Incas, culture victory, immortal

Hey guys I started my first game at Immortal difficulty, my goal is a culture victory. I want to know if my decisions have been somewhate correct until now and what would you have done.
I'm uploading the initial save as well so you guys can check for yourselves.

Firstly, I'm a warmonger not a peaceful player, so take my advice as just my 2c.

Secondly, I don't see anything seriously wrong, except maybe those cities should be a little bit bigger by now. But it's not bad.

I would definitely have pushed the first settler into the hills near the wine, though.

[EDIT: I just noticed the unhappiness. You can't afford for this to happen. Get the luxes worked before you plant the expos. Steal workers if you need to. Unhappiness is #1 killer, IMO.]

Thanks for the advice. Unhappiness only happened for around 4 turns, but yeah it was a miscalculation, I forgot to get masonry earlier and when I noticed it was already too late, kinda noob mistake

Can you explain why would you settle there? I feel I'm not very good at choosing the best spots to settle. I thought the 2 fishes were way too good to lose just because of an additional wine (already had in my capitol)

I'd rather you not settle in place, esp if tundra is visible, meaning you are at the edge of the map... (if this is immortal and I were you, I'd explore a bit more north); probably would settle Cusco where Tiwanaku (nice terrace farm tiles) or Rotterdam (floodplains wheat is amazing) is currently. As of now the capitol is quite food-poor (if you want to wonderwhore for CV, a big capitol is necessary! 99% of getting a good CV game is picking a good capitol spot)

Mistakes I see are overexpanding too soon (unhappiness for one, and you should know the AIs flavors; India is not super-expansive so you don't need to rush); on immortal you can hard-build Petra; Liberty is not that good for a mere 3 cities.

You should also get a few slingers more to hunt barbs for CS/defend your borders against pillage.
You should also get a library(s) and a caravan for beakers (preferably NC even, if you can pull it off fast) before beelining to