Blue Monkey's Bharata Varsha Bazaar

I am trying to think out a way to implemant the Vedic religions in my mod for Civ4. I plan on grouping the religions in categories. I would just like to ask you thoughts how you would group them. For example Hinduism, Vishnu, Shavi, and Shakti fall under Hinduism. I will very likely change some around, and I may add some ancient Vedic religion as well in some form. I will appreciate any info. Thanks ahead time

Here is the link.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=240440
I'll write up a little outline of the historical development of Hinduism and post it later tonight.
 
Hinduism Family Tree

This is not meant to be historically or theologically precise. Its sole purpose is as a rough guide for modders who may wish to include a series of South Asian religions in their tech lines.


There is no religion named “Hinduism”. The closest parallel in Western society would be to consider the Abrahamic religions as one religion - lumping Baha'is, Shi’ites, Hassidim, Jewish Marxists, Freudian psychoanalysts, Greek Orthodox, Pentecostals, and Mormons, amongst others, into one undifferentiated block. There is however, a common thread of shared culture and geography, and historical development amongst the many spiritual paths usually labelled Hindu, as there is with the Abrahamic religions.

This very oversimplified family tree lays it out, roughly chronologically:


Originally there was what is now called the Vedic Religion - orally transmitted within a semi-nomadic chariot-riding culture we call the Aryans. Their gods were cognate with the Greek, Roman, and other European pantheons. Their main ritual was a sacrificial fire.

At more or less the same time the Harappan culture was creating the artifacts that leave us tantalizing glimpses of their religious life - seals with a male figure seated in a meditative posture, incense burning in front of a bull, etc. The relationship between these two strands is unclear; the Harappan language is untranslated, so we don’t know the names of any of their deities, and no identifiable temples have been found which would put the images in context.

At some point a new set of gods (including Brahma, Vishnu, & Shiva) began to displace the Vedic pantheon. The Vedas also began to be written down, and the rituals became very formalized. This is where the Brahminic religion comes in with a priestly caste in charge of all scriptural, philosophical, moral and ritual matters.

Later there were reactions to this conservatism and increasing ritualization that could be very broadly characterized as similar to the various Protestant reactions to Catholicism - dissatisfied individuals seeking their own distinct spiritual path, that they later shared with others. These individuals' search seems to have been enriched by contact with forest-dwelling practitioners of aboriginal religions, perhaps a remnant of Harappan practices. Under the heading of Dharma Yoga (which might be very loosely translated as techniques of living rightly) I’ve included such teachers as Mahavira (leader of the Jains) and Gautama Buddha.

A flowering within the orthodoxy spurred by these alternatives became expressed in the various Aastikas - various organized systems of philosophy covering the spectrum from poly- heno- and monotheism to rationalist world systems and atheist approaches to morality.

Vedanta reintroduced the Vedas in a more modern interpretation, incorporating some insights from the Dharma Yogas and the Aastikas. Bhakti movements came about a little later, centered in ecstatic worship of a particular deity, and not requiring the intellectual muscle of Vedanta.

In modern times what we call “Hinduism” might be expressed as a form of Vedanta (Hatha Yoga, Ayurvedic medicine, Vegetarianism, and meditative spiritual paths), Bhakti ( worship of Shiva, of various feminine deities as Shakti, or of one of the avatars of Vishnu - such as the Hare Krishnas practice in the West), or something closer to Brahminic rituals (as seen at the many temples in India). Within “Hinduism” there is no enforced exclusivity - although there are fanatics and fundamentalists, most people would have no problem participating in the various kinds of practices appropriate to any given situation.
 
You cannot be serious and expect me to read all that! :twitch:
Stormy! You can read!? But I even put a picture in it ...well a chart.:p

That was done to answer johny smith's question. I think it's actually pretty concise for a religious history of an entire (sub)continent from the Bronze Age to the 21st Century.
 
That was done to answer johny smith's question. I think it's actually pretty concise for a religious history of an entire (sub)continent from the Bronze Age to the 21st Century.

And thanks for that. I think it accomplished what I need to know for a large subject. Thanks again.
 
