Late Cannons

fdrpi

Prince
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Here's something I never quite understood: why, from a gameplay perspective, do cannons come so much later than rifling and other early pre-modern tech, directly from catapults and trebuchets? It seems like a long jump, and a big one.
 
I dont know. Historically wise they should come with gunpowder like in RFC. So i guess its for gameplay reasons, to make you choose between cannons and rifles.
 
Cannons don't necessarily come much later than Rifling. Lib Rifling, bulb Chemistry, research Steel is a good strategy for hard wargames.
 
I generally get cannons before rifles - going Chemistry-Steel to get cannons and drydocks and to get going towards railroads.
 
For reference: The tech tree

(Edit: Oh, from a gameplay perspective ... eh)
My interpretation is that the Cannon unit represents an advanced type of cannon in large numbers, which would require modern steelmaking processes (Steel, Chemistry). More primitive cannons could be represented by the ability of all gunpowder units to ignore city defenses (i.e. they're all assumed to have some cannons with them), and also by Frigates and Privateers.

Cannons don't need to come after Rifling. You could beeline to Gunpowder via Feudalism and Guilds, and get to Steel from there through just Engineering and Chemistry. You'd be nowhere near Rifling. If Rifles usually appear far earlier, it's probably because players like the combination of Liberalism, Nationalism and Rifling.

As for the jump from Trebuchets, it is my understanding that there was indeed little progress in siege technology since catapults sometime around 300 BC. The trebuchets in the game arguably represent counterweight trebuchets from the High Middle Ages. I think it's misleading that Engineering appears so early in the tech tree. It costs as much as Guilds, which is two columns farther to the right. The layout is probably this way b/c the link from Code of Law to Philosophy cuts Engineering off. It might be better (visually; no functional change) to move Machinery (also a very expensive tech) one column to the right, attach Engineering to Machinery and make Construction an additional requirement for Engineering. Anyway, what I'm getting at is that the distance from Engineering to Steel isn't that long (although still long).

Flipantropo said:
So i guess its for gameplay reasons, to make you choose between cannons and rifles.
I think so too. I don't know if there were actually nations which manufactured only muskets/ rifles and no cannons, but I think it's conceivable. Rifles are more about precision mechanics.
 
It's probably for balancing reasons as well. Both rifles and cannons are huge upgrades so to easily get both at the same time would probably not be a good idea for gameplay purposes. I suspect that is why it was separated in the tech tree, so you pretty much have to choose one path.

Personally I tend to go either Cuirs or Cannons, and both are very powerful options.

As mentioned Steel isn't that deep either, and it is possible to get it with Liberalism.
 
From a historical stand point in regards to the near east and Europe, cannon actually pre date muskets and other such devices. In western societies it took time to miniaturize the technology to hand held weapons. As experience with the tech progressed, it got small enough for soldiers to wield, ushering in the age of the musket. On a side note, the word cannon is both singular and plural. No need for cannon(s).
 
The game is not supposed to be realistic. If it was bee-lining and extremely "one-sided" research would not be the key to success and many techs would have more than two prerequisites.

(I think in Civ II cannons were much earlier, roughly together with muskets and "dragoons". The civ IV cannon is more like Civ II artillery but of course siege worked differently in the old game, siege works quite differently in BtS vs. vanilla)

That said, I do find it slightly "ugly" to have catapults or trebs together with rifles or cuirassiers (or even stranger combinations).
But Civ is not a historical wargame, rather a strategy game where war is one important element.
 
Used to be, during Civiliz 4 original Vanilla, that you could go for Gunpowder + Chemistry, and start building Grenadiers. Then get Steel and have yourself an army of Grenadiers + Cannons, which was pretty sick because the Grens could kill medieval units and because Grens beat Rifles when attacking. Then Warlords or BTS had to go and add Military Science as a tech :cry: :cry: Does anyone actually want to research Military Science???? Like as a priority? At least Chemistry is cool for stronger workshops and leads into Steel.

I had once played a game as Vanilla Tokugawa (Aggressive / Organized he was better then :cry: I miss you vanilla sometimes), I had a bunch of City Raider 2 and City Raider 3 Samurai. Upgraded to City Raider 2 Grenadier + Cannon and it steamrollers Rifles and everything. Yeah I think Steel is meant to be alternative to Rifling since you can either build Rifles, or counter Rifles with Grenadiers and Cannon.
 
yes, Grenadiers were pretty much nixed to counter for rifles in BtS, that is rather useless except occasionally. If one has no horses they might still be an option but usually not. If one likes this kind of war one has to go either back to vanilla/warlords or play a mod on slow speeds, I guess.
 
