City State Diplomacy Mod (Updated)

Thanks for the update :)

I have only recently discovered this mod and played my first (partial) game with 2.8. It had to be partial as I was using another mod Specialized Barbarian Units which continually crashed when loading a saved game).

I have just started another one using the 2.9.1 revision through the mod browser.

As my last game only lasted until turn 207 I hadn't been able to explore much of the mods features but I did enjoy using the Envoys on their diplomatic missions. Building a forum and popping out, when possible, a few Envoys was great to ally with a number of City States. Even better was when Spain declared was on me all the States then went to war with her and as some of them were bordered against her it did prove quite entertaining.

I did notice (I played as Alexander, Greek) that my Envoys were represented by a group with spears. Wouldn't something like a scout be more appropriate as they are on a diplomatic mission after all..? I have removed that barbarian mod now and maybe that accounted for it..? EDIT: After continuing my new game long enough to build a messenger I can confirm that it was indeed the barbarian mod which was causing my diplomats to look like a group of spearmen.

When you write...


what was that issue..?

As I had the issues with the barbarian mod as I noted does anyone have any thoughts on whether there are any glaring issues here with these mods I now use...

Attila Mods (v 13)
Better Japanese City Names (v 1)
City-State Diplomacy Mod 2.9.1 (v 10)
CivWillard (v 1)
Copasetic UI Tweaks (v 4)
InfoAddict (v 10)
Smarter TechTree Pipes (v 1)
Unofficial Patch III (v 32)

thanks for any advice with using the above mods together and thanks again Gazebo for sharing this mod and your continued work.

Generally I recommend loading my mod (CSD) last by 'checking' it last on the mod menu. If you see spearmen, that means it didn't load the custom unit art for my diplo units (as spearmen are the default unit mesh, for some reason).

Glad you like it!
 
I can give this a look. Just know that given the way the system works right now, you will run into a wall of compatibility issues

I figured as much. Are there any aspects of Civ5 that DON'T run into compatibility issues? :badcomp:

Take your time. I'll be out of town this weekend, and I start teaching again next week. Thus why I rushed to get 2.9.1 out before today!
G
 
If this is a core file that needs to be overwritten due to the way it loads (fully during game creation, rather than piecemeal like UI), then you will want to set VFS to true, and deal with the incompatibility issues.
--This is the method for R.E.D. graphic pack (which would overwrite your files if someone played both)

yep, that file need to be overwritten and can't be updated.

btw, R.E.D. include the art defines for the diplo units, so it's compatible with this mod if loaded last.
 
Hey Hey, very nice mod. Can't play without anymore. Makes the whole game way more fun for me.
You need someone for a german translation of the mod?

LavaLama
 
yep, that file need to be overwritten and can't be updated.

btw, R.E.D. include the art defines for the diplo units, so it's compatible with this mod if loaded last.

That's the way I have it in 2.9.1. I tried creating a new file with just my art and no VFS, but it just wouldn't work. So, now its the full file done via VFS. This mod should be compatible with R.E.D., though you should check it last.

Hey Hey, very nice mod. Can't play without anymore. Makes the whole game way more fun for me.
You need someone for a german translation of the mod?

LavaLama

I would love it! I am technically fluent in German, however it has been years since I have done any full-on translation work. Goethe-Zertifikat B1 FTW.
G
 
yep, that file need to be overwritten and can't be updated.

btw, R.E.D. include the art defines for the diplo units, so it's compatible with this mod if loaded last.


Misread your last post. I didn't realize you had put the CSD custom art in your mod. So yes, load R.E.D last.
 
yep, that file need to be overwritten and can't be updated.

btw, R.E.D. include the art defines for the diplo units, so it's compatible with this mod if loaded last.

Same goes for my Dutch Republic. Dutch Republic should be checked last if you also use this mod.
 
I would recommend checking last the mod whose graphics you want to show. Red gets priority because it includes cs diplo models already.
 
I would recommend checking last the mod whose graphics you want to show. Red gets priority because it includes cs diplo models already.

Yep, yep. I'll post this info on the front page (as well as the info on the dutch republic). Any progress on your new CCMAT, Sneaks? Also, that .lua file you said you might work on? :)

No rush- I'm pretty busy right now, too.

