spread to neighboring tile under neutral control
0.5% chance of spread to neighboring tile under good control

This way good and neutral civs can stave off the effects easier, but can't just ignore the AC until it reaches a certain level. (Modifiers obviously would have to be tweaked for balance)
Hell terrain should be a bit harder to get rid off. Currently it's easier to remove than the construction of the most primitive improvement.

Click to expand...

That may actually be a better way of doing it, yes.

Till said:

I like this idea. Maybe have sacrifice the weak eliminate the reduced tile yields, but not the odds of demon spawns. With your entire territory covered in hell terrain, you'll constantly have a significant portion of your troops occupied with showing uninvited guests the door and babysitting workers.

Increasing the AC should be the price for evil deeds, and not confer bonuses on its own (aside from the Sheadim). I'd also add more ways of increasing the AC. Pop rushing immediately comes to mind...

I'd either make the Prophecy of Ragnarok a Sheadim national wonder, or have it hand out stigmata promotions as well.

Click to expand...

I was actually thinking of having Sacrifice the Weak grant some xp based on nearby hell. The weak are dead, the few units left will be strong.

I think I would rather see all civs effected by Hell terrain but have global enchantments that can fight or increases its spread in your territory.

I think it should be detrimental to everyone. zBeing carried to Hell in a hand basket is NOT a good thing.