Elon Musk's Hyperloop super train

Looks like a relatively new concept for fast travel based on older pneumatic tubes technology



http://io9.com/heres-what-to-expect-from-elon-musks-hyperloop-super-1112981270

What do you think? Will this ever happen? Would you use it for transport?

Who's going to pay for it? Who's going to pay for maintenance? For all the maintenance crews to work around the clock to make sure that the tubes are aight? It seems like this would be very very expensive

This looks essentially like a high speed rail replacement - a more expensive one. And high speed rail hasn't taken off in the U.S.. so..

warpus said:

Who's going to pay for it? Who's going to pay for maintenance? For all the maintenance crews to work around the clock to make sure that the tubes are aight? It seems like this would be very very expensive

This looks essentially like a high speed rail replacement - a more expensive one. And high speed rail hasn't taken off in the U.S.. so..

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It's cheaper than the high speed rail project in California.

Synsensa said:

It's cheaper than the high speed rail project in California.

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That's what is claimed, not what is for-true certain.

I do think it would be cheaper then high speed rail.

But I don't think this will happen until at least the year 3000.

I actually don't think it will happen at all in the US. Not for a truly long time. Our government is letting basic infrastructure lapse, that high speed line took a ton of political wrangling and political capital and I don't see the regulatory environment being friendly to an all-commercial venture either.

That's all speculative on my part, naturally.

900 Kilometers per hour does not sound viable. Probably in more than one sense of the term.

Edit: Google'd it and it seems the current fastest train only runs at half of that speed (a bit over 450 kilometers/hour)

Musk is a smart guy and I have faith in his concept from a tech standpoint if he is confident in it, but Im just not confident in it ever getting done. Project of this scale would clearly need government aid and I just dont see the government handing it out.

It's being proposed as a public work project, not a commercial venture. The only commercial venture that would directly benefit Musk is if they equipped the tube with solar panels and all excess power was the property of Musk's solar company in California. Another fun fact about the tube is that the components are compatible with Musk's model of electric cars. A simple addition and the tube could have charging stations along the I-5.

The proposed ticket price is literally just enough to pay the interest on the debt it would incur, so expect that to be $20 + $10 or more. Regardless, a previously 6-7 hour drive turned into 30 minutes is worth a one way $30 ticket.

Regardless of your viewpoint, I am of the stance that the founder of SpaceX, co-founder of PayPal and Tesla Motors, and chairman of Solar City probably knows what he's doing, especially with his team of STEM majors that flock to the appeal of the name of Musk. Hell, the entire character of Tony Stark was based around this guy.

I doubt the opinion of a lowly engineer (or hell, just commoners in general) with nothing to their name really has the authority to say that Musk is blatantly wrong as they a) don't know all the information and b) don't have the credentials to have an influential opinion on the matter. You can say it's not viable all you want but in the end it's not up to you to decide what's viable or not unless it is quite literally your job to.

Edit: As it stands now, the proposed budget is $7 billion but this is likely to increase with legal red tape and incorporated basic wages for the workers of the system. Even if it increases 10x, it is still cheaper than the current high speed rail project at $100 billion.

kramerfan86 said:

Musk is a smart guy and I have faith in his concept from a tech standpoint if he is confident in it, but Im just not confident in it ever getting done. Project of this scale would clearly need government aid and I just dont see the government handing it out.

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With how broken our current national government is probably not on a large scale. Maybe a coalition of local governments could back such a project with the aid of some super-wealthy backers. We do have a lot of millionaires and some billionaires that like to invest in new technology projects.

Kyriakos said:

900 Kilometers per hour does not sound viable. Probably in more than one sense of the term.

Edit: Google'd it and it seems the current fastest train only runs at half of that speed (a bit over 450 kilometers/hour)

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Eh, if you were to crash at such speeds it wouldn't really matter much if it were at 900 km/h or "only" 450 km/h.

Well, maybe to the cleanup crew; the debris might be scattered over a wider area at the higher speed.

