City State Diplomacy Mod (Updated)

Unfortunately I am no modder (yet?) and I also not have the time

(and I have a full-time job, statistician, from 5 AM till 6 PM /with travelling/,
plus a wife, and 4 cats...) :)

I play only at weekends and some hours inbetween ;)
 
I've only used the Messenger so far (super slow game speed but with CCMAT). Production really isn't out of hand. The only thing I've noticed is that the AI likes to build them just to have around. In my current game, Japan has a ton of them but they don't have astrology (or whatever tech allows ocean-going) so they just have a butch of messengers hanging around.



The Forum, relatively speaking, takes a long time to build in my core cities but its pretty balanced.



Yes.

Hmm...I was afraid of that (re: messenger spam). Perhaps diplo units should start with ocean-embark? It would break reality a little bit, but might alleviate that oddity.

Good to hear re: Forum– understandable if it takes a long time on super-slow speed.

Are there no CSs on your island/continent?

Will look into spam problem.
G
 
Unfortunately I am no modder (yet?) and I also not have the time

(and I have a full-time job, statistician, from 5 AM till 6 PM /with travelling/,
plus a wife, and 4 cats...) :)

I play only at weekends and some hours inbetween ;)

Yeah, I've been spending too much time with this mod as well...oh well. Its fun!
G
 
Hmm...I was afraid of that (re: messenger spam). Perhaps diplo units should start with ocean-embark? It would break reality a little bit, but might alleviate that oddity.

Good to hear re: Forum– understandable if it takes a long time on super-slow speed.

Are there no CSs on your island/continent?

Will look into spam problem.
G

Nope. I started off on a small island with only a few islands to my north. Meanwhile Japan got an entire CONTINENT to itself.

The only reason I know the AI is using city-states is that several have popped up in my LoS as new civilizations I meet make allies out of them. Should they start with ocean embark? I....don't see why not. Except they may end up acting like scout units. Then again, without combat strength they're sitting ducks.

Maybe they should get Ocean-embark at Optics if that's possible.

Yeah, I've been spending too much time with this mod as well...oh well. Its fun!
G
 
Nope. I started off on a small island with only a few islands to my north. Meanwhile Japan got an entire CONTINENT to itself.

The only reason I know the AI is using city-states is that several have popped up in my LoS as new civilizations I meet make allies out of them. Should they start with ocean embark? I....don't see why not. Except they may end up acting like scout units. Then again, without combat strength they're sitting ducks.

Maybe they should get Ocean-embark at Optics if that's possible.

Well, the AI won't build Diplo units unless it has seen a city-state and it won't use them as scouts because it doesn't know how. Humans however...

They are pretty expensive and are defenseless, so I think the risks of using them as a scout outweighs the benefits.

The problem, it seems, is that if the AI cannot use the messengers within a few turns the messengers become permanently idle. It seems to be a hardcoded problem. I will look and see if there is an AI define that modifies that hardcoded limit.

You could always attack the Japanese, capture all their messengers and then make lots of friends, no? :)

I will try giving them ocean embarkation and see what the AI does. I imagine they will send them around the world (as they love to befriend the furthest CSs....), but the risk of doing so (Barbarian Caravels) are quite high.

Perhaps I should turn down the positive flavor on the diplo units? Are there TOO many alliances being made?

Thanks for your feedback- its vital!
G
 
You could always attack the Japanese, capture all their messengers and then make lots of friends, no? :)

I got a terrible start that only gave me two horses on the entire island and another 4 on the next.

The Japanese have 20 iron. :lol:

.
Perhaps I should turn down the positive flavor on the diplo units? Are there TOO many alliances being made?

There can never be too many alliances. :p

I wouldn't say so. Some city-states still don't have allies and no single civilization is grabbing them all. It may be making the competition for city-states more competitive though. Have you tried making the Diplomatic units, when they do the diplo mission, reduce other civilization's influence?
 
I got a terrible start that only gave me two horses on the entire island and another 4 on the next.

The Japanese have 20 iron. :lol:

.


There can never be too many alliances. :p

I wouldn't say so. Some city-states still don't have allies and no single civilization is grabbing them all. It may be making the competition for city-states more competitive though. Have you tried making the Diplomatic units, when they do the diplo mission, reduce other civilization's influence?

I would if I could– there are currently no commands for such an action, thus I need access to the core game files. Once I have access, I will definitely implement that (maybe even create a new unit that has a reduce influence power).
G
 
Looks interesting! I'd still like to see Great Artists double as super Diplomats.
 
Looks interesting! I'd still like to see Great Artists double as super Diplomats.

Great Artist's already have the very powerful culture bomb. But maybe the actual Great Merchant should give some diplomacy boost?
 
Great Artist's already have the very powerful culture bomb. But maybe the actual Great Merchant should give some diplomacy boost?

The capacity to mod the game exceeds my desire as well- as soon as I have access to the tasty bits of code inside the games core files...well...it'll be a red-letter day for super merchants!

G
 
The capacity to mod the game exceeds my desire as well- as soon as I have access to the tasty bits of code inside the games core files...well...it'll be a red-letter day for super merchants!

G

Mine too sadly. I wanted to make a Diplomacy mod myself but having to deal with Civilization on Civilization diplomacy. Mostly involving peace treaties and making diplomacy more about immersion and the AI less gamey.
 
This adds a lot of flavor and had made the game (for me) much less drab with regard to CS dealings. Keeping an eye on AI usage of diplomat units and also how it impacts the all too easy acquisition of food and, relatedly, small city spam. Will post more specific feedback when I finally manage to play a complete game without updating something :)

Using this in conjunction with Economy, Tech Diffusion and some barbarian tweaks. Also playing with the Tectonics map script.

