Suggestions for BNW noob

SoonerJBD said:

Religion seems kind of a mixed bag. There are some obvious bonuses, but I'm not seeing many circumstances where I would really want to spend the required resources to obtain a dominant world religion. The local bonuses are nice, I'm just not seeing much benefit to investing in all the buildings and wonders you would need to extend your religion to the majority of other civs.

Click to expand...

That's pretty much how I feel. I kind of wish the game rewarded you more for aggressively spreading your religion. Maybe it does and I just don't understand it yet, but that's been my experience. If I found a religion, I often try to build Borobudur to quickly spread the religion to my cities plus nearby cs or ai to create a bubble of pressure, and then just leave it at that.

The reward is the positive diplomatic boost. If a civ doesn't have it's own religion and you spread your own they will be very friendly with you. Of course this is a big gamble, because if you spread early they could get a religion of their own, and even if they don't on higher difficulties another AI will come and spread like crazy. But if you manage to use that big diplo boost to your advantage while it lasts, you might end up having positive relationships with that civ all game long.

On the other hand there are a lot of founder beliefs that work with spreading your religion to other cities (some work only for spreading to other cities, not your own). They are not that strong but they might give you a good boost at a critical time.

Tithe is a great reason to spread it as far as you can, you can end up with hundreds of got just from your religion. The gold/city and the culture/foreign citizens can also be good.

I think shared religion boosts tourism, as well as the diplo boost.

With Sacred Sites, you don't want to spread your religion outside your borders anyway, cause then other civs can use the buildings and get tourism.

When I switched from Vanilla to BNW the thing that really stumped me at first is how tourism and ideologies work.

Basically you generate tourism from great works and some wonders and when a civ's tourism output reaches a percentage of another civ's culture output they move up a level of influence (through exotic, familiar, popular, influential I think). The base tourism is scaled up through having trade routes, shared religion and open borders.

When you pick an ideology (after you've built three factories) if civs which are more influential over you than you are over them choose a different ideology to you (or you a diff one to them) then you take a MASSIVE happiness hit. Like 10-20, which can totally break your game.

On higher levels it means picking an ideology can be more about damage limitation than going for free policies, and just never ever give anyone OB. You can buy it off the AI if you need it off them. Also build guilds and IMO always convert GA/W/M into Great Works, tho others disagree on that.

BNW loads better than vanilla, hope you have fun wit it.

Keep in mind that you don't need to found a religion to take advantage of the bonus votes in the WC - It's required that the world religion be in the majority of your cities, but not necessarily that you've founded it. Also, voting in a religion that you've founded brings with it a diplomatic hit against any civ that founded another religion, voting in a religion founded by someone else (and is in the majority of your cities) brings a strong diplomatic boost with that civ (but still a penalty towards other civs.) But at prince level, you can consider proposing a world religion with no penalty if you can found a religion, meet everyone, and get printing press before anyone else founds a religion

Going straight from vanilla to everything since then has a lot of considerations, riverside cities are no longer cash cows, economy is more based on trade routes, possibly religion, and trading posts. Religion is new, World Congress is new, Culture victory is completely different and tourism is new.

But one of the biggest considerations is that almost all of the war-machine civilizations came out in later expansions. Aside from Mongolia, the only civ from vanilla with high war tendencies and capabilities is China. But even China is more of a balanced civ than a war machine - paper makers are obviously an infrastructure boost, and extra GG's work equally well as a turtling tactic (having choke-points blocked off with series of citadels,) so even China isn't "all-in" on aggression bonuses. Assyria, Zulu, and the Huns, along with Mongolia, are the civs that have nearly every aspect of their bonuses weighted at "kill everything in sight." So especially at Prince level, I'd recommend choosing one of these civs, barbarians-masquerading-as-civilizations, and pursuing a culture victory. Even if you miss most of the key tactics in achieving a culture victory, you'll get plenty of tourism from stealing their great works, and remember that you don't need to achieve influential tourism status with civilizations that you've exterminated. As far as familiarizing yourself with the new game elements while still having a crazy-fun time, that's my vote: forget Carnivale, chateaus, wonders, WC proposals and internet, win tourism with battering rams, keshiks, artillery, nukes and XCOMs.

claudiupb said:

The reward is the positive diplomatic boost. If a civ doesn't have it's own religion and you spread your own they will be very friendly with you. Of course this is a big gamble, because if you spread early they could get a religion of their own, and even if they don't on higher difficulties another AI will come and spread like crazy. But if you manage to use that big diplo boost to your advantage while it lasts, you might end up having positive relationships with that civ all game long.

