Does anyone else miss stacking wars

I guess I see the point about strategy vs tactics, but the truth is, combat was boring before. Building the army was all the fun. In Civ V, I still like building my army, but I find combat VERY enjoyable. Beating a bigger army is very satisfying, and while obviously it's not that realistic, Civ is not a simulation game. Realism is a nice bonus sometimes, but gameplay is most important.

And yeah, combat in Civ V makes me feel smart. It's cheap, because it uses a system that is very tough for the AI to deal with, but it forces me to think a lot about where to place my troops etc, which makes it very satisfying when I do it well. Building a bigger army than your neighbor and then crushing it in a stack war is fine, but not nearly as fun. 1UPT is what has made me more invested in Civ V than any civ before (first time I worked my way up to Deity).
 
If you were having size 40 cities being razed by barbarian warriors, you were clearly doing something wrong! :)

-1 for you if this forums haz it.
 
And is part of reason why I have oppressively large garrisons I don't want to lose a 0.1% chance roll to a barbarian unit and watch my city get razed xD

We can all make up extremely unlikely scenarios and test our beliefs against them. In your scenario, we are supposed to accept a border city has 40 pop and only one defending unit, despite 40 pop being near the end-game.
 
The point I have made several times before is that 1UPT therefore effectively leads to a genre-shift. The strategical aspects of a game are almost per definition less important when higher emphasis is placed on tactics. I become increasingly frustrated when I read things like "in Civ4 you just had to build a larger stack than your enemy". Yes, this is exactly what grand strategy games are about! The challenge is how to successfully accomplish it. Which tracks back to decisions about economy, research, diplomacy etc, i.e. strategic decisions. These decisions exist in Civ5 too, of course, they have just been made less meaningful in favor of the tactical aspects.

The reason I am emphasizing this so much is that I view it as the main divide between Civ4 and Civ5 and their players. There is nothing wrong with having a game like Civ5, but it seems watered down to so many Civ4 guys because of the comparatively meaningless strategy. Whereas I assume that the Civ5 guys actually enjoy the tactical side of the game more. Both paths are fine in general, I would just argue that Civ, as the classical empire building game, should fall mainly into the "strategy first"-category.

This all the way. I also prefer a pretty good system which is pretty well implemented and that the AI can deal with pretty good over a system that might be better theoretically, but is implemented abysmal and obviously can't be handled properly by the AI. That's why I actually don't miss stack of doom warfare because I still have it more or less on a daily basis. And if I want to play a game about tactical warfare I usually play Rome or Medieval Total War.
The half-baked way Civ V tries to mix Grand Strategy and tactical wargame is simply not my cup of tea. My opionion might have been changed if 1UPT tactics actually worked in Civ V. But to force something into a game concept where it does mot really fit, and then deliver it broken - oh well... :sad:
 
Men with axes and perpetual revolution was not really fun.
One tank killed by 12 or 15 archers not more. I like to see that my crossbows are useless against an infantry.

Civ V introduced some strategic things for war really interesting. Land is more important, spot of view too. Civ 4 and before were just build a lot of units and bulldoze another tile after one.
 
Every time a new civ came out and they promised to kill the stack of doom and every time i felt disappointing.
After 4 i had given up and generally had lost interest in the series with no plans of buying future games. Then i came across a news piece where they mention 1upT and my belief in the series has returned.
It's not perfect but it is the first attempt and no matter how bad the game is/has been i couldn't contemplate going back to any form of military unit stacking. If they brought back any form of military stacking i would at best be dubious and highly likely to shy away from the game as it would be a huge step backwards.

The stack system has many significant advantages over 1UPT.

1) It makes war challenging, since the AI is actually able to comprehend it and pose a threat to the human.

2) It requires a lot more thought and skill than 1UPT, especially on higher difficulties or multiplayer, when it often comes down to on par stack vs stack fights.

3) You can move your army in 1 second instead of having to move every single unit every turn.

4) It fits the scale of Civ a lot better.

5) It places higher emphasis on the strategical aspect of the game rather than the tactical one.

6) It avoids awkward mechanics in besieging cities.

7) It's a lot more realistic.

We must be honest and face the truth, namely that 1UPT has many major disadvantages compared to stacking (some even game breaking, like the hopeless AI). Now the stacking system in Civ4 isn't perfect, in particular the way it handles siege units. But it's patently obvious that the future of Civ lies in an improved stacking system and a complete disregard of this 1UPT nonsense.

I have added numbers to your points for easier reply.

