VainoValkea
Emperor
I like citadels, they're a good way to improve defenses against a warmonger with a superior army.
Great Generals mostly useless?
- Thread starter Rohili
- Start date
Having an extra GG can also allow you to quickly snap up borders that might be contested later but aren't yet - nothing like settling a city close to a neighbor and claiming all those neutral tiles to choke off their growth (especially if this forms a military bottleneck)
Lots of rough terrain also makes Citadels grand - with a couple well-placed Citadels and the Great Wall, you can turn defensive wars into grand slaughterhouses for any belligerent types and expand without hardly firing a shot.
GG is useful for me, in higher difficulties sometimes 1-2 citadel gives huge impact to heavily fortified ICS enemy especially near the capital. As for great admiral indeed it is not as useful as GG, although u can explore ocean in early game but the benefit is so little compare if you take another GP from liberty finisher, 4 movement damn slow.
Personally i think admiral should've an ability to create 1 or 6 hex friendly tiles to heal those navy.
Personally i think admiral should've an ability to create 1 or 6 hex friendly tiles to heal those navy.
TomKQT
Prince
- Joined
- Oct 25, 2010
- Messages
- 525
You mean the citadel? That definitely was a policy, but I don't remember which one. Normally the citadel doesn't do anything good for the tile besides the defence bonus.
He should at least be able to move with the ships. He should get the movement bonuses from wonders and policies and/or start with more movement points.
Honestly, I've never used his healing ability. But if I remember correctly, it's a one-use feature, right? That's useless. I think he should rather either expand borders on water (similar to great general), or provide healing to nearby ships like if they were in friendly territory (without spending the admiral).
I somewhat agree with the OP. It is not that GGs are useless. The combat bonus is very useful but you only need 1-2 GGs for that. Yes citadel is powerful, but it is very situational as well. Now that is the problem. Unless you want to grab a resource, loosing a war or badly stuck in sieging enemy only then it is useful. These circumstances rarely occur.
I would say to give GG another ability which grants experience to a single unit. This could be very helpful in any situation. Another method of solving this issue would be to give citadels some good yields so it's useful even when say your empire borders have quadrupled in size.
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I would say to give GG another ability which grants experience to a single unit. This could be very helpful in any situation. Another method of solving this issue would be to give citadels some good yields so it's useful even when say your empire borders have quadrupled in size.
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I think, Great Generals are like money: If you have to moch of them/it, just use them/it!
- I remember games, where a citadel won me the game. I just conquered an enemy front city and the enemy's army wasn't broken by any means. Wave after wave he attcked what was previously his. I would lost the city for sure, hadn't I placed a citadel in front of it (so, in the enemy's attack path). With the citadel, I was able to deffend the city, break the army and keep conquering. (All this happend in G&K and I know for sure I would have lost the city, as this was one of these 'reload-to-try-another-strategy'-cases. After this experience, I use GGs usually in this kind of situation.)
- Even when deep inside your territory, a citadel isn't necessarily useless. Think of rebels. They are way more likely in BNW then they were before.
- Citadels are very useful to prepare an attack. Sometimes, when forrested hills prevent your catapults tu set up, grabbing the terretory with a GG may be very helpful.
Generally spoken: You can not have enough GGs! If you have plenty of them - use them! Why not?
- I remember games, where a citadel won me the game. I just conquered an enemy front city and the enemy's army wasn't broken by any means. Wave after wave he attcked what was previously his. I would lost the city for sure, hadn't I placed a citadel in front of it (so, in the enemy's attack path). With the citadel, I was able to deffend the city, break the army and keep conquering. (All this happend in G&K and I know for sure I would have lost the city, as this was one of these 'reload-to-try-another-strategy'-cases. After this experience, I use GGs usually in this kind of situation.)
- Even when deep inside your territory, a citadel isn't necessarily useless. Think of rebels. They are way more likely in BNW then they were before.
- Citadels are very useful to prepare an attack. Sometimes, when forrested hills prevent your catapults tu set up, grabbing the terretory with a GG may be very helpful.
Generally spoken: You can not have enough GGs! If you have plenty of them - use them! Why not?
VainoValkea
Emperor
Historical landmarks does that. +2 culture for each GP improvement.
sonicandfffan
Warlord
I have done it before but the other civ refused to declare war on me, possibly because it saw the troops I had amassed on its border just waiting for an excuse to attack
But again, that is not really a military benefit but a diplomatic benefit.
Also you still get the warmonger penalty in BNW, it seems like it's calculated by how many cities you conquer.
Heart Break Kid
Warlord
- Joined
- Mar 27, 2012
- Messages
- 174
I really like the idea of dumping XP into units. If anything maybe they should give that to the Admiral. At least the Great General has something going for him, the Admiral is out of luck. Admiral can't even keep up with his own units.
What's this exploration thing everyone is talking about, can a great Admiral cross ocean even without the tech for it?