G
 
It's really good, it allows me to spend my gold on other things and gets me to think about what I need to do. Diplomatic unit production is pretty good, but that's what makes the forum underwhelming. The forum should be a diplomatic "barracks" rather than a "forge", and maintenence is a bit OTT. All in all, brilliant idea and strategy designing.
 
It's really good, it allows me to spend my gold on other things and gets me to think about what I need to do. Diplomatic unit production is pretty good, but that's what makes the forum underwhelming. The forum should be a diplomatic "barracks" rather than a "forge", and maintenence is a bit OTT. All in all, brilliant idea and strategy designing.

What do you mean a 'barracks?' As in, it should give diplo units experience? Towards what? I'm curious!
G
 
What do you mean a 'barracks?' As in, it should give diplo units experience? Towards what? I'm curious!
G

Hi Gazebo

I believe the poster was suggesting that the Forum should be a production requirement for the units, rather then simply decreasing the production cost of the units - though feel free to correct me if my assumption is wrong. On that subject, from the 2.8 version and on standard time settings, it usually makes a 13 turn basic cost into 9 - which is actually a good time save as to ensure no allies are lost given that, assuming you're going for a diplomatic victory on a large map, you'll have many factions to keep happy.

Anyways - to the creator - This is probably the best game play changing mod that I've experienced in Civ5. When I first was looking at this mod, I was initially sceptical about how the AI would handle these new units - given how the AI isn't especially good at handling all the other units. These fears were extinguished very quickly.

In a recent game, I specifically went for the diplomatic victory and it was actually fairly exciting since Arabia seemed to be going for the same victory. I distinctly remember that I had 7 of the 10 votes needed just before building the united nations. However, by the time is was near completion, Arabia, who had a handful of alliances themselves, stole 1 of mine and allied with others giving them 9 votes - and it genuinely was tense for a while, especially as a player cannot see the relationship score a Civ-State has with the other Main-Civs - and those scores could well be into the +250 ranges (I'm not being daft and there is actually a way to check the scores from other Civs to CivSates, am I?). Anyway, this made the victory seem worth while, an experience far superior to the throwing money tactics of before.

So thanks to the creator and I urge others to try this. This provides a far better game-play experience by restricting your Civ-State alliances in the early game (based on geography) and then makes you spend production time to maintain them (outside of their normal quests of course) which is far more valuable then those easy-to-come-by coins.

My only issue is that I often try to avoid getting the next tech level which grants me new diplomatic units - all because I can produce the previous those previous units much quicker and the movement upgrade just doesn't make the upgrade appetising. The only other thing would be that, after playing several games with this mod and you begin utilizing your cities and units better for a dedicated diplomatic victory, then it can be almost a little easy to accomplish and I sometimes feel the influence given by each Diplomatic unit is maybe a little high, but only by 10%, 20% tops (or maybe the AI is a little step behind - although it's diplomatic algorithm seems superior to its war against a human algorithm). Neither of these criticisms take away from the pure value added by this mod. This is a step in the right direction with Civ State diplomacy (and by step, Big-Giant-Moon-Steps.

Anyway, I've only played about a half dozen games with this mod, yet I feel that I can no longer play a Civ5 game without it- the diplomatic world would just feel too simple. Kudos to the creator for a really well made mod, and may it continue... May one day, that diplomacy with the AI may too, be both logical and fun.

A couple of notes/exploits:
I am not sure if it is Intended, but (because I cannot recall all the units exact names, let's call all your diplomat units A,B,C,D and E for simplicity - each ascending letter being the superior version of its predecessor). Now, the techs that unlock each of these units are NOT prerequisites of each other, and the previous unit (say A) only gets obsolete at the next unit (say B) but not when later units become available (I.e., C, D and E do NOT obsolete A).

Thus, it is fully possible that you can be producing the 2 A units, Skip the technology which unlocks B, later unlock the C units and build 3 C units as well as those A units.... This can occur again so that you can skip the D unit Tech and unlock the E's. Meaning that you can actually produce 2A's, 3C's and 5E's all at the same time if you wanted to. This is an exploit which is not intended, I am sure - since by late game, those A units are so cheap that you could pump them out each turn. (Edit: I don't have the game open infront of me, but maybe it is B and D which you can produce at the same time... I cannot remember - but you can definitely cheat in places to keep those extra, cheaper units)

Lucky for me, I use Tech Diffusion, making it near impossible to effectively use that exploit, but you may want to tweak the tech-prerequisites or ensure obsolescence occurs at those non-prerequisite-able techs (you can have more then one tech say something is Obsolete, can't you?)

