Research help needed - Siam Split

I'm planning a Siam split with the Rattanakosin, Ayutthaya, Sukhothai and Thonburi kingdoms. But like always, i'm struggling with research and decisions on what the uniques should be, and how best to represent the country.

I'm going to split this post into each kingdom and explain whats missing, and ontop of what i'm finding i'd like to ask if any good researchers would be able to help me find the missing pieces.

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Rattanakosin Kingdom
Leader: King Rama V

UA: Possibly something based around the reforms that helped create modern Thailand. Industry?

UU/UB/UI: unsure

UU: Unsure


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Ayutthaya Kingdom
Leader: Naresuan

UA: Military?

UU: Naresuan's Elephant (Taken from the original Siam Civ)

UU/UB/UI: Possibly a second UU, the Sua Pa Maew Morn scout corps, a mid/late game scout?

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Sukhothai Kingdom

The same as Siam from Civ V except for the UU.
Leader, UA and UB will probably remain and same.

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Thonburi
Leader: Taksin

UA: Military expansion? Taksin was well known for doing a lot of things, but territory expansion via war was a main thing.

UU/UB/UI: Unsure

UU: Unsure


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Any help would be greatly appreciated since trying to research 4 civs of the same country is a painful process since it all gets muddled up. This thread should allow me to keep track and allow others to offer up help if they're willing.
Credits when the mod is released obviously!

INB4 Poom...

I made this design a while ago, it's a little rough around the edges, but I think it could lead to interesting gameplay, so it's a good starting point:

Hoop Thrower said:

Siam - Mongkut

UA: Father of Science and Technology: Science generated from other civilizations capitals are added to the yields of your capital as long as you've got an embassy in that civilization and said civilization is at war.

UB: Astronomical Pavilion: Replaces Observatory. No Mountain Prerequisite. +10% Science. 1 Scientist Specialist. Generates Science equal to the Culture Generated in City.

UU: Elephant Artillery: Replaces Artillery. Requires no Set Up and starts with the Woodsman Promotion. Generates Culture when stationed in cities during peace. Costs 1 extra maintenance.

Click to expand...

Hoop Thrower said:

INB4 Poom...

I made this design a while ago, it's a little rough around the edges, but I think it could lead to interesting gameplay, so it's a good starting point:

Click to expand...

I was definetley interested in having Rama V as the leader, but maybe your idea will work better. I do like it, if i can work out how the code works.

Finally...

While this forum didn't have username mention feature. I somehow summoned here.

In topic : I also prefer King Mongkut as a leader, although King Chulalongkorn (Rama V) also warrant his own civ, ala Napoleon III. Both are great kings that oversaw different phrase of country's modernization and save Siam from White Man's burden thing and ultimately Western colonization.

Knowing native language and being educated about this (in 12 years of school) should help a load in research.

King Narai of Ayutthaya also warrant his own split civ.


This is Thai common name for each king, it would broaden your selection when you search for his pictures.

All Rattanakosin kings can be searched with รัชกาลที่ N (lit. Nth Reign) - Mongkut is Rama IV รัชกาลที่ 4 and Chulalongkorn is Rama V รัชกาลที่ 5
You can also search his name as known in Thailand พระจอมเกล้าเจ้าอยู่หัว (Mongkut) and พระจุลจอมเกล้าเจ้าอยู่หัว (Chulalongkorn) - They're not called like this but searching these phrase should yield results.

Phra Naresuan - พระนเรศวร (There are Thai movie depicting his "legend" - Better not use anything from movie. Trust me.)

Phrachao Taksin - พระเจ้าตากสิน (or Phrachao Tak - พระเจ้าตา&#3585

I am now confused. In 1782, Rattanakosin was estabilished. In 1939, Siam's name changed to Thailand. While the name itself was older than that, when was the country offically called Siam? Or was it never the country's name, just used to refer to the period?

Well, Siam is the name that everyone call a unified cosmopolitan kingdom ruled by Thai kings, consist of people of various ethnicity, namely
Tai, Chinese, Khmer, Laos, Mon, Malayan, Vietnamese, Indian and European.

When "nationalism" kicks in right before WW2. The axis-aligned folk gain power and propose to call Thailand, because... well, land of Tai/Thai.

Origin of the word is also supposedly derogatory terms either meant "brown-skinned people" or "barbaric robber" according to neighbor language, or maybe "equal" according to Thai's theory. Then, Chinese call us Siem-luo, Burmese and Malays call us Siem (one syllable), and Westerner who later arrive take our name from them

BTW, Could anyone contact Sukritact?