What's this exploration thing everyone is talking about, can a great Admiral cross ocean even without the tech for it?
TomKQT
Prince
- Joined
- Oct 25, 2010
- Messages
- 525
Its not useless, every now and then you need 2-3 to cover the front so all units can get the bonus, then sometimes you need to defend certain part of the map - citadels are great for defense. Also stealing luxes from city-states works nicely. GGs are fine.
I_qua_I
Prince
- Joined
- Nov 15, 2010
- Messages
- 562
VainoValkea
Emperor
If you get that GA early enough, you'll have the lead to meeting all the other empires and can focus on the printing press track for finding the WC.
Heart Break Kid
Warlord
- Joined
- Mar 27, 2012
- Messages
- 174
If it is true that you can cross oceans without the tech for it with GAs then that's a good perk. He's still complete , but exploring equates to
- More happiness since you'll have trading partners.
- Generally more knowledge of the map and political climate, including islands with lux resources
- An absolute huge head-start for finding the WC, which gives perm delegate.
Of course it is still very gimmicky and there is pretty high risk. For it to mean anything, you'd have to send out a GA early in times where there are still many Barbarians roaming the oceans, which is a pretty high risk.
Not to mention the practical terms, the chances of getting a Great Admiral that early are pretty low unless you use a Wonder or Social Policy to do it, which isn't worth it in most cases.
- More happiness since you'll have trading partners.
- Generally more knowledge of the map and political climate, including islands with lux resources
- An absolute huge head-start for finding the WC, which gives perm delegate.
Of course it is still very gimmicky and there is pretty high risk. For it to mean anything, you'd have to send out a GA early in times where there are still many Barbarians roaming the oceans, which is a pretty high risk.
Not to mention the practical terms, the chances of getting a Great Admiral that early are pretty low unless you use a Wonder or Social Policy to do it, which isn't worth it in most cases.
Luckystrike77
Prince
If anything GGs should be nerfed, or at least be gained alot slower. The offensive citadel "culture bombs" kills the fun with multiplayer warfare for me. Especially when the enemy manages to get one the tile next to your city.
I know you can raize them etc, but the harm is done to your cities cultural borders bigtime.
I also don't understand the logic in comparing usefullness between Great Generals/Admirals and other Great People. They are generated totally differently, and getting a great general doesent make your next "normal" city generated Great Person more expensive. It's a shame they boosted the Great General abilities so much in Gods and Kings, thanks to whining on the forums they were so weak. To me it has made warfare alot less fun, it's all about getting those citadels in, or hindering the enemy in getting in with a general. With simultaneous turns and "doubble moves" it's almost impossible to prevent it..... sigh. It's the only mechanic in Civ5 I hate with passion. The rest of the game is excellent.
I know you can raize them etc, but the harm is done to your cities cultural borders bigtime.
I also don't understand the logic in comparing usefullness between Great Generals/Admirals and other Great People. They are generated totally differently, and getting a great general doesent make your next "normal" city generated Great Person more expensive. It's a shame they boosted the Great General abilities so much in Gods and Kings, thanks to whining on the forums they were so weak. To me it has made warfare alot less fun, it's all about getting those citadels in, or hindering the enemy in getting in with a general. With simultaneous turns and "doubble moves" it's almost impossible to prevent it..... sigh. It's the only mechanic in Civ5 I hate with passion. The rest of the game is excellent.
VainoValkea
Emperor
No, founding it makes you the first host but gives no permanent advantage (apart from the ones you secure until someone else has a chance to become the host).
Have you considered DoWing the player as he approaches with that slow unit and killing it?
bcaiko
Emperor
Great Generals aren't going to be as useful to a non-warmonger, but they have their value. You may not have much reason to use more than one on the offense, but I've found them invaluable in shoring up strategic resources and extra luxuries for trading.
And as other posters have pointed out, against a runaway AI, a citadel is great for positioning yourself correctly to reduce the chance of losses.
Until you start taking cities, which is how the warmonger penalty is primarily calculated now.
When is extra land not useful? And I usually hold on to my spare GGs until I hit some kind of resource reveal. I can't tell you how many times a spare GG has gained me some coal from a CityState or just on the 4th ring of my capital. And strategic resources have everything to do with warmongering by the mid and late game.
As VainoValkea points out, that only happens if the Historical Landmarks resolution from the World Congress passes. But it is a nice little bonus when it does.
And as other posters have pointed out, against a runaway AI, a citadel is great for positioning yourself correctly to reduce the chance of losses.
Until you start taking cities, which is how the warmonger penalty is primarily calculated now.
When is extra land not useful? And I usually hold on to my spare GGs until I hit some kind of resource reveal. I can't tell you how many times a spare GG has gained me some coal from a CityState or just on the 4th ring of my capital. And strategic resources have everything to do with warmongering by the mid and late game.
As VainoValkea points out, that only happens if the Historical Landmarks resolution from the World Congress passes. But it is a nice little bonus when it does.
