Japan worthless?

Consider also that in combination with land based anti-air you effectively shut your opponents air-force down (comparable techs assuming) and that the anti-air most assuredly wont be an option. Given all that I cant say that it is a unit that must be thrown in the garbage can.

Maybe. And maybe only, as fighters have a way larger interception range than those land based AA units.

But interceptions are not the only use for fighters. They are important for air superiority (now, I have to admit; not pre BNW) and they are important for their reconaisance range. You should not forget these functions!

That's why I proposed to buff exactly them. (Repeated here for compfort reasons: An additonal air sweep and/or an increased sight range)
 
The notion that "Japanese samurai fought for honour and did not care about the money" is utterly wrong.

It is true that bushido codex stated that samurai should not care about such mundane things, but Japan before Meiji restoration was a classic feudal system, quite similar to Europe. The vassals were rewarded with land, or with monetary equivalent measured in "koku", which was roughly the amount of rice that could feed a man for a year.

The daimyo had to use this money to pay for the equipment of their soldiers, so more income meant more troops, and thus more influence.

You can bet your behind that they cared. It was their measure of success on the social ladder.
 
Maybe. And maybe only, as fighters have a way larger interception range than those land based AA units.

But interceptions are not the only use for fighters. They are important for air superiority (now, I have to admit; not pre BNW) and they are important for their reconaisance range. You should not forget these functions!

That's why I proposed to buff exactly them. (Repeated here for compfort reasons: An additonal air sweep and/or an increased sight range)

Not forgetting just forgot to post them for the arguments shake, thanks for adding :D

You can bet your behind that they cared. It was their measure of success on the social ladder.

Honestly now, was there ever a people that care not for material gain? OFC their guidelines as per every civ are romanticized in public minds, and sometimes it happens so much as to make the actual truth be completely matchless with the romanticized version.
 
As something of a Japanese scholar and with Tourism in the game, perhaps the Japanese are more enthusiastic travellers. Of course given how cultural victory works this would be bad, but some sort of economic bonus in the Industrial age combined with a negative penalty towards giving away more tourism to Civs they admire.

This would give both the we need more production to kill more crowd a reason to take Japan and perhaps wait until the Zero to launch their offensive and for everyone else, what is more Japanese than a tourist?

Call the negative special ability omiyage and you're golden.

You could go another route and give them a super garden, but another Civ already has one, some bonus towards nature harmony like the Celts would be appropriate to Shinto and could be called of course "wa".
 
Though the original posting was clearly trolling (calling a Civ "worthless" :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:), this thread at least has spawned several thoughtful replies. Japan has been hurt by changes in gameplay and are currently underpowered, but they are not "worthless" and these forums have whole articles on how to play Japan well. adwcta made an amazing post earlier that I wholeheartedly agree with and encourage everyone to read. In addition to his post, I have some quick thoughts:

*Bushido: Japan's UA clearly has been hurt by the changes post-G&K. Not only has the negative modifier for damaged units (which Bushido negates) was changed from a -50% maximum to -33%, but the change to the 100hp system means units spend less time in the red (in other words, units need Bushido less often). The developers have very recently said that they're taking a look at Japan because the UA is less effective now, and, worse yet, Bushido is a passive ability that doesn't effect how the player plays. If Japan's UA is changed, the developers have said they are looking to make it more active (i.e., not the passive "obvious" choice that people keep citing to of being more resistant to tourism - that will not change a player's gameplay the way the developers want).

*Samurai are an amazing unit. Let's get this out of the way: Samurai do not obsolete with Gunpowder. They obsolete with Metallurgy. Musketmen, which are only slightly stronger in base strength than Samurai, co-exist with Samurai. And Samurai upgrade into Musketmen at a pittance. A Samurai can be popped from a city with the Siege promotion, Great Generals 2 (which does produce a TON of Great Generals over the course of a game - great for snatching strategic resources), and then can instantly be upgraded into a Musketman to get your Iron back for your next Samurai. Rinse, repeat, and enjoy your swarm of Samurai Musketmen (or Riflemen, or Great War Infantry...) for the rest of the game.