On the other hand there are a lot of founder beliefs that work with spreading your religion to other cities (some work only for spreading to other cities, not your own). They are not that strong but they might give you a good boost at a critical time.

Click to expand...

You also take a massive diplomacy hit if you try to spread your religion in another civ that has its own. I went from "friendly" with a civ to being denounced in one turn by proselytizing. If you can get a religion up fast and spread to immediate neighbors, it seems to help keep the peace in the early game. But when you ramp up difficulty, it's really hard to do that. On Prince, I can get a religion and still do whatever else I want to do. That's not the case on something like Immortal. You have to make choices, and I'm not seeing why I would ever choose religion unless there are some very specific circumstances involving very specific civs with religion bonuses. Tithe is great. I immediately recognized that and took it at first opportunity, but I can't imagine it's worth the resources on higher difficulty. I have to spend those resources on something that is going to more directly relate to the victory condition I'm pursuing.

Puhi said:

That's pretty much how I feel. I kind of wish the game rewarded you more for aggressively spreading your religion. Maybe it does and I just don't understand it yet, but that's been my experience. If I found a religion, I often try to build Borobudur to quickly spread the religion to my cities plus nearby cs or ai to create a bubble of pressure, and then just leave it at that.

Click to expand...

The world religion bonus is great when you are going for a diplo victory, but as someone else mentioned, you can get that by letting someone else spread their religion and then voting it in. Actually spending the resources yourself seems like it would be a waste on higher difficulty.

I really think there should be some really big bonus to getting your religion to become the dominant world religion. Something that would really be worth the investment to offset the opportunity cost that comes at higher levels. It shouldn't be required for victory, but it should give more of a viable path to at least one type of victory so that there is some reason to go for religious buildings and wonders instead of those that directly boost culture, military or science, depending on your victory path.

ShakaKhan said:

Going straight from vanilla to everything since then has a lot of considerations, riverside cities are no longer cash cows, economy is more based on trade routes, possibly religion, and trading posts. Religion is new, World Congress is new, Culture victory is completely different and tourism is new.

But one of the biggest considerations is that almost all of the war-machine civilizations came out in later expansions. Aside from Mongolia, the only civ from vanilla with high war tendencies and capabilities is China. But even China is more of a balanced civ than a war machine - paper makers are obviously an infrastructure boost, and extra GG's work equally well as a turtling tactic (having choke-points blocked off with series of citadels,) so even China isn't "all-in" on aggression bonuses. Assyria, Zulu, and the Huns, along with Mongolia, are the civs that have nearly every aspect of their bonuses weighted at "kill everything in sight." So especially at Prince level, I'd recommend choosing one of these civs, barbarians-masquerading-as-civilizations, and pursuing a culture victory. Even if you miss most of the key tactics in achieving a culture victory, you'll get plenty of tourism from stealing their great works, and remember that you don't need to achieve influential tourism status with civilizations that you've exterminated. As far as familiarizing yourself with the new game elements while still having a crazy-fun time, that's my vote: forget Carnivale, chateaus, wonders, WC proposals and internet, win tourism with battering rams, keshiks, artillery, nukes and XCOMs.

Click to expand...

Aztecs were pretty big warmongers in Vanilla.

I won a culture victory on accident with my first game. I was trying to get a diplomatic victory, but on lower difficulty, you almost can't help generating a ton of culture and tourism, particularly with the Maya, when great people are popping every other turn.