One thing around that era I like though is, Cuirassiers exist now :) and Cavalry require Rifling. Before Cavalry didn't require Rifling, just Military Tradition in original Vanilla. That was way too strong, Cavalry multiple techs before Rifles is just silly.
Still love BTS even with some quirks, BTS is super interesting, and now though I feel like the main purpose of the Grenadier is for AIs to build and defend with Grens, (or counter attack!) and wreck my Cuirassier/Cavalry rush. Silly AI why do they build such an eclectic mix of units :cool: I'm always fighting Grens and Muskets and weird stuff when I fight AI :p it's kinda cool to see all these units in use though. Cuz I don't build Grens or Muskets much.
 
yes, Cavalry was overpowered and in vanilla Cossacks even more so, a base strength 18 unit with the tech that yields base strength 12 cuirassiers in BtS.
 
They *were* 18 in original vanilla, I don't know about patches (because I then got warlords and they are only 15 there) but I know what I played a few years ago.
 
That depends. ....cannons are another same era unit with strengths and weaknesses that comes along in that era. The flanking action that the cavalry has on the cannon is bad. You can also get late cavalries.
 
I often end up with very cannon heavy armies while playing vanilla by taking the very appealing tech. path gunpowder-> Chemistry-> steel before heading on towards Railroads
I usually only build a few Musket units before Chemistry as they are not very much stronger than The preceding Medieval units and Chemistry is quite close.
Cavalry multiple techs before Rifles is just silly... Err and what happened.
But you are right about Grenadiers & Cannon being a great counter to Rifles.
They are also essential in stopping Cathy's Damned Cossacks! The Cossacks 18 +50% Vs Mounted ensures that your own Cavalry won't be stopping them anyway.
It is strange how often a large stack of my cannon chose to visit Cathy's Horse pastures just before she Researches/gains Military Tradition.
I am not sure weather the Nerf was needed (in single player) as it is after all Russia's Unique Unit and Frances Musketeers and Hayuna Capac's Quencha loonies seem at least as unbalancing.
 
If cannons and cavalries were along the same tech path with each other than that wouldn't happen. Divided tech paths caused late cannons.
 
If cannons and cavalries were along the same tech path with each other than that wouldn't happen. Divided tech paths caused late cannons.

Nobles Rode horses so Cavalry was king :king: of the battlefield.
Peasants operated cannons so the ruling classes under-esteemed them. A position that persisted until personal valour was no longer required in a general.

Horse drawn Cannons that could keep pace with cavalry advances didn't come into wide use until the North American Confederate/Union war so divided tech paths was the historic norm.
Almost all armies trained/drilled their Infantry (muskets or rifles) Artillery and Cavalry separately (also why Musketeers were unique)

Having three separate tech paths leads to variety which is good for game play and doesn't detract from Civ's version of historic accuracy.

As Serail says if you plan early you can have your first choice of Cav Cannons or rifles at the same time in the game.

Did some testing Vanilla 1.61 Normal map size, epic speed, Spain Starts with Fishing & Mysticism. (assuming no Oracle slingshots and timely resource availability)

Rifles 23532 :science: ;
The biggest costs coming in during the middle Ages No Agriculture or Animal husbandry You got the whip (also banking and Education)

Cavalry 23574 :science: ;
The biggest costs coming in the Ancient (it hits all the expensive techs in column 2) and Medieval ages But you got Animal Husbandry though Agriculture and no Bronze Working for the Whip (also Math, Civil service and Education)[Requires Horses]

To my surprise the low cost winner
Cannons 22528 :science: ;
The biggest costs coming in the classic period and virtually no medieval costs then the big ticket item 5460 Beakers for Steel to finish No Agriculture or animal Husbandry but you got the whip (also Math, Construction and engineering)[Requires Iron]
 
As mentioned they need not come after rifling, not by any means. I cannot speak about this on Deity, but Steel, or hopefully Lib Steel, has some conditions; the more of them are met, the better it is than rifling, cuirs, or cavs:

- Slower game speed setting (weaker draft, 2:move: means less)
- Paucity of tech trading towards nationalism
- If there is use for an early jump on frigates and/or privateers
- Lots of caste workshop land (chem plz)
- Preexisting veteran macemen, or even some ancient units, need action
- A GE is on its way, and you want more of them (ironworks)
 
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