City State Diplomacy Mod (Updated)

I just want to drop in to say I won't be able to play civ5 next week...
(going to a place where the game won't be with me).

But perhaps I can peek in here :)
 
Played a future start game just to test out the new WTO - it's tons of fun! I'll have to play a regular game to really know whether it's OP or not; build times are weird with (and I don't think the AI knows how to handle) advanced starts. Noticed that all but one CS built any workers, have you adjusted their prefs? Also, none of the other civs got any CS alliance. Will give a more in depth response when I've played some more with the changes.
 
Played a future start game just to test out the new WTO - it's tons of fun! I'll have to play a regular game to really know whether it's OP or not; build times are weird with (and I don't think the AI knows how to handle) advanced starts. Noticed that all but one CS built any workers, have you adjusted their prefs? Also, none of the other civs got any CS alliance. Will give a more in depth response when I've played some more with the changes.

Alright, Seek, I'm back in town. Have any data for me?

G
 
Great mod. It really changes the way CS are played. One thing that bothers me it's the spearmans graphics when in use with CCMAT. I did manage to get the proper unit but lost it somewhere along the way. Could you write in the 1st port the 'real workaround'? I think I saw this somewhere on the forum.

Last game. Duel&Tiny islands&Prince. When I started the war with most of the civs they were keep producing diplomats but the units were afraid of my frigates and never embarked (to go to 3CS that were located on islands of course. I think the 'give unit' option should have a greater impact. I really don't know idf it's working right now. I think when I give the battleship CS with pikemen they should be gratefull.

The likness degradation rates are really slow right now. I was wondering about it and came to an idea. What about higher rate, closer to vanila but let the buildings (Embassy and such) be one time opportunity to decrease it.
In other words: Let's use the diplomats to raise the likeness and use the buildings to strenghten the connection.

One thing more. I have the feeling that the diplomats are too cheap right now. But maybe on large map with many CS that would balance.

Anyway. Thanks for the mod.
 
Great mod. It really changes the way CS are played. One thing that bothers me it's the spearmans graphics when in use with CCMAT. I did manage to get the proper unit but lost it somewhere along the way. Could you write in the 1st port the 'real workaround'? I think I saw this somewhere on the forum.

Last game. Duel&Tiny islands&Prince. When I started the war with most of the civs they were keep producing diplomats but the units were afraid of my frigates and never embarked (to go to 3CS that were located on islands of course. I think the 'give unit' option should have a greater impact. I really don't know idf it's working right now. I think when I give the battleship CS with pikemen they should be gratefull.

The likness degradation rates are really slow right now. I was wondering about it and came to an idea. What about higher rate, closer to vanila but let the buildings (Embassy and such) be one time opportunity to decrease it.
In other words: Let's use the diplomats to raise the likeness and use the buildings to strenghten the connection.

One thing more. I have the feeling that the diplomats are too cheap right now. But maybe on large map with many CS that would balance.

Anyway. Thanks for the mod.

What version are you using?

1.) The spearmen problem can be resolved by enabling CCMAT first, then my mod second (in the mod list in-game).

2.) haven't messed with the likeness degradation rates- that's probably a CCMAT thing.

3.) Also, by 'diplomats are too cheap' do you mean the diplo units in general or the diplomat unit?

4.) As far as the embarkation problem is concerned, it is because you were at war. When at peace they should embark normally.

G
 
I'm using the latest version 2.0 v4
1) I was trying that. Maybe it will work in my next game... or maybe it depends on instalation. I don't know how the games handles it.
2) Must be. I preffer that over vanila cause the CS are not changing sides so quickly
3) I've meant overall. I did never build the Forum or use the policy that speeds it and for most of the time they are about 10 turns to make, or less.
4) I think when civ have 2 units that can't do anything it shouldn't produce more of them. Well maybe thats because of the specific map. The islands were really tiny. I must try with something more continentalish.
 
G- Welcome back!
Not too much to report atm, have played a game through the Renaissance, and it's feeling pretty well balanced so far in terms of unit/forum costs. The Forum cost increase especially makes for more challenging decision making, especially with the 3gpt maintenance.
CSs are building workers this game, so I don't know what was going on in the future start test I described above. Nice to get those resources this time around! I really think the AI has no clue what to do with advanced starts.
Forgot to mention in my last post: It's undocumented that Ambassadors (any others?) have the hover promotion, so I just wanted to make sure this is intentional. Like it - though maybe a new unit graphic should be used?