Suggestions (well, fun ideas I thought of while playing the 2.8 version. Their validity and integrity are definitely questionable):
::: Diplomatic Immunity :::
A special upgrade that prevents your higher (D,E) diplomatics from being destroyed/captured. Thought it might make the higher units seem more appealing.
::: Boosting the Great Merchant :::
Of course, the indirect effect of adding these diplomatic units is that the Great Merchant has experienced dire devaluation (though some may add he was always the worse of the Special People). I would like to see him boosted a little in some way, either with increased money or influence. Or maybe with some other method.
::: Money Influence Decrease :::
I understand the need to let influence be bought so to enable the AI to spend their easy-earned-cash, and that it now costs a minimum of 1500 coin to net influence, my only issue is that influence is very high. So, although cash is only meant to be a secondary means in this mod, it is quite feasible to buy a couple of CivStates late game with one big cash sum for +150 influence. I'd like to see money taken out of the equation almost all together by, if possible, making that 1500 coin deposit only worth a small amount of influence.
::: Influence Scaling :::
This idea is probably not possible without the source code, but it might also be beneficial for the influence a diplomatic unit gives, to scale with its 'level'. I.E., your A unit might give 30 influence, your B unit 40. C=50, etc., etc. so those later units pack more of a punch and make that tech-upgrade more appealing.

Anyway, that's the end of my unnecessarily long feedback post. Good day to you all


The Flaming Red
Rock-Paper-Scissors-Lizard-Spock
 
Hi Gazebo

I believe the poster was suggesting that the Forum should be a production requirement for the units, rather then simply decreasing the production cost of the units - though feel free to correct me if my assumption is wrong.


Ah, I see...currently I know of no easy way to enable units via buildings. If anyone else knows how, feel free to share!

Anyways - to the creator - This is probably the best game play changing mod that I've experienced in Civ5. When I first was looking at this mod, I was initially sceptical about how the AI would handle these new units - given how the AI isn't especially good at handling all the other units. These fears were extinguished very quickly.

Thanks! I worked hard on the AI.

(I'm not being daft and there is actually a way to check the scores from other Civs to CivSates, am I?). Anyway, this made the victory seem worth while, an experience far superior to the throwing money tactics of before.

The only way to see their values is to cheat using the cheat version of CivWillard (or another program like it). Generally, the AI stops sending diplo units around 300 influence (sometimes they get carried away...).

My only issue is that I often try to avoid getting the next tech level which grants me new diplomatic units - all because I can produce the previous those previous units much quicker and the movement upgrade just doesn't make the upgrade appetising. The only other thing would be that, after playing several games with this mod and you begin utilizing your cities and units better for a dedicated diplomatic victory, then it can be almost a little easy to accomplish and I sometimes feel the influence given by each Diplomatic unit is maybe a little high, but only by 10%, 20% tops (or maybe the AI is a little step behind - although it's diplomatic algorithm seems superior to its war against a human algorithm).

This is the biggest problem with CSD, yet I know of no easy way to encourage upgrading because unit influence is locked at 55 for all units. Once I can change that, believe me, I will scale influence for each unit (40-45-50-55-60 is the current plan)

A couple of notes/exploits:
I am not sure if it is Intended, but (because I cannot recall all the units exact names, let's call all your diplomat units A,B,C,D and E for simplicity - each ascending letter being the superior version of its predecessor). Now, the techs that unlock each of these units are NOT prerequisites of each other, and the previous unit (say A) only gets obsolete at the next unit (say B) but not when later units become available (I.e., C, D and E do NOT obsolete A).

Hax! :) Yeah, I was aware of this, yet I'm not really sure how to fix this...one thought (and this might fix the above issue concerning upgrades) is to have the diplomatic units from the previous era obsolete as a result of an early new era tech (i.e. have Messengers obsolete with a level-1 medieval tech). The only problem with this is that there might be a few turns in which you won't be able to build diplo units, which sucks. If anyone has any ideas on this, let me know.