*The Zero: Does suffer from the fact that it's a late game unit. And a unit that doesn't see much play because 1) it's situational; 2) fighters aren't a very good value compared to bombers; and 3) the AI traditionally hasn't managed its air force well. That last part is indeed changing in BNW. As a defensive unit, the Zero does an amazing job, but because it's largely never seen and not needed, to most players it will be lackluster.

Japan deserves some scrutiny with the changes in game play Civ5 has seen, certainly. The Samurai really carries Japan, in combination with Bushido. But that combination is still powerful in the hands of a competent player.

Japan needs a major cost reduction to military. It is in their lore. People didn't fight for money. They fought for honor. Lives were dedicated entirely to the daimyos. This should be reflected with 25% unit upkeep. So they spend 75% less to upkeep their armies.

Historically, this statement is on very shaky ground. Samurai during the warring states era (Oda Nobunaga's era) were mercenaries or fought for their livelihood by supporting their feudal lord. Honor had very little to do with the Samurai (in fast they're the villians of a lot of historical tales) until they came to be romanticized after Cmdr. Perry broke Japan open to foreign trade.

Not to mention your proposal is like Germany (who are more often mention for a overhaul than Japan), the Zulu, and the Ottomans.

And we've got enough faith civ's, really. The focus on warfare is certainly appropriate for Japan. I haven't played it recently, but the UA was originally considered to be extremely powerful, so they must have nerfed it or something.

The samurai itself is fine, it's the mayfly-like lifespan that longswordsmen have before musketmen appear that's the problem. They need to rework the tech tree so that there's more of a gap.

As I and other posters pointed out, Bushido was indirectly nerfed by changes in gameplay mechanics.

And as I describe above, the short time between Longswords and Muskets is actually a boon the Samurai, not a hinderance. You actually have all the way until Metallurgy to keep producing swarms of Samurai that can be quickly upgraded to Rifles.

Their isolationist tendencies could be interesting for a UA. Give them a resistance to other civ's tourism (related to open/closed borders perhaps?). Maybe even grant them immunity to ideological unhappiness?

The Devs have said they're looking to make Japan's UA more active and less passive. Your proposal would make Japan an annoying AI, but not more fun to play.

Yes they are terrible. What is so special that they start with Shock I promo. Seriously they are very underpowered. They could have made them a really badass UU & a game changer instead of bland bonuses.

First off, Samurai have Great Generals 2 in addition to the free Shock 1 promotion. Secondly, the free Shock 1 means a new Samurai born in a city with a Barracks and Armory gets a free Siege promotion. A few Samurai will absolutely savage a city on open terrain. It's amazing how quickly they fell a city like that.

The UUs aren't fantastic, sure, but the UA is more-or-less priceless when it comes to taking cities, especially in the early game.

This is certainly true. If you're having a tough time taking a city, Bushido does help you power on through. Even now in BNW.

Well, I still highly doubt Samurai are that good on Prince, but I only played Prince once and it was Persia with it's crazy move bonus, so the game was decided long before Longswordsmen.

I consistently find Samurai to be good on Emperor. I'd imagine you'll find players who can tout their usefulness on Immortal and Diety. They could seem underwhelming to a player who's not paying attention, but there's a reason most of the Japan War Academy article focuses on them: they are deceptively AMAZING.
 
I had ten caroleans, all ready to fire at the samurai scum...And they charge and kill every unit I had:eek: They are so overpowered, here I thought caroleans were the most beast units 'til later eras :sad:
 
*Samurai are an amazing unit. Let's get this out of the way: Samurai do not obsolete with Gunpowder. They obsolete with Metallurgy. Musketmen, which are only slightly stronger in base strength than Samurai, co-exist with Samurai. And Samurai upgrade into Musketmen at a pittance. A Samurai can be popped from a city with the Siege promotion, Great Generals 2 (which does produce a TON of Great Generals over the course of a game - great for snatching strategic resources), and then can instantly be upgraded into a Musketman to get your Iron back for your next Samurai. Rinse, repeat, and enjoy your swarm of Samurai Musketmen (or Riflemen, or Great War Infantry...) for the rest of the game.