Your first point contradicts your second point, comparatively the AI is stupid that is why it can comprehend stack better then 1upT. If stacking required a lot more skill and thought that 1upT then the AI would be able to comprehend 1upT better than stacking and would be better at it and thus war would be more challenging with 1upT.

Point 7 is just a complete joke...it has been thrashed to death in the past and i could probably go on for hours about why those 5 words are wildly inaccurate. In simple terms stacking is like bunching all your troops up into a single mass and throwing them at the enemy. Even the most basic military forces in history with any form of organisation have broken down their forces into individual units because forces work best in that fashion.i.e. specialised sub sections that work together as a whole rather than a mass rabble. In no little part because in the real world a mass of units squashed into a small area work inefficiently and actually tend to interfere with each other which leads us to logistics or point 3.
Many battles have been won by logistics or more specifically the efficient movement of forces and if you push all your forces down a single road for example you inevitably end up with huge traffic jams which hinder your movement. With stacking you can effectively move an infinite number of units through a single point without any consequence, with 1upT you have to plan and organise your movements to make them as efficient as possible...sometime you still get traffic jams but that is like real life where there may not be a perfect answer but you are instead looking for the least worst answer.

Point 4 is a relative and therefore disputable point as there is no real signification of what each unit is meant to represent in real terms, everything in the game is at best a gamey representation of the real world with a liberal amount of artistic licence taken to make the game playable and as much as possible, balanced.

For point 5 i can't really disagree but whether that is good or bad is down to the individual but if you don't like tactical games then one has to ask, why play a game where the tactical element is so prominent?

For point 6 i don't see awkward mechanics i see it as an extension of my first point where it helps to show that 1upT requires more thought and skill than stacking.
 
Point 7 is just a complete joke...it has been thrashed to death in the past and i could probably go on for hours about why those 5 words are wildly inaccurate. In simple terms stacking is like bunching all your troops up into a single mass and throwing them at the enemy. ... In no little part because in the real world a mass of units squashed into a small area work inefficiently ...

Well, a Civ tile is not exactly a "small area". Earth circumference is 40.074 km. So - as an example - one tile on a Civ IV Terra map represents an edge length of 385,32 kilometers or 148.476,84 square kilometers. Should be possible to "stack" quite a handfull of real world units and troops into that space. So please keep on trashing...
 
Fluffball,

I am not really interested in a long discussion, so let me just respond briefly to your first two points. When I say war requires more skill and thought I am clearly refering to the human players, not the AI! That something is challenging for a human says nothing about how the AI is able to handle it. The simple fact is that the AI can deal with stacking much better than with 1UPT, the combat therefore becomes more challenging and requires more thought in Civ4.

What you say about realism really baffles me to the extent that I don't know if you are serious. Yes, you do "bunch up your troops in a single mass" in Civ4, it's called an army, that's how wars are fought... I don't know where you got the idea that nations would spread their forces across the entire land in war. Look at Stalingrad or Verdun, for example. Each would be one square (hex) in Civ, and both places served as battlefields for millions of troops on each side. Suggesting that the traffic jams of Civ5 have anything to do with realism, is a fantasmagorical misrepresentation of the scale of the map. That's not even going into archers shooting hundreds of miles, cities hurling stones just as far before catapults are invented and many more nonsensical aspects from the point of view of realism.
 
I think both are very unrealistic. In Civ V you have Archers shooting things that are hundreds of kilometers away from them, which is of course ridiculous, but stacking misses the subtlety of tactical warfare which Civ V gets to some extent. Use of terrain, which is key IRL, is very limited with stacks.

Basically I think both are pretty bad on the subject of realism. Which is normal : Civ is NOT a simulation game. It should thrive for realism when it can, but gameplay should come first, always.
 
Two units per tile would be nice, and realistic since you wouldn't leave valuable ranged assets unprotected in real life.
It would also be easier for the AI to handle; just hardwire it to move a melee unit together with a ranged/siege unit. Both types of units would be equally important that way also.

2upt please.
 
If you mean stacking wars like the ones "they" used to have in the civilization 4 beyond the sword then yes because the power doesn't get included completely at once. This is why the health from civilization 4 was removed, wasn't it? Because of the units that are almost dead can be sent back to heal while the healthy units get sent into the war next.
 
Background
Civ I - never played
Civ II - really really liked
Civ III + exps - loved
Civ IV and Civ IV + exps - could not like for this one for some reason - It just did not feel like Civ - I don't think I was ever comfortable with my improvements changing names even if they were better afterward.
Civ V - liked
Civ V + exps - currently loving

I do not miss SoD at all. I would not mind and might appreciate an army system. Making a Great General be a requirement might even be nice. It could make the option to plant the GG a little less likely, especially if they brought back colonies. Civs with early GG's may become OP though.