Synsensa said:

It's cheaper than the high speed rail project in California.

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The building of the tube would be cheaper? Really? What about all the required maintenance?

Murky said:

With how broken our current national government is probably not on a large scale. Maybe a coalition of local governments could back such a project with the aid of some super-wealthy backers. We do have a lot of millionaires and some billionaires that like to invest in new technology projects.

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Yeah, it's just a west coast project for now, conveniently happens between two cities that Musk often commutes between for his work. If it's a success, I could see it being LA -> Vancouver (with of course stops along the way at places like San Fran, San Diego, Seattle) and then eventually from coast to coast. Imagine LA -> NYC. Huge travel potential, but the east coast is the only place where AmTrak isn't a total bust so it'd be difficult to gain state approval of something this revolutionary.

Still, any place is a win in my eyes.

Edit@Warpus: It is proposed at $7 billion. The high speed rail project was proposed at $50 billion and grew to $100 billion. Yeah, it's cheaper.

Leifmk said:

Eh, if you were to crash at such speeds it wouldn't really matter much if it were at 900 km/h or "only" 450 km/h.

Well, maybe to the cleanup crew; the debris might be scattered over a wider area at the higher speed.

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Yes, but i was thinking in terms of the possible effect ot the passengers who travel in such a speed, regularly or not. I don't recall much of highschool physics related to friction and powers formed in accordance to it (moreso on distinct bodies on the travelling object), but maybe doubling the current fastest speed poses other issues as well, apart from the economical ones (?).

Synsensa said:

It's being proposed as a public work project, not a commercial venture. The only commercial venture that would directly benefit Musk is if they equipped the tube with solar panels and all excess power was the property of Musk's solar company in California. Another fun fact about the tube is that the components are compatible with Musk's model of electric cars. A simple addition and the tube could have charging stations along the I-5.

The proposed ticket price is literally just enough to pay the interest on the debt it would incur, so expect that to be $20 + $10 or more. Regardless, a previously 6-7 hour drive turned into 30 minutes is worth a one way $30 ticket.

Regardless of your viewpoint, I am of the stance that the founder of SpaceX, co-founder of PayPal and Tesla Motors, and chairman of Solar City probably knows what he's doing, especially with his team of STEM majors that flock to the appeal of the name of Musk. Hell, the entire character of Tony Stark was based around this guy.

I doubt the opinion of a lowly engineer (or hell, just commoners in general) with nothing to their name really has the authority to say that Musk is blatantly wrong as they a) don't know all the information and b) don't have the credentials to have an influential opinion on the matter. You can say it's not viable all you want but in the end it's not up to you to decide what's viable or not unless it is quite literally your job to.

Edit: As it stands now, the proposed budget is $7 billion but this is likely to increase with legal red tape and incorporated basic wages for the workers of the system. Even if it increases 10x, it is still cheaper than the current high speed rail project at $100 billion.

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Hey now! Who's saying he don't know what he's doing? He clearly does and the whole thing, though spun as a public works project, is crafted to make him and his companies lots of money in construction phase and by encouraging more use of Tesla products and services.

But that's the issue: as a public works project - it won't work because the US government can't do anything at the moment and California is broke.

You're also buying into the hype surround Musk I think. Sure, he is an incredible entrepreneur and I really do think he and his companies will change the world. But you overlooking that he has a solid history of under-delivering on grand promises. There's lots of technical reasons why this happens, of course, but it doesn't matter because he didn't have to, and certainly should not have, made those grand promises to begin with. Look at the history of the Falcon 9 rocket and you'll see lots and lots of slipped dates and technical issues. I'm sure Tesla motors has many of the same issues.

So what that gets at is that he's a serial optimist and self-promoter and it's really hurt his image among the crowd of technically-minded people who follow him. Like I said, he is incredible, but he's not the second coming like his fanboys would have you believe and he makes himself look really bad at times.