BTW separating the medic and Ottoman changes is much appreciated.

Thanks :goodjob:
 
This adds a lot of flavor and had made the game (for me) much less drab with regard to CS dealings. Keeping an eye on AI usage of diplomat units and also how it impacts the all too easy acquisition of food and, relatedly, small city spam. Will post more specific feedback when I finally manage to play a complete game without updating something :)

Using this in conjunction with Economy, Tech Diffusion and some barbarian tweaks. Also playing with the Tectonics map script.

BTW separating the medic and Ottoman changes is much appreciated.

Thanks :goodjob:

Something I've considered (and we can discuss this in greater detail) is adding a FLAVOR_EXPANSION for the Industrial and Modern Era Diplo units (Diplomats and Ambassadors) equal to the FLAVOR_EXPANSION of Settlers (20, to be precise). This might encourage the AI to pick diplo units over settlers (considering they'll probably already have 5-7 cities by the industrial age) and reduce small city spam. Some Civs (looking at you, Russia) will ignore this and continue to spam settlers because their leader flavor for expansion is so high (but that's another problem).

What do you think?
G
 
Something I've considered (and we can discuss this in greater detail) is adding a FLAVOR_EXPANSION for the Industrial and Modern Era Diplo units (Diplomats and Ambassadors) equal to the FLAVOR_EXPANSION of Settlers (20, to be precise). This might encourage the AI to pick diplo units over settlers (considering they'll probably already have 5-7 cities by the industrial age) and reduce small city spam. Some Civs (looking at you, Russia) will ignore this and continue to spam settlers because their leader flavor for expansion is so high (but that's another problem).

What do you think?
G

Do you perceive they aren't building them frequently enough? As I said , I haven't been able to observe the effect on a full game(s). It's an interesting idea that approaches the spam issue from another angle. However, it would (if it has the intended effect) perhaps theoretically yield the AI more food deals with potentially fewer cities. Not that that's a bad synergy.
 
Do you perceive they aren't building them frequently enough? As I said , I haven't been able to observe the effect on a full game(s). It's an interesting idea that approaches the spam issue from another angle. However, it would (if it has the intended effect) perhaps theoretically yield the AI more food deals with potentially fewer cities. Not that that's a bad synergy.

They build diplo units fairly regularly (especially if they've decided to go for a diplo victory)– the bonus of adding a FLAVOR_EXPANSION is that it would make them build diplo units at the same rate + the settler expansion rate (thus adding in more alliances and less imperial bloat).

Interestingly, I find that the AI tends to favor militaristic city-states (especially late game) more than maritime ones– in fact I tested this by placing a militaristic city state in the middle of the map (furthest from all civs) and four maritime CSs near four civs on the corners. All civs ignored the maritime CSs and went after the militaristic CS. Pretty interesting stuff.

Try it out and let me know what you think.
G
 
Will do. Playing on huge maps currently. Probably not the best for quick analysis, but I wanted to see how AI civs would handle the distance.

edit: also just getting familiar with the Live Tuner
 
More idle thoughts.

Is there room for bribery alongside diplomacy? Not the pay-to-sway bribery of Vanilla, but a subtle manipulation that is bribery.

For a certain amount of gold, could our diplomats suspend a city state's agreements with other civilizations?

e.g., Player is Rome, AI is Greece, City State is Carthage (maritime). Greece has influence over Carthage, enough that it receives the Fish food bonus. The player sends a diplomat to Carthage and has a list of options. One such option is to pay Carthage to stop providing Greece Fish for 10 turns. If the player chooses to do this, there is a chance Greece will learn of this activity and relations between the two civilizations will sour.

Is the idea in any way feasible, or even desirable?
 
More idle thoughts.

Is there room for bribery alongside diplomacy? Not the pay-to-sway bribery of Vanilla, but a subtle manipulation that is bribery.

For a certain amount of gold, could our diplomats suspend a city state's agreements with other civilizations?

e.g., Player is Rome, AI is Greece, City State is Carthage (maritime). Greece has influence over Carthage, enough that it receives the Fish food bonus. The player sends a diplomat to Carthage and has a list of options. One such option is to pay Carthage to stop providing Greece Fish for 10 turns. If the player chooses to do this, there is a chance Greece will learn of this activity and relations between the two civilizations will sour.

Is the idea in any way feasible, or even desirable?

Interesting :)
I do hope that civ5 modding lets us be this creative - not only in theory :)
 
More idle thoughts.

Is there room for bribery alongside diplomacy? Not the pay-to-sway bribery of Vanilla, but a subtle manipulation that is bribery.

For a certain amount of gold, could our diplomats suspend a city state's agreements with other civilizations?

e.g., Player is Rome, AI is Greece, City State is Carthage (maritime). Greece has influence over Carthage, enough that it receives the Fish food bonus. The player sends a diplomat to Carthage and has a list of options. One such option is to pay Carthage to stop providing Greece Fish for 10 turns. If the player chooses to do this, there is a chance Greece will learn of this activity and relations between the two civilizations will sour.

Is the idea in any way feasible, or even desirable?

The possibility is there- you could simply have a unit 'turn off' a CSs trait for a few turns. That would be a simple way to do it.

Finding a trigger that does this, though, is the hard part.

Or you could create a diplomatic unit that can pillage w/o declaring war. It could suicide on usage (one-shot destruction of plots of land).
That would fix their wagon!! :)

On another note, is anyone having any odd problems with Great People and the AI? I.e. is the AI using Great People, orr are they just hanging out? Game I played last night Babylon refused to use its Great Scientist from Writing.

Let me know.
G
 
The Diplomacy units are showing up as spearmen again with CCMAT. :confused:
 
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