To hop in on your conversation with Flymar:
1. Haven't had this happen for me, but in strategic mode the icons get really crazy. Had an Ambassador unit show up as a Chariot Archer, Mech Inf was a Spear, etc. Wonder why that is?
2. Maybe CS alliance degradation adjusts for map size? I play with CCMAT on standard or large maps and there is no change from vanilla.
3. I think ~10 turns per unit is pretty balanced... I personally wouldn't want it to be much more than that.
4. It's pretty well known that the AI is terrible with embarkation, so that's definitely an issue that's out of anyone but the dev's hands. I don't think one can mod it so that the AI adjusts builds to map type, unfortunately.

Also, been playing around with the WTO icon and haven't gotten anything to work - yet!;)
 
G- Welcome back!
Not too much to report atm, have played a game through the Renaissance, and it's feeling pretty well balanced so far in terms of unit/forum costs. The Forum cost increase especially makes for more challenging decision making, especially with the 3gpt maintenance.
CSs are building workers this game, so I don't know what was going on in the future start test I described above. Nice to get those resources this time around! I really think the AI has no clue what to do with advanced starts.
Forgot to mention in my last post: It's undocumented that Ambassadors (any others?) have the hover promotion, so I just wanted to make sure this is intentional. Like it - though maybe a new unit graphic should be used?

To hop in on your conversation with Flymar:
1. Haven't had this happen for me, but in strategic mode the icons get really crazy. Had an Ambassador unit show up as a Chariot Archer, Mech Inf was a Spear, etc. Wonder why that is?
2. Maybe CS alliance degradation adjusts for map size? I play with CCMAT on standard or large maps and there is no change from vanilla.
3. I think ~10 turns per unit is pretty balanced... I personally wouldn't want it to be much more than that.
4. It's pretty well known that the AI is terrible with embarkation, so that's definitely an issue that's out of anyone but the dev's hands. I don't think one can mod it so that the AI adjusts builds to map type, unfortunately.

Also, been playing around with the WTO icon and haven't gotten anything to work - yet!;)

1.) Strategic View icon problems are a result of custom unit icons. All mods with custom unit icons have this problem. Firaxis doesn't have this problem (Mongols, Babylon) because they patched the .exe. Meh. No fix...for now.

2.) Not sure on the degradation- ask Jooyo.

3.) I think 10 is what I want- since the units are single-use (unlike military units and buildings), they need to be just a tad cheaper than the average item of the era.

4.) I fixed embarkation for diplo units awhile back by disabling the 'multiuniformation' for merchants over water. Generally, the Merchant AI (the AI the diplo units use) wants an escort on both land and water. Well, you can't stack embarked units on water, so the merchant (or diplo unit) would just sit on the coast while the escort would shift back and forth between embarked hexes. Not a terrible waste if you get one or two Great Merchants a game, as the merchant will eventually just golden age or settle down. Diplo units, though, were sitting on the coast en masse. Not good.

If, for some reason, they are doing this again, let me know.

Also, Seek, are you using CCMAT? If so, are your units spearmen? Want to make sure I didn't mess something up in the artdefines files.

Finally, yes Ambassadors do have 'hover,' but only as a test. It looks funny on mountains, but I think it might be a nice promotion for those hard-to-reach mountain CSs. Yes/no?

Thanks again for the feedback, all. If you are reading this and using my mod, please let me know what you think! I want to incorporate as many ideas as I can into this mod.

G
 
I am on post 267. I can't wait to play though; so will start with the settings in attached files.
First: Mods active
Second: Custom Game settings

If I notice anything I will mention it. As I have multiple mods I will try and relate if I think it is yours. If I think it is another I will mention it there..

Time to CIV!

Edit:

I added my random civ; personality; and start. Now to play.
 

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Sounds great! Keep me informed of what you think.

G

I have 2 cs's right next to me! This might get interesting. Also Siam is close.. hum.. can you rush warriors with cmat? I do plan on makeing a play through thread over in them forums at some point. Right now it is notepad and screen capts.
 

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Hi, I'm not quite sure if I want to use this mod yet. I'm sure in the future it'll be really awesome, but right now it doesn't seem very engaging. In a sense, spamming diplo units is practically the same as bribing, only it takes more time and sounds a bit tedius. What I think about diplomacy is working hard to be cooperative with nations that have conflicting interest.

Decreasing bribes and increasing quests is a start, but I've already done that :) I think much more interesting would be to have to make decisions on whether to aid one city state or another, and your decisions could cause you to perhaps even lose influence with some city states. Anyways, I'll be checking up on this :D
 
This mod kinda forces you to be more picky because you have to spend production on City States. Production is a rarer resource then gold and unlike gold it doesn't have a global pool. This makes befriending city states (or not) a more complex decision.