You are right about the getting obsolete thing. Oh my bad memory, sorry. :crazyeye:
But anyway I would still say they are in no way AMAZING. Shock I, yeah good, they start with 15% bonus & access to siege/march earlier. But the problem is that they have only shock I so only part of your samurais are going to get those promos faster because generally terrain is mixed, some open & some rough. And a sensible player (even AI) try to station their units on hills/forests. So if you go all the way shock I/II/... your army won't succeed well.
Secondly GGII might sound good but believe me getting 1st 2-3 GGs quickly might be exciting but after that their value diminishes greatly. Plopping citadels can be good stuff at times (grabbing resources/ helps in conquering an otherwise impossible city) but that is very situational.

I think if you compare samurais with any more than decent UU, you'll realize that they aren't very flavourful or powerful. Just like some people here thought that Sea Begger was the best UU in the game because it starts with supply & coastal I, I think you are overestimating shock I & GGII promotions a bit. ;) I won't dare to say it is the worst unit, but it is nothing to be very excited about.
*The Zero: Does suffer from the fact that it's a late game unit. And a unit that doesn't see much play because 1) it's situational; 2) fighters aren't a very good value compared to bombers; and 3) the AI traditionally hasn't managed its air force well. That last part is indeed changing in BNW. As a defensive unit, the Zero does an amazing job, but because it's largely never seen and not needed, to most players it will be lackluster.

Japan deserves some scrutiny with the changes in game play Civ5 has seen, certainly.
Agreed.


First off, Samurai have Great Generals 2 in addition to the free Shock 1 promotion. Secondly, the free Shock 1 means a new Samurai born in a city with a Barracks and Armory gets a free Siege promotion. A few Samurai will absolutely savage a city on open terrain. It's amazing how quickly they fell a city like that.
I explained the shock I argument above. And I over-reacted a bit, samurai certainly doesn't suck that much but I am still not convinced that it is a really good UU, just an average one. Sure it is better than Maori & other bad UUs but against any more than decent UU I wouldn't go in favour of Samurai probably.
 
I would be satisfied with discussion if they actually reflected good use of Samurai. The misconception that Longswordmen obsolete with Gunpowder would never get past a Samurai user, because cheaper production with gold upgrade is one of its less obvious advantages.

The shock/drill bonus promotion is often simply taken at face value. What it really means is not so straightforward.

For instance, what about Samurai that don't promote down Shock? A Japan player would tend to have these as legacy Warriors and Swordsmen. If the terrain is Rough, he will tend to already have Rough promoted units (and he's slightly more incentivized to promote that way so his legacy units gain a promo on upgrade. Those units will generally become Drill 2/Shock 1. These are useful but not exciting.

The truly unique advantage Samurai offer is Siege, Medic 2 and Cover 2 units. A multi promoted Cover/Drill/Shock is also useful for tanking. The Medic 2 is noteworthy as the only way to get one of these is to pit a Medic unit in pitched battle until it promotes to Medic 2; or have a Brandenburg. With Medic 2 in play, a bunch of Samurai can heal as fast as Immortals. Against Cities and ranged units, a Cover 2 Musketman backed by a Medic 2 is quite hardy.

For my part, I do not consider Samurai as good as Longbowmen, Keshik, and Camel Archers; but I absolutely consider them on par or better than Janissaries.
 
If you attack with wounded units you really don't have a clue how to play this game. So Japan is basically a noob-trap.
No one likes their UA, and their UUs are really awful as well. It just ain't right when Samurais get slaughtered by Impis in close combat... Thats a rage quit right there. Really nice they will get changed. I just hope they give the Samurai a big boost as well. It should be one of the best units in the game.
 
The truly unique advantage Samurai offer is Siege, Medic 2 and Cover 2 units. A multi promoted Cover/Drill/Shock is also useful for tanking. The Medic 2 is noteworthy as the only way to get one of these is to pit a Medic unit in pitched battle until it promotes to Medic 2; or have a Brandenburg. With Medic 2 in play, a bunch of Samurai can heal as fast as Immortals. Against Cities and ranged units, a Cover 2 Musketman backed by a Medic 2 is quite hardy.

For my part, I do not consider Samurai as good as Longbowmen, Keshik, and Camel Archers; but I absolutely consider them on par or better than Janissaries.

Seriously?