Stormy! You can read!? But I even put a picture in it ...well a chart.:p

That was done to answer johny smith's question. I think it's actually pretty concise for a religious history of an entire (sub)continent from the Bronze Age to the 21st Century.

Well, yeah, but the chart has a weird font :p

I`ll read it too, eventually.. I just need to get prepared :lol:
 
Stone me if you must. But could this work for technologies with founding the religions in parenthesis. I know they are not accurate, but this is what I am gathering would work best.


i. Vedic(Vedic)
-------1. Brahmin(Vishnu)
--------------------a. Bhakti(Shiva)
------------------------b. Vedanta(Hinduism)
--------------------------c. Tantras(Shakti)

-------2. Puja (Jainism)
--------------------a. Dharma(Buddhism)


How do you feel Sikhism fits in with everything?
 
I knew I left something out! Sikhism was in part a response to conflicts between the Muslim ruling class and Hindu populace. It was an attempt to provide a universal spiritual path that would be equally acceptable to both. And since the Sikh religion was founded by a series of Gurus, and gurus are associated with the Bhakti style that could work. I agree with Virote - Sikhism should require both Bhakti & Islam as prerequisites.

As to the proposed techs I'd replace "puja" with "meditation" for the Jains. Puja would be in the same slot where you have Brahmin now (either word would be fine for the same tech).
 
When will this be out?
 
Im talking about blue monkey's mod.
 
When will this be out?
Im talking about blue monkey's mod.
If you were really and truly interested you'd be looking at all my threads:;)
Wow masonery is really impressing...
Is there any India specific mod in the making?
Yes, but please don't tell anybody - I'm keeping it secret because I work so slowly it'll probably be posted just about the time people start playing Conquests on the holodeck. Like it says in my Bharata Varsha Bazaar:
... In addition to research for my own yet to be started mod,...
(italicized bold added) :p
 
First of all thank you Blue Monkey for the information. Now I am thinking in my mod to break down religions into three major categories. I want to do this to try and replicate religion in China with Confucianism, Buddhism, and Daoism. I can also use this with Christianity and Vodou, and etc.

Now I am thinking these three categories.
1. More philosophical like Confucianism, Stoicism, and etc.
2. Typical organized religion. Christian, Islam, Buddhism and etc.
3. Folk religion and practices like Vodou.

What would you recommend? Should all be just in number 2. Or could I throw Jainism in more of folk religions. I know there is no fine line. I want to leave Buddhism in number 2. The Indian religions do not have to go in another category, but if they don't I could use some suggestions as to what to add to the other categories. Anyway thanks ahead of time for reading this. I appreciate all of the info. If there is anything you would want please let me know.
 
Jains are at least as organized (2) as Buddhists; Sikhs also belong here, IMHO. Vedanta would fit well in (1). (3) is a suitable alternative to (2) for Bhakti / Shiva & Tantra.

If you look back at my chart, as a rule of thumb I'd say red arrow = (1) or (2), blue arrow = (2) or (3). Buddhists & Jains could also fit (1).
 
What civ traits would you attribute to the various Indian civilizations? I'm particularly interested in the Chola :) . Also, could you have a civilization called "Tamil" or is it a culture/language of civilizations?
What Tamil is in the real world would be equivalent in game to one of the 5 cultural groups. One could have a Tamil civ, just as one could have a civ called Scandinavia, or Sioux.

I'll do some reading/review and get back to you about Chola characteristics. If you want to give me a list of others, I can suss them out as well.
 
Ogedei asked for some images to help him make a wonder out of

The Great Granary

First things first - this is what we’ve got to work with:
Thumbnail

Doesn’t look like much.

According to Wikipedia: “ The great granary at Mohenjo-daro is designed with bays to receive carts delivering crops from the countryside, and there are ducts for air to circulate beneath the stored grain to dry it.”

And according J. M. Kenoyer (one of the currently prominent researchers into Harappan culture): “Built on top of a tapered brick platform, this building had a solid brick foundation that extended for 50 meters east west and 27 meters north south. The foundation was divided into 27 square and rectangular blocks by narrow passageways, two running east west and eight running north south. A section of the northern foundation had hollow sockets for wooden beams used to support a stairway or wooden structure. Later wells and walls are seen in the foreground.”