Given that the unit also has to physically move to the CS means decisions are further complexed. Especially when it comes to whom to befriend and whom not.

All in all it adds a lot of depth to the whole City States diplomacy part of Civ V. Which except for the maritime bonus is probably the biggest issue people have with City States.
 
Hi, I'm not quite sure if I want to use this mod yet. I'm sure in the future it'll be really awesome, but right now it doesn't seem very engaging. In a sense, spamming diplo units is practically the same as bribing, only it takes more time and sounds a bit tedius. What I think about diplomacy is working hard to be cooperative with nations that have conflicting interest.

Decreasing bribes and increasing quests is a start, but I've already done that :) I think much more interesting would be to have to make decisions on whether to aid one city state or another, and your decisions could cause you to perhaps even lose influence with some city states. Anyways, I'll be checking up on this :D

Slowpoke,

A random event generator for CSs would be nice, though I'm not sure we (as a modding community) have such capacity yet.

Honestly, give it a try. As Alderaan mentioned, spending production instead of gold to befriend CSs makes diplomacy more engaging (because it is more costly) and it frees you up to spend your gold on other, more fun things like buying units, land and buildings.

In any case, my main focus for this mod wasn't to dramatically overhaul the way players interact with CSs (influence is influence, regardless of whence it comes), but rather to make CS diplomacy a geopolitical scenario. In vanilla, invisible ships could cart thousands of gold to CSs around the world in a split-second, allowing players to pick and choose the choicest CSs to befriend. Now, because diplo. units are capture-able civilians and can't enter rival territory (until you get the Foreign Office), players have to work with what's around them, CS wise.

Finally, this mod adds a bit of much-needed micromanagement for pacifistic civs. When CiV first came out I tried out a diplo victory (wanting to play with the new CS mechanic). 5 hours of clicking next turn, next turn, next turn later, I had won. But you know what? Not once did I feel like I was DOING anything. I was simply waiting for things to be done. :)

My rule with modding is, "never make something you yourself don't want to play." Though I am biased towards CSD2, I can't play civ without it. :)

Either way, I respect your opinion Slowpoke and appreciate you letting me know how you feel.

G
 
I really like your mod.

Is there any limitations to the AI to stop them producing diplo units when they arent required?
In my game earlier it was small continents with no city states on island. I had rushed towards sailing/optics and land grabbed the island so Germany was still at 1 city.

However it had produced 2 diplo units and I wouldnt have thought it had met any city states yet.
 
Sounds great! Keep me informed of what you think.

G

Ok, I played through to a later turn (not at home computer now). I will get a screen shot. I think I got the best start for a diplomatic win and your mod. It was just me and Siam and 4 CS's. I took Siam so now it is me and 4 cs's really close. It feels like I got more random "quests" than in vanilla so far. I like that. Anyway will tell you if anything happens and when I get my win. I'm confident I can get a dilpo easy with this start. All random settings FTW!
 
I really like your mod.

Is there any limitations to the AI to stop them producing diplo units when they arent required?
In my game earlier it was small continents with no city states on island. I had rushed towards sailing/optics and land grabbed the island so Germany was still at 1 city.

However it had produced 2 diplo units and I wouldnt have thought it had met any city states yet.

Horace,

Just to clarify, are you saying that you turned off CSs in your game? If so, I'd disable this mod, as it doesn't do much if you don't have CSs enabled.

As far as the CS requirement goes, I'd like to (but there is no way...yet) to make diplo unit production dependent upon meeting at least one city-state. The AI will build diplo units until it reaches the maximum player limit for units (i.e. you can only have 2 messengers at a time in v5) based upon its FLAVOR_DIPLOMACY leader variable. Some leaders will be more likely to build diplo units early and more often than others because of a high flavor. In this case, it sounds like Bismarck has a high flavor for diplomacy.

Thanks for the question- will look into prereqs and see if there's anything I can do.

Ok, I played through to a later turn (not at home computer now). I will get a screen shot. I think I got the best start for a diplomatic win and your mod. It was just me and Siam and 4 CS's. I took Siam so now it is me and 4 cs's really close. It feels like I got more random "quests" than in vanilla so far. I like that. Anyway will tell you if anything happens and when I get my win. I'm confident I can get a dilpo easy with this start. All random settings FTW!

Fun! Although I must ask (tongue firmly in cheek) are you sure you want to 'get a dilpo?' Sounds dangerous.

G
 
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