Firstly you need to spend some gold on samurai to make it musket, janissary will start as it is. Secondly janissaries get huge attack bonus (25%) & have 50 HP heal on kill. I would take these boosts any time over quicker march/heal for my open-terrain specializing warriors only (rough-terrain fighters would spend the same time getting all those juicy promos).
 
If you attack with wounded units you really don't have a clue how to play this game. So Japan is basically a noob-trap.

That's mostly true, but there are a couple of situations where you're incorrect. One is sieging cities with melee units (which is easier to do in the early game); gaining control of the territory and stopping the city from bombarding is tactically advantageous, so it's worth throwing attack after attack at the city. Second is the fact that Bushido makes Japan's airforce a power to be reckoned with, and allows you to keep bombing even with damaged units because they're less likely to die.

Also, I just had a Scout survive a swarm of barbs with 1HP solely because of bushido. :p
 
That's mostly true, but there are a couple of situations where you're incorrect. One is sieging cities with melee units (which is easier to do in the early game); gaining control of the territory and stopping the city from bombarding is tactically advantageous, so it's worth throwing attack after attack at the city. Second is the fact that Bushido makes Japan's airforce a power to be reckoned with, and allows you to keep bombing even with damaged units because they're less likely to die.

Also, I just had a Scout survive a swarm of barbs with 1HP solely because of bushido. :p

Well said. The concept of Bushido is interesting (a bit passive though) and it worked really well initially in vanilla ciV. But since G&K it has been nerfed quite a bit. Still changing your style to match the UA isn't really a bad thing, it creates variety & flavour among different civs.
 
Seriously?

Firstly you need to spend some gold on samurai to make it musket, janissary will start as it is.

Haha, really? You're just ignoring the added hammer cost? Okay.

Know how awesome Panzers are? They come as tanks! so you don't have to spend 700 gold upgrading it from a horseman. The game practically gives you 700 gold each time you build a Panzer. Germany is so OP.

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To whoever said only n00bs attack with injured units... I would say only n00bs NEVER attack with injured units. A well positioned bow on hill is perfectly safe early game even at less than half health. Your siege units will be injured until artillery. Heck, combat strength affects defense too, so your melee line (even if you just stand there and hit "fortify) will stand up to more hits, while healing. In 1upt, it's quite valuable. Also, most of your attacks with Air units are injured. Japan, Ethiopia, and America are the only civs that have an air advantage. Such a wrong blanket statement about how to use a military in Civ.

.....

I also don't understand how more people don't see the value of GG citadels. On Deity, it allows me to defend with 1/3rd of the units I would normally need (so, something like 1/10th the AI army). That's a lot of saved maintenance cost (like 30gpt in the mid-game). As Japan, once you have planes and ships that can actually do something, you want to play defensively on the ground and aggressively in naval/air, since that's your strength. Citadels fit that perfectly. Also, side benefits for CS quests, Mausoleum, and Autocracy lvl-1 culture tenant (which, is surprisingly useful).

I don't know, Japan could use a slight buff. Slight. Does not need an overhaul, or anything ridiculous like that.
 
Haha, really? You're just ignoring the added hammer cost? Okay.

Know how awesome Panzers are? They come as tanks! so you don't have to spend 700 gold upgrading it from a horseman. The game practically gives you 700 gold each time you build a Panzer. Germany is so OP.
I would recommend you to spend some more time reading this thread than simply criticizing my point out of context.

My point was that muskets quickly replace samurais as there is only one tech difference between steel & gunpowder. So in order for samurai to stay in power you need to quickly upgrade samurais to muskets. However janissaries already start as muskets, indeed they cost more hammers but upgrading with gold is generally inefficient than straight forward spending 1-2 more turns creating a unit.

Regarding your panzer point, imagine you have an option to create horsemen or Panzer, what option will you choose. Creating horsemen with low production & then spending tons of gold to upgrade it to panzer or directly creating a panzer for relatively higher production? This is essentially the case with samurai/muskets because they are available at approximately the same time.
 