So we’ve only got some artist’s renderings, which introduce a lot of speculation. Here are some screen shots from two different reconstructions. I’d note the shipping bay/platform (similar to that used for trucks in modern warehouses), the pulleys for raising and lowering bundled goods, and the awnings on the ground level.
Thumbnail


These photos of other Harappan ruins may be helpful in details such as the brick walls, stairways, etc.
Thumbnail


And here are some reconstructions of other Harappan buildings that may help with more details:
Thumbnail


It’s important to note what Kenoyer goes on to say:
“... the so-called "Granary," a massive building with solid brick foundations with sockets for a wooden super structure and doorways.

The actual function of the building has not been determined because it was excavated by large numbers of local workmen, with no documentation of the stratigraphy or of the precise location of valuable small artifacts.

There is no concrete evidence for it being a "granary" and this term should be dropped in favor of "Great Hall". The building was probably a large public structure, but it is not clear if it was a storehouse, a temple or some form of administrative building.”
 
I was asked for some suggestions regarding including the Chola Dynasty as a civ, especially with regard to their traits.

Cultural Traits
To quote various articles at Wikipedia:
“The Cholas excelled in foreign trade and maritime activity, extending their influence overseas to China and Southeast Asia. Towards the end of the 9th century, southern India had developed extensive maritime and commercial activity. The Cholas, being in possession of parts of both the west and the east coasts of peninsular India, were at the forefront of these ventures. The Tang dynasty of China, the Srivijaya empire in the Malayan archipelago under the Sailendras, and the Abbasid Kalifat at Bagdad were the main trading partners.”
Here is a map of their empire at its greatest extent; much more territory was controlled overseas than in their homeland.



“There is evidence to suggest that even at the time of Parantaka I, there was a considerable navy involved in the numerous invasions of Lanka. Rajendra Chola's naval victories in Srivijaya were a culmination of centuries of naval tradition. All the Tamil kingdoms had some sort of navies in their arsenal.”
“The Cholas continued the ancient tradition and gave much attention to developing their naval strength. The conquest of Sri Lanka and Maldives and the embassies sent to China show the success of the Chola navy.”
So I would say they definitely should have the Seafaring trait. None of the Indian civs in the current AD Beta, for example, have this trait.

Frequent references by their contemporaries are made to the ferocity of their warfare. What today would be considered war crimes, such as the slaughter of civilian populations, were practiced by them to an extent that was repugnant to other Indians. On this basis I’d recommend giving them Militaristic as their second trait.

Filling in a couple of slots on my blank cultural traits chart, here are my first (red), second (blue) and third (green) choices for their traits:



Units & Improvements
Wikipedia: “There is no direct evidence available on the types of ships employed in the navy.” I would favor using any of the naval units already available with triangular sails since this type of sail predominated in the Indian Ocean.

Wikipedia again: “The army was stationed throughout the country in the forms of local garrisons and in cantonments called Kadagams. After the troubles in the Pandya country, Kulothunga Chola I stationed his army in a number of military colonies along the main route to the Pandya country from the Chola land. One such colony was found at Kottaru and another at Madavilagam near South Arcot district in Tamil Nadu.” “There were military colonies known as 'nilai puram'. A nilaipuram contained a number of forts.”

Either as an expensive improvement, or as a small wonder, I’d let them build the Kadagam: combining some features of a coastal fortress (with a bonus to land defense as well) and a barracks. If as a small wonder, it might additionally autoproduce what I’d suggest as their UU -

Cholan UU: Villigal - an Archer (which they organized into separate entities within their military) with enhanced attack numbers & with Amphibious capabilities. I know there is a "Golden Warrior" archer at some stage of development. This unit will probably be suitable to fill this slot.

Leaderhead
A question was also raised regarding a female LH. No historical queens are prominent or listed as rulers, but given the prominence and relative equality of women in Tamil culture at the time this would be reasonable for game purposes. I’d suggest Ventarani as her title - it’s not authentic, but “Ventar” is their title for monarchs, and I made the analogy to the Maharaja / Maharani relationship.
 
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