For newer players, colonies were improvements you could build on strategic or luxury resources outside your territory. You could hook them to your empire with roads and protect them with military units. They were nice.

Edit: And I was always hoping for hexes with each new installment.
 
I think both are very unrealistic. ... but stacking misses the subtlety of tactical warfare which Civ V gets to some extent. Use of terrain, which is key IRL, is very limited with stacks.

As said before: tactical warfare never really was in scope of the 6.000-years-of-human-history-empire-builder that Civ was from part I to IV. That one aspect of warfare (the tactics) was never really taken into consideration or been implementet properly does not mean the rest (the strategy) was unrealistic.

Basically I think both are pretty bad on the subject of realism. Which is normal : Civ is NOT a simulation game.

Well, strangely enough that's exactly what's written in both the manuals of Civ IV and Civ V: "history simulation". And it explicitely says "history simulation" not "battlefield" or "tactical warfare simulation".
 
Civ 4 and before were just build a lot of units and bulldoze another tile after one.

As opposed to Civilization V, where the strategy is take advantage of a poor AI and still build a ton of units and bulldoze one city after another?

1UPT is awful for scale, and anybody who actually plays Civilization should know this.
 
As said before: tactical warfare never really was in scope of the 6.000-years-of-human-history-empire-builder that Civ was from part I to IV. That one aspect of warfare (the tactics) was never really taken into consideration or been implementet properly does not mean the rest (the strategy) was unrealistic.

I disagree, because it's a huge aspect of warfare. Roman consuls and emperors didn't just send armies and expected things to work out, they were heavily implicated in the actual tactics. Same with someone like Napoleon.

Admittedly that is not true of every political leader, especially modern ones, but prowess at warfare has always been a big part of being a good leader in human history.

As far as Civ being a simulation game, ok I guess. It's hard for me take that seriously with leaders that live for thousands of years, small number of cities, civs like America spawning in -4000, the calendar being BC/AD regardless of when christianity is actually founded (if it's founded at all) etc.
 
I disagree, because it's a huge aspect of warfare. Roman consuls and emperors didn't just send armies and expected things to work out, they were heavily implicated in the actual tactics. Same with someone like Napoleon.

The fact that rulers in some cases also took over the position of a field commander or genereal in personal union does not mean that tactical warfar is automatically part of a rulers "job description".

As far as Civ being a simulation game, ok I guess. It's hard for me take that seriously with leaders that live for thousands of years, small number of cities, civs like America spawning in -4000, the calendar being BC/AD regardless of when christianity is actually founded (if it's founded at all) etc.

Well, here's the definition of Simulation taken from Wikipedia:

Simulation is the imitation of the operation of a real-world process or system over time.[1] The act of simulating something first requires that a model be developed; this model represents the key characteristics or behaviors/functions of the selected physical or abstract system or process. The model represents the system itself, whereas the simulation represents the operation of the system over time.

In that context I have no problems at all with abstractions or simplifications in the simulation modell for gameplay sake. I am sure it would be pretty confusing to have leader traits change every third or four turn. Or how would you know when to start counting BC as long as you don't know when christianity will actually be founded?
 
Combat in cIV depended on efficient use of collateral damage in your own borders on your vast road network. Every tile had a road for near unlimited movement in your borders. When war was declared you waited in your borders for the stack of doom to step off rough terrain and onto a flat grassland. Then legions of siege, outdated worked almost as well as state of the art, would suicide until every unit was slightly wounded except for the top defender. You then send in one nutcracker unit to wound the top defender. After that mopping up the wounded stack was easy. Your best units could then take his wounded units and since all combat was to the death his stack would quickly disappear. A great general was used to make a medic and was never used in combat. Your most experienced units were only used in mop up operations since 95% odds meant you'd lose once every five fights or so.

I don't miss it in the least.
 
I personally don't miss the SOD at all. There was just no skill in sending a mass stack to attack the enemy, in my opinion. Sure it was fun for a little while, but it soon wore thin as it became so easy to take over a city. I have a very similar point of view to PVTJAVA concerning playing civ, apart from the fact I didn't play civ2 at all.
For me the need to place your units in certain strategic positions is far more entertaining and challenging than just attacking with a ridiculously large stack. The outcome was always who had the biggest stack, and the war was over very quickly either way. Brave New World is a very entertaining game which doesn't seem to go stale with me, partly due to the 1UPT.
 
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