I don't think Japan is any more warlike than a lot of other countries. If you want to do something appropriate for Japan, maybe something having to do with xenophobia. They met the West and a while later they just decided they didn't want other cultural influence so they cut themselves off from the rest of the world. Not sure how you'd do this... Maybe make it so that Japan can stop all espionage against it, or it can cut itself off with trade (for what reason, I admit I don't know).
 
I would recommend you to spend some more time reading this thread than simply criticizing my point out of context.

My point was that muskets quickly replace samurais as there is only one tech difference between steel & gunpowder. So in order for samurai to stay in power you need to quickly upgrade samurais to muskets. However janissaries already start as muskets, indeed they cost more hammers but upgrading with gold is generally inefficient than straight forward spending 1-2 more turns creating a unit.

Regarding your panzer point, imagine you have an option to create horsemen or Panzer, what option will you choose. Creating horsemen with low production & then spending tons of gold to upgrade it to panzer or directly creating a panzer for relatively higher production? This is essentially the case with samurai/muskets because they are available at approximately the same time.

However you throw out of the window the fact that you can delay their upgrades and keep collecting promotions till they are totally obsolete. A well upgraded army can eat through an army of the next era with little difficulty. Same for the panzers and whatnot. More so in fact that said panzer runs the chance of been a medieval unit that reached that point.

I don't think Japan is any more warlike than a lot of other countries. If you want to do something appropriate for Japan, maybe something having to do with xenophobia. They met the West and a while later they just decided they didn't want other cultural influence so they cut themselves off from the rest of the world. Not sure how you'd do this... Maybe make it so that Japan can stop all espionage against it, or it can cut itself off with trade (for what reason, I admit I don't know).

Yes however that isolation led to a civil war when it ended and from there forward the Japanese had ingrained themselves to the west completely (WWII aside)
 
However you throw out of the window the fact that you can delay their upgrades and keep collecting promotions till they are totally obsolete. A well upgraded army can eat through an army of the next era with little difficulty. Same for the panzers and whatnot. More so in fact that said panzer runs the chance of been a medieval unit that reached that point.

You missed the point. A poster claimed that Samurai in current state are just as good as janissary if not better. (due to earlier access to march & siege). So I made a small comparison of why would janissaries be able to wipe the floor with samurai upgrade to muskets.

And there is really no point in delaying gunpowder. You can train both Samurai & muskets at the same time. Create samurais & then upgrade them to muskets to get your iron back plus increased strength plus you retain Samurai promotions. The limiting factor however is the gold cost for upgrading as mentioned in my previous post during head to head comparison between those two UUs.

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I'm not 100% sure about the whole 'isolationist' slant being put on Japan, yeah, they were, but for me they're a warmonger civ and once you start chucking that out and replacing it with fine tuned historical isolationist behavior advantages, it doesn't seem so much like Japan, I dunno maybe I just don't like change haha, plus, one of the big problems with Bushido is that, good or bad, it is passive and boring, not changing playstyle, whereas a tourism decrease or whatever would be exactly the same if not worse, so for me, that won't do.

Personally, I like the idea of the Bushido UA being changed to have a warmongery, yet still cultural slant, since Bushido obviously left a huge cultural impact on Japan. I like the idea of a bonus for every time a unit dies on attack? I dunno how underpowered that would be, it would depend on the benefits but maybe either culture bonuses, like twice their strength, or golden age points, or something like that? that on top of the units fight at full strength might make Japan fun to play again, while staying non-passive since it changes the way you look at unit defeats, having said that, you really shouldn't lose units on attack, since the thing pops up saying they'll die, but hey, if it was on defense it would be OP and resemble the Aztec bonus too much, maybe Japanese units have a 33% chance to survive suicide attacks but still gain those golden age points or culture?

As for the Samurai, a promotion that increases its combat strength the closer it is to death? Or a threshold thing, where say when it reaches under 25 health it increases its strength by 3, XP gain and MP?

And finally, the zero, bin it, ahahha, I'm all for remembering that time in Japans history, but I dunno, it comes late, which wouldn't be a problem if it were relatively more powerful, but as it stands, it isn't. Either improve it, drastically, with huge promotions, maybe a big bonus against ships and an ability to perform a kamikaze attack? Or replace it, the Dojo idea I've seen tossed around that gives XP to garrisoned units is a nice idea.
 
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