So anyways, getting back to the technical side of it and cost and whatever, I'm just going to call BS on the whole thing up-front and say that while I'm certain it can be done, it can't be done as quickly or cheaply or safely as he posits. Particularly if he's leaving this up to government to build, which just isn't going to happen.

It's a really neat idea and I truly think it could work, it's just politically infeasible at the moment and he's not realistic about the specifics of it either.

Synsensa said:

Yeah, it's just a west coast project for now, conveniently happens between two cities that Musk often commutes between for his work. If it's a success, I could see it being LA -> Vancouver (with of course stops along the way at places like San Fran, San Diego, Seattle) and then eventually from coast to coast. Imagine LA -> NYC. Huge travel potential, but the east coast is the only place where AmTrak isn't a total bust so it'd be difficult to gain state approval of something this revolutionary.

Still, any place is a win in my eyes.

Edit@Warpus: It is proposed at $7 billion. The high speed rail project was proposed at $50 billion and grew to $100 billion. Yeah, it's cheaper.

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Elon has stated this project isn't economically viable at longer distances so don't expect a LA->NYC route, like ever. Probably an LA->Vancouver route wouldn't work either.

As for the rail project and it's ballooning cost, think of it this way:

That project was done with known technology and with some of the infrastructure in place and design studies done on it to begin with. Now imagine a brand new technology and it's new, related infrastructure being put in. How can the price not balloon? And for the record, all of Musk's other companies do not at this point have a record of truly delivering on low cost promises as of yet, and even still you have to factor in all of the truly enormous subsidies that allow projects like Tesla Motors and the Falcon 9 rocket to happen in the first place.

hobbsyoyo said:

Hey now! Who's saying we don't know what he's doing? He clearly does and the whole thing, though spun as a public works project, is crafted to make him and his companies lots of money in construction phase and by encouraging more use of Tesla products and services.

But that's the issue: as a public works project - it won't work because the US government can't do anything at the moment and California is broke.

You're also buying into the hype surround Musk I think. Sure, he is an incredible entrepreneur and I really do think he and his companies will change the world. But you overlooking that he has a solid history of under-delivering on grand promises. There's lots of technical reasons why this happens, of course, but it doesn't matter because he didn't have to, and certainly should not have, made those grand promises to begin with. Look at the history of the Falcon 9 rocket and you'll see lots and lots of slipped dates and technical issues. I'm sure Tesla motors has many of the same issues.

So what that gets at is that he's a serial optimist and self-promoter and it's really hurt his image among the crowd of technically-minded people who follow him. Like I said, he is incredible, but he's not the second coming like his fanboys would have you believe and he makes himself look really bad at times.

So anyways, getting back to the technical side of it and cost and whatever, I'm just going to call BS on the whole thing up-front and say that while I'm certain it can be done, it can't be done as quickly or cheaply or safely as he posits. Particularly if he's leaving this up to government to build, which just isn't going to happen.

It's a really neat idea and I truly think it could work, it's just politically infeasible at the moment and he's not realistic about the specifics of it either.

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Elon Musk would be the one responsible for the contracting of construction.

Regardless, your response just sounds like "I'm right, you're wrong, Elon Musk is totes overrated and the gubbermint sucks." Throw enough money and determination at an issue and it will be resolved quickly. Construction companies lazing about and soaking up time when they're building highways is not a good comparison model as they aren't going to be the ones who construct the tube.

There is a vast list of reasons why he couldn't achieve this or that, and true he should be a little more isolated with his claims, but we will get no where if someone proposes an idea with a direct plan of action and they have the power to make it happen and people just respond, "Haha, not happening."

A little faith and trust can go a long way in making things happen.

I'm uber pro-government and I think the government should be throwing more money at SpaceX, fwiw.

But Elon doesn't have a direct plan of action, only what amounts to a thesis and grand claims. He's also said he won't be involved in building this either. I do think he's an awesome guy as well, I am just trying to point out what I see as obvious flaws in this proposal and the logic you use to defend it.

I am not sure I know what you're talking about with respect to lazing-about construction companies.