I won't sure if he... well, there are some qualms for Thai people when do thing like this. I don't expect him to contribute to this, but I do need second opinion about this mod and how it will be received from fellow Thai. and he's pretty much only Thai whom I would comfortably discuss about this project. Actually, another one will be Mount&Blade modder called Rasiya. He basically oversaw a solid overhaul mod depicting Southeast Asia in 16th century called Suvarnabhumi Mahayuth - check their Facebook page for concept art and things. It's worth checking out.

Oh, and also - Thai traditional musics (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PQJvPr9Sag)

So, as I expected, there never really was a country called Siam, much like the Kingdom of Bali. Well, in that case, I think this split should also have a modern Thailand civ.
By the way, could you expand on why is there so much controversy about this kind of thing?

Also, another thing I should mention: the icon of Rattanakosin has colors that are very similar to, well, a bunch of other civs, including a vanilla one. It would probably be better if you used the colors seen in the flags with the elephant, which are more unique. In that case, you could also switch the icon to the elepahant, but I don't think its necessary.

Well, I presume it's gotta be due to the Thai national identity being some sort of muddly thing that may raise a few, ahem, complications. Particularly lately with all these anti-monarchist coups and whatnot in the country.

MODERN Thailand? kurwa. I suppose there are someone else who plan to do that, if I remember correctly.

Well, about controversial thing. My opinion, someone who see it as a big hinder of our mindset, is that they regard the history as sacred , and by sacred I mean sometimes sacred to the point of untouchable.

Also, trace of chauvinism still remain on the society. History that was teached in school mostly views ourselves from "acceptable" view, which exclude accounts from neighboring nations.

"You're not Thai" is a moderate insult. Name any neighboring nation around us and speak it in a condensing tone is also an insult, and if they feel that you're insulting their identity or nationality even if you actually wasn't, give them few minutes and they will find a way to insult yours, in bad English.

By they, I mean the vocal troll and less savory people you will find in the internet.

Read further : My thought of Our "history" - https://www.reddit.com/r/civbattler...ggest_face_in_the_game_which_i_always/cwil0t8

Hoop Thrower said:

Well, I presume it's gotta be due to the Thai national identity being some sort of muddly thing that may raise a few, ahem, complications. Particularly lately with all these anti-monarchist coups and whatnot in the country.

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Pretty sure you'll find the coup was quite the opposite!

poom3619 said:

MODERN Thailand? kurwa. I suppose there are someone else who plan to do that, if I remember correctly.

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I remember there was another Siam split including Thailand in the wiki's unreleased civs page, but it is gone now, so I guess there isn't. Unless there is someone else I don't know about. Do you think it would be a bad idea? It might not be the best period in the nation's history, but it's still worth of representationn (I mean, there is a WW1 Ottoman civ, right?).

JFD said:

Pretty sure you'll find the coup was quite the opposite!

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Everyone's quite the opposite of what Hoop think, actually.

@DarthStarkiller. Well, thing is, there are no suitable prime minister that's controversy-free. Except maybe Seni Pramoj and his brother... well, the least controversial if you ask me.

Maybe Field Marshal Phibun could do as an WW2 version of Thailand (for Axis force). It would be a bit ironic if they fought each other BTW. (Seni was Thai ambassador of USA who refused to sent declaration of war against USA and establish Allies-aligned movement there, and Thailand only have to paid war reparation to UK and concede to France and USSR's political demand after the war)

Well, I worte a lenghy post about Ramkhamhaeng's deed that never mentioned by Firaxis (mostly because it doesn't exist in English Wikipedia) in library's computer and got Blue Screen Of Death. Ouch.

He did a numberous deeds, including invented Thai characters, Adopt Buddhism, Import beautiful pottery techniques from Yuan empire and Father Govern Children system which nothing like what UA's function suggest. Not to mention defeat local city-states and expand Sukhothai to it's greatest height.

I imagine Ramkhamhaeng's Civ to be cultured, more... self-relient civ. I will torn apart Firaxis' Ramkhamhaeng and suggest something more accurate, including the fact that first recorded proverb in Thai say that "In [our] water, [we] have fishes. In [our] paddy, [we] have rice." (and our land are very fertile) - Make me remember how baffled I am when vanilla DoM mention grinding poverty.

I also don't like Vanilla's map artwork. Sukhothai empire was "blocky" and it's low contrast color is more or less obsoleted compared to newer map, both in expansion and mod. I make a prototype of how I imagined reworked map. But it's look way worse outside of my laptop. So give me few moments.

I don't think not having any ideal leader is a huge problem. There isn't anyone either for Brazil (aside from Pedro), but the Brazil split is happening anyway.