Played a second game on King with Shoshone and got my diplo victory. Love the Shoshone perks. Being able to pick your goodie hut bonuses is a huge early game advantage. Workers and settlers and free tech and early social policies. The border bonus is also fantastic. Much easier to grab luxuries and strategic resources without potentially having to build in an otherwise crappy spot to make sure you get that iron you need.

I'm a bit torn where to go next. I need a warmonger game. But I'd also like to try going tall at some point. I'll probably save a Tall game for when I want to get an intentional cultural victory on higher levels. I'm also waiting to play Babylonian until I step up difficulty and really need what seems like a potentially game breaking unique ability.

Thinking maybe Inca. Or Poland. May want to save Poland.

SoonerJBD said:

I really think there should be some really big bonus to getting your religion to become the dominant world religion. Something that would really be worth the investment to offset the opportunity cost that comes at higher levels. It shouldn't be required for victory, but it should give more of a viable path to at least one type of victory so that there is some reason to go for religious buildings and wonders instead of those that directly boost culture, military or science, depending on your victory path.

Click to expand...

Regarding FOUNDING a religion being a big boost towards a victory condition, there is one. World Religion gives a 50% tourism bonus only in the religion's holy city, which is probably your capital, which is probably where the vast majority of your tourism is generated. On Deity, if you want a peaceful cultural victory and you're not playing as Brazil, France, Polynesia, or Maya, that bonus is rather critical. (although I'm always arguing with others [*sneeze* Beetle *sneeze*] that peaceful cultural victory is more of the standard approach for lower levels whereas aggressive culture is considerably more feasible for Deity level, but that's tangential to the point. anyway...)

Regarding founding a religion not being a Deity level priority, there are many very good deity players who still prioritize founding a religion every game - Marbozir being the quintessential example. While I follow the logic that founding a religion is not that big of a priority for the reasons you mentioned, there's still a small base investment that I make almost every game, usually just a shrine in the capital. The reason is that the pantheon is worth that investment. I just figure my default pick (unless the map suggests something else, and hopefully it does) is God-King, which provides 1 hammer/turn. Since the shrine cost me 40 hammers, the pantheon paid for it's own cost in 40 turns, all future hammers are profit, and the gold, research, culture, and faith are gravy. From there, if a religion happens, it happens. But I usually don't put much more of an investment in it. More often I found when I get lucky with a CS quest or settle a religious mountain, or when the opposition simply isn't that interested in religion, which does happen from time to time even on Deity.

SoonerJBD said:

Aztecs were pretty big warmongers in Vanilla.

Click to expand...

See, I don't think so but most of the forum does. Yes, when the AI plays the Aztecs, they're certainly a warmongering civ, but that doesn't mean that's how a human should play them. The AI is also very warmongering as Carthage, but most people don't classify them as warmongering. The Aztecs are my favorite civ, and while their UA is geared towards play which includes combat (which, btw, also works against barb or city state units, or factors in heavily when defending against an aggressive neighbor, so you can utilize the UA without playing aggressively), I consider the defining characteristic of the Aztecs their UB, not their UA. Population means everything in this game, and having their UA in every city (admittedly there are location restraints but when choosing Aztecs you should be trying to find city locations that can utilize it) gives a 15% global growth bonus, possibly more if you're getting extra from lakes as well, which I feel is the best non-UA civ bonus in the game.

SoonerJBD said:

You have to make choices, and I'm not seeing why I would ever choose religion unless there are some very specific circumstances involving very specific civs with religion bonuses. Tithe is great. I immediately recognized that and took it at first opportunity, but I can't imagine it's worth the resources on higher difficulty. I have to spend those resources on something that is going to more directly relate to the victory condition I'm pursuing.

Click to expand...

By “choose religion” do you mean “try and found” or “try to found and spread your religion wide”?

ShakaKhan (sneezes) already laid this out, but the opportunity cost (shrine 3rd in queue) is small compared to 50+ turns of pantheon benefits. And you might found, so the opportunity cost relative to the game long benefits becomes trivial.

But then, some games, maybe one in ten, an AI will enhance before you have a pantheon. So those are eight early turns lost, and that is painful.