Lucky for me, I use Tech Diffusion, making it near impossible to effectively use that exploit, but you may want to tweak the tech-prerequisites or ensure obsolescence occurs at those non-prerequisite-able techs (you can have more then one tech say something is Obsolete, can't you?)

I'll look into your last suggestion. I'm not sure if its possible.


::: Diplomatic Immunity :::
A special upgrade that prevents your higher (D,E) diplomatics from being destroyed/captured. Thought it might make the higher units seem more appealing.

I don't think there is a way to enable invincibility for units. I could try cloaking for fun, but the cloaking mechanism is utterly broken on land...for now.

::: Boosting the Great Merchant :::
Of course, the indirect effect of adding these diplomatic units is that the Great Merchant has experienced dire devaluation (though some may add he was always the worse of the Special People). I would like to see him boosted a little in some way, either with increased money or influence. Or maybe with some other method.

Most GM mods make his customs house building more useful, which I think is a nice boost. Ultimately, he's really a Great Merchant/Diplomat if you are using CSD (as he too gets the 55 influence boost).

::: Money Influence Decrease :::
I understand the need to let influence be bought so to enable the AI to spend their easy-earned-cash, and that it now costs a minimum of 1500 coin to net influence, my only issue is that influence is very high. So, although cash is only meant to be a secondary means in this mod, it is quite feasible to buy a couple of CivStates late game with one big cash sum for +150 influence. I'd like to see money taken out of the equation almost all together by, if possible, making that 1500 coin deposit only worth a small amount of influence.

I've been tweaking the gold:influence ratio in the past few versions. I don't want it to be too low, because otherwise the already gimped AI will be throwing its money into an empty pool (whereas players spend it on useful stuff like...guns and bombs). Once the AI learns to spend their money I'll cut out influence via gold altogether.

::: Influence Scaling :::
This idea is probably not possible without the source code, but it might also be beneficial for the influence a diplomatic unit gives, to scale with its 'level'. I.E., your A unit might give 30 influence, your B unit 40. C=50, etc., etc. so those later units pack more of a punch and make that tech-upgrade more appealing.

Yeah, source code love needed for this one. Is definitely #1 on my list.


Anyway, that's the end of my unnecessarily long feedback post. Good day to you all

Thanks for the great feedback. Hopefully others will join the CSD revolution! It'd be swell if the folks at Firaxis saw this and incorporated it, eh? As long as they include a Gazebo building in the game (replace that dumb Garden!) I'll be happy!
 
Ah, I see...currently I know of no easy way to enable units via buildings. If anyone else knows how, feel free to share!

The process appears to be quite simple, and is used liberally in the "Procylon Call to Power Project" where building X is required to build Unit Y. Although I cannot say whether you just need one of those buildings in your civilization to unlock the unit, or if you need that building in each city you would want to build it in. Someone who has spent a little more time playing PCtPP maybe able to elaborate on that before I get through that mod properly.

But I digress, their code for the GAUSS_TANK, for example is as simple as adding to the Unit's XML:

Code:
		<Row>
			<UnitType>UNIT_GAUSS_TANK</UnitType>
			<BuildingClassType>BUILDINGCLASS_ADVANCED_AUTO_PLANT</BuildingClassType>
		</Row>

It appears that all would be required is to replace GAUSS_TANK and ADVANCE_AUTO_PLANT to your diplomatic unit and forum, respectively. (maybe there are some other steps such as updating the CIV5BuildingClasses.xml too.)

However, having said all that, I don't think it's the kind of addition that is needed withing CSD. The +Culture and -%Production already makes it an attractive building, not only if you intend to play culturely or diplomatically. It can save a city a good 50+ turns of production in a standard speed game.


Hax! :) Yeah, I was aware of this, yet I'm not really sure how to fix this...one thought (and this might fix the above issue concerning upgrades) is to have the diplomatic units from the previous era obsolete as a result of an early new era tech (i.e. have Messengers obsolete with a level-1 medieval tech). The only problem with this is that there might be a few turns in which you won't be able to build diplo units, which sucks. If anyone has any ideas on this, let me know.