Wasn't expecting an in depth political discussion about the controversies behind Thailand. I just wanted to know how best to represent each Kingdom, what focus they should have (whether industrial, cultural, scientific or trade), what leader they should have, what Uniques they should have...
However, i do see the relevance in making sure not to offend but i don't see how making civilizations based on old Kingdoms could possibly cause any issues. JFD made Nazi Germany and that's fine. Heck, i saw an ISIS civilization and while i condemn it i did see people not caring. Harm is given, offense is taken. I see no harm in making a Siam split, but i do see where there might be offense and why i have to tread carefully.

Also, just to clarify, i want this split to include JUST the Kingdoms i stated above, no more. No WW2, no ancient, no modern, nothing like that.

Well, welcome to Thailand where Hitler and his party can be a theme of school parade.

In-topic :

Ramkhamhaeng
- Invent Thai characters (In-game Decision?)
- Adopt Buddhism and establish friendly relation with city-state of the same creed (Event)
- Built levee system called Sareet-Pong to irrigate Sukhothai and vicinity when in dry season
- Father Govern Children system, People can ring a bell at the front of his "palace" and Ramkhamhaeng will listen to their concern.
- expand Sukhothai Kingdom to it's greatest height.

My reworked Ramkhamhaeng -
UA : Father Govern Children : halves of his vanilla bonus and something that's actually what it was.
UB : Sala (from 3rd Unique mod)
UB : Wat (?)

Click to expand...

Naresuan's civ would be an militaristic Civ which benefit from Great General and liberation

UA : -- NO IDEA FOR NOW ---
UU : modified Elephants, also should rename to something
UU : Jaturungkabart - elite pikeman replacement - Historically the elite warrior who protect their liege's war elephant's feets.

Click to expand...

poom3619 said:

Well, welcome to Thailand where Hitler and his party can be a theme of school parade.

In-topic :

Ramkhamhaeng
- Invent Thai characters (In-game Decision?)
- Adopt Buddhism and establish friendly relation with city-state of the same creed (Event)
- Built levee system called Sareet-Pong to irrigate Sukhothai and vicinity when in dry season
- Father Govern Children system, People can ring a bell at the front of his "palace" and Ramkhamhaeng will listen to their concern.
- expand Sukhothai Kingdom to it's greatest height.



Naresuan's civ would be an militaristic Civ which benefit from Great General and liberation

Click to expand...

I like the ideas, but did Ramkhanhaeng have any military unit that could be used as a UU? having two UBs isn't really a thing.

There are some civs that have no UUs, like the Nazca, but yeah, it should be avoided, it's pretty non-standard. The only civ IMO which shouldn't have an UU is Costa Rica.

Hmmm..... Ram?

UI: Wat
Unlocked at education. +2 culture, +1 faith, +1 science. +1 faith per each scientific building present in the city working it and +1 science per each religious one. May only be built on flat jungle tiles, never adjacent to each other for to cities.

UB: Ceramic Maker
Replaces workshop. Though it doesn't provide any production, it grants +2 culture and a copy of the unique Yuan pottery resource. Costs no maintenance and grants +1 gold from out coming trade routes.

For Ayutthaya's UA, how about that:

UA: Capital kingship(bad name)
After conquering a capital, resistance in all cities founded by the same civilization is halted and they will provide no unhappiness if they're puppets. Your cities gain +1 strength per each city you conquer, doubled in your capital.

How about this for Ayutthaya?

Kingdom of Ayutthaya

UA: Circle of Power: Annexing Puppets provides a WLTKD in both the Capital and the former puppet (once per city). +2 Happiness and +15% Military Unit Production during WLTKD.

UU: Royal Elephant: Replaces Knight. -1 Movement and more expensive, but greater Strength, no combat penalty versus cities, and no horse requirements. +50% Combat Bonus against mounted units. Triggers WLTKD in all cities upon capturing an enemy city (once per city), twice as long if it was a city you settled.

UU: Jaturungkabart: Replaces Pikeman. +1 Movement when starting next to a mounted unit. Combat bonus vs melee units rather than mounted units. Gives XP to adjacent mounted units upon killing an enemy.

Click to expand...

The UA refers to the Mandala system of Ayutthaya's government and also the transformation of kingship during the Ayutthaya period. Ayutthaya kings were considered divine and theoretically had absolute power, unlike during Sukhothai were the idea of kingship was paternalistic. The first UU could probably use a better name but the concept is there, a much stronger knight with several bonuses. The other UU is there to complement your elephant armies. They have a bonus against melee units since apparently they used Muay Thai according to some English sources (can someone Thai verify this?).