ShakaKhan said:

(although I'm always arguing with others [*sneeze* Beetle *sneeze*] that peaceful cultural victory is more of the standard approach for lower levels whereas aggressive culture is considerably more feasible for Deity level, but that's tangential to the point. anyway...)

Click to expand...

I just won my first ever cultural victory at Deity, and it was a peaceful one. (I only declared war once: for my worker steal very early in the game. War was declared against me only once, by Persia, and I don't think either side ever set foot in the other's territory.) I never even used a single concert tour, and the International Games was never proposed. I did use sacred sites with pagodas and monasteries, but I never went beyond my 4-city tradition opener so even that wasn't game-breaking.

Granted, it was as Poland. With like 5 or 6 salts among my first 3 cities. And I never had a real border with anybody (CS allies to my north, a mountain range to my west, CS allies to my south, and the ocean to my east). Also, I only had to attain influential with 2 civs out of the original 7 thanks to Attila and Suleiman. (I had a musician on his way to a concert tour in Brazil FTW when Attila eliminated him, leading to a very anticlimactic victory where my last turn I did nothing but press next turn and suddenly won.)

Point is, I do think a peaceful cultural victory is possible on Deity. But given how many ideal circumstances were handed to me on a silver platter, I assume that it's not usually so easy. My guess is that given less ideal circumstances, peaceful cultural victory on Deity is difficult but do-able. You need so many wonders (and therefore a tech lead) that Poland, Babylon, or Korea are probably better than France and Brazil for it.

fyar said:

Point is, I do think a peaceful cultural victory is possible on Deity. But given how many ideal circumstances were handed to me on a silver platter.

Click to expand...

Yeah, me and the other guy already bombed a different thread over this. Peaceful deity victory is possible, I've done it 5 times before, but not coincidentally with the civs you metioned: Babylon, Korea, France, Brazil, and Maya.
There's no question that it is possible, and don't discredit yourself for the beneficial coincidences that occurred during your game; if they did not occur, I'm sure you still would have achieved the culture victory, just maybe 5-20 turns later.
MY point is not that peaceful Deity culture is impossible, but that aggressive Deity culture is more viable. Frankly, more fun too.

ShakaKhan said:

MY point is not that peaceful Deity culture is impossible, but that aggressive Deity culture is more viable. Frankly, more fun too.

Click to expand...

I think I agree with that. Well, the more viable part anyway. I think it's probably less fun for me... or less satisfying, anyway. What you're describing feels more like a domination victory, which can be fun also, but I just don't feel satisfied in calling it a culture victory.

fyar said:

I think it's probably less fun for me... or less satisfying, anyway.

Click to expand...

which is what we concurred on before, "to each his own." However, I'm a builder at heart, I really am! but I still can't see how turn-clicking the Great Artist counter down is anywhere near as FUN as Keshik hit/runs or dropping the bomb on someone.

beetle said:

By “choose religion” do you mean “try and found” or “try to found and spread your religion wide”?

ShakaKhan (sneezes) already laid this out, but the opportunity cost (shrine 3rd in queue) is small compared to 50+ turns of pantheon benefits. And you might found, so the opportunity cost relative to the game long benefits becomes trivial.

But then, some games, maybe one in ten, an AI will enhance before you have a pantheon. So those are eight early turns lost, and that is painful.

Click to expand...

I'm talking about spending the resources to spread your religion and make it dominant. There are obvious bonuses to founding a religion even on high levels, as I'm finding as I ramp up in difficulty. But I am seeing very little benefit in attempting to spread your religion aggressively. I'd like to see some sort of reward for the religion you founded becoming the dominant world religion such that it would offset the costs associated, which are far too high on higher difficulty levels. I'd even be fine with it being a risk/reward scenario. Right now, I just can't see any victory path where I might put that sort of effort into spreading my religion everywhere. It's simply not worth it no matter what victory condition I'm going for.

SoonerJBD said:

I'm talking about spending the resources to spread your religion and make it dominant.

Click to expand...

Correct. Almost never worth even trying.