I'll look into your last suggestion. I'm not sure if its possible.

I wouldn't like the idea of units to go out date before you can research the next unit. Time without a diplomatic unit could be crippling and unintended. If you were going down that path, I'd suggest making your Messenger go obsolete at Renaissance, with the oppertunity to research Civil Service before that time comes.

I've just edited your Civ5Units file to have your messenger have multple Obsolete Techs and that actually prevents all your added units from being loaded, so that killed my suggestion. It appears the only other way would be to edit the tech trees, though I would suggest against that as there are so many paths you'd need to build.

E.g., (I'm going with Letters again)
E demands A, B, C and NOT D.
D depends on all A, B and C (So nothing wrong there)
C does NOT depend on A or B.
B depends on A (nothing wrong there either/)

So putting branches between Civil Seriveice and Printing Press, and between Railroad and Mass Media - without making a mess of the tree. The Messy fix would of course be to move Emissary and Foreign Office to somewhere like Navigation and your Diplomat to Electricity, for examples.

In my next game.... I'm actually considering cutting out B and D, to see what the game would be like (without moving C). The upgrades over those three remaing units would be far more beneficial as 2 extra movement + other bonuses means that they are required to ally Civ Sates which are not nearby (to the point where one may want to even upgrade their current diplomatic units that maybe sitting on standby). It's just a test of course and I wouldn't suggesting cutting them out from the mod.

I don't think there is a way to enable invincibility for units. I could try cloaking for fun, but the cloaking mechanism is utterly broken on land...for now.

I've been tweaking the gold:influence ratio in the past few versions. I don't want it to be too low, because otherwise the already gimped AI will be throwing its money into an empty pool (whereas players spend it on useful stuff like...guns and bombs). Once the AI learns to spend their money I'll cut out influence via gold altogether.

Yeah, source code love needed for this one. Is definitely #1 on my list.

Yeah, would love to get my hands on the source code just to fix certain parts of the game. While making the mods very modular (with respect to other games) is a nice step forward for simply chances to be made to the game, too many hands are being tied without the source.

Most GM mods make his customs house building more useful, which I think is a nice boost. Ultimately, he's really a Great Merchant/Diplomat if you are using CSD (as he too gets the 55 influence boost).

I've haven't tried modding great people, nor have I played any mods that changed the great people (Though there's a chance I just didn't realise a mod had done it compared with its other changes). Mr Great Merchent is still nice to have on a Diplomatic game of course, its just I now see him as a free diplomat ;) putting him almost on the same level as a Military Civ State gifted unit. Poor soul...

Thanks for the great feedback. Hopefully others will join the CSD revolution! It'd be swell if the folks at Firaxis saw this and incorporated it, eh? As long as they include a Gazebo building in the game (replace that dumb Garden!) I'll be happy!

In fairness, the developers should see this mod as a good gameplay addition. I'd be demanding a small cut of their wages too, but I doubt it would happen. :D Also, I'd just make a small XML file in your mod to change the word Garden into Gazebo... it'll be interesting to see who notices.

The Flaming Red
Rock-Paper-Scissors-Lizard-Spock
 
Code:
		<Row>
			<UnitType>UNIT_GAUSS_TANK</UnitType>
			<BuildingClassType>BUILDINGCLASS_ADVANCED_AUTO_PLANT</BuildingClassType>
		</Row>

It appears that all would be required is to replace GAUSS_TANK and ADVANCE_AUTO_PLANT to your diplomatic unit and forum, respectively. (maybe there are some other steps such as updating the CIV5BuildingClasses.xml too.)

However, having said all that, I don't think it's the kind of addition that is needed withing CSD. The +Culture and -%Production already makes it an attractive building, not only if you intend to play culturely or diplomatically. It can save a city a good 50+ turns of production in a standard speed game.

Yeah, I experimented with this setup awhile back, but I didn't like it because it restricted a players' freedom of choice (especially during the early game, when production is limited). I may try it again later on (perhaps with special units like diplomat-assassins or the like) if the game fixes a few problems such as no cloaking.