Synsensa said:

Edit@Warpus: It is proposed at $7 billion. The high speed rail project was proposed at $50 billion and grew to $100 billion. Yeah, it's cheaper.

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I don't buy it. Why doesn't he builds a short track between two smaller cities, as a test? Setting up the first track to be that long (between SF and LA) and asking tax money for it.. Yeah, I don't think that will ever happen.

Kyriakos said:

900 Kilometers per hour does not sound viable. Probably in more than one sense of the term.

Edit: Google'd it and it seems the current fastest train only runs at half of that speed (a bit over 450 kilometers/hour)

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But the "Hyperloop" is not a train. It is in principle more similar to a hovercraft. Since the air in the tube is thinner, the air resistance the "capsule" travelling inside it encounters is lower, allowing for higher speeds than would otherwise possible.

Also the fact that the "capsule" is inside the tube, separated from the walls by air cushions, it pretty much rules out derailment. At worst the capsule would scrape the walls and come to a stop after a few hundred metres, which is far more benign than what happens if a high-speed train derails (just look at the latest frak up in Spain where the moron killed dozens of people because he forgot to slow down before a bend).

Synsensa said:

Edit: As it stands now, the proposed budget is $7 billion but this is likely to increase with legal red tape and incorporated basic wages for the workers of the system. Even if it increases 10x, it is still cheaper than the current high speed rail project at $100 billion.

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How can you possibly make a ~1000 km railway cost 100 billion dollars?! That's like 100,000,000 dollars per kilometre of track. What are they going to build it of, gold?

(One has to laugh seeing such numbers on one hand, and people claiming that space exploration is too expensive on the other...)

warpus said:

I don't buy it. Why doesn't he builds a short track between two smaller cities, as a test? Setting up the first track to be that long (between SF and LA) and asking tax money for it.. Yeah, I don't think that will ever happen.

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Afaik building something like this can only be profitable in niche situations, specifically when you have two large metropolitan areas separated by at least hundreds of kilometres distance. Any less, and it is cheaper and still reasonably fast to go by car, bus, or a conventional train. Any further, and it is cheaper and faster to use a plane.

The logic is pretty straightforward. I think the main problem with this is that it is "too innovative". People don't like the unknown, and this would be too different from conventional rail (because it is *not* a railway) for the investors to just jump at the idea.

Oh, BTW, a part of this proposal is to make it power itself using solar energy, therefore taking power requirements out of the equation, effectively.

Also the fact that the "capsule" is inside the tube, separated from the walls by air cushions, it pretty much rules out derailment. At worst the capsule would scrape the walls and come to a stop after a few hundred metres, which is far more benign than what happens if a high-speed train derails (just look at the latest frak up in Spain where the moron killed dozens of people because he forgot to slow down before a bend).

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And what if a massive earth quake breaks the tube entirely? Instantaneous deceleration kills man.

Kyriakos said:

Yes, but i was thinking in terms of the possible effect ot the passengers who travel in such a speed, regularly or not. I don't recall much of highschool physics related to friction and powers formed in accordance to it (moreso on distinct bodies on the travelling object), but maybe doubling the current fastest speed poses other issues as well, apart from the economical ones (?).

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Speed itself has no effect on the passengers or anything else. Only acceleration matters.

hobbsyoyo said:

And what if a massive earth quake breaks the tube entirely? Instantaneous deceleration kills man.

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I didn't read the .pdf in detail, but they claim that the way they are going to build it (on pylons) will make it inherently more earthquake resistant and thus safer than conventional rail. I imagine that if earthquake so powerful that parts of the tube cracked were to happen, the air would rapidly fill the tube and stop any capsules travelling inside it due to simple air resistance.

But I also find this objection unfair - if you're travelling in a conventional high speed rail and the train derails due to an earthquake, your chances of dying are just as high. If you're travelling in a car on an elevated highway and the earthquake destroys it, you are also pretty likely to die.

Lesson: don't live in an active seismic zone. And if you do, do not complain about the possibility of being killed by an earthquake at any moment.