E.g., (I'm going with Letters again)
E demands A, B, C and NOT D.
D depends on all A, B and C (So nothing wrong there)
C does NOT depend on A or B.
B depends on A (nothing wrong there either/)

So putting branches between Civil Seriveice and Printing Press, and between Railroad and Mass Media - without making a mess of the tree. The Messy fix would of course be to move Emissary and Foreign Office to somewhere like Navigation and your Diplomat to Electricity, for examples

This is possible, though I like the current locations for historical purposes. One thing I've though about adding during the renaissance would be a ship (like the caravel) that can do diplomatic missions. The 2 movement embark speed really sucks, especially late game (I could tweak it, but I still like the idea of a special ship).

In my next game.... I'm actually considering cutting out B and D, to see what the game would be like (without moving C). The upgrades over those three remaing units would be far more beneficial as 2 extra movement + other bonuses means that they are required to ally Civ Sates which are not nearby (to the point where one may want to even upgrade their current diplomatic units that maybe sitting on standby). It's just a test of course and I wouldn't suggesting cutting them out from the mod.

Version 1.0-1.9 of the mod was like this, with dire results. Not having stop-gap units B and D (Envoy and Diplomat) means that messengers are way OP and the spikes in production in the renaissance and modern eras send a shock to your diplomatic relations. You can test and let me know what you think, but from previous testing it felt a bit hollow.

In fairness, the developers should see this mod as a good gameplay addition. I'd be demanding a small cut of their wages too, but I doubt it would happen. :D Also, I'd just make a small XML file in your mod to change the word Garden into Gazebo... it'll be interesting to see who notices.

I might just do that...though not everyone will agree that the Gazebo is the most important part of the garden...

Thanks again for the feedback.
G
 
What do you mean a 'barracks?' As in, it should give diplo units experience? Towards what? I'm curious!
G

Maybe promotions which give them either 1 movement, more influence to that city state, or 3 embarked movement. Diplomatic unit production is already pretty good, it's moving the unit and limited influence which is the challenge, which is probably what you intended, so the bonuses should be centered around them. The forum can only be considered useful when you've built quite a couple of diplomatic units, by then you will have lost the money you could have spent rush buying the unit anyway through maintenence. And the Patronage policy you changed should be that diplo units provide more influence, rather than take shorter to build.
PS. Where are the additional mods with Suleiman and the medics?
 
Maybe promotions which give them either 1 movement, more influence to that city state, or 3 embarked movement. Diplomatic unit production is already pretty good, it's moving the unit and limited influence which is the challenge, which is probably what you intended, so the bonuses should be centered around them. The forum can only be considered useful when you've built quite a couple of diplomatic units, by then you will have lost the money you could have spent rush buying the unit anyway through maintenence. And the Patronage policy you changed should be that diplo units provide more influence, rather than take shorter to build.
PS. Where are the additional mods with Suleiman and the medics?

Unfortunately, there isn't a way to change the influence given by a unit (yet). Once that becomes possible I will do so. As far as embarkment is concerned, I'm having a difficult time implementing it without causing the game to crash (don't know why). Will continue to work on this.

The other mods are on the front page and should be in the mod browser. They are independent mods.

G
 
Hello

I am enjoying this mod but could you please answer me this...

The screenshot below...




..shows that I am allied with Sidon and was allied with Copenhagen. However they seemed to have become allied with Catherine. Regardless of how many Emissaries that I use I can't seem to increase my status back to allied rather than friendly.

I have included the detail of CivWillard in the hope that it provides you with any extra information you need.
 
Hello

I am enjoying this mod but could you please answer me this...

The screenshot below...




..shows that I am allied with Sidon and was allied with Copenhagen. However they seemed to have become allied with Catherine. Regardless of how many Emissaries that I use I can't seem to increase my status back to allied rather than friendly.

I have included the detail of CivWillard in the hope that it provides you with any extra information you need.

Sounds like you are in a friendship war with Catherine. The AI will occasionally decide they MUST have a city-state at any cost and will send wave after wave of diplomatic units to the CS. There is no limit to the amount influence you can gain over a city-state, so I imagine that Catherine has around 180-200 if not more. As long as she has more than you you will never be more than just friends with Copenhagen (even if you have 200+ influence).

Make sense?
G
 
yes it does, thanks :)

If she wasn't such a hottie she would suffer my wrath. Ok she would probably wipe the floor with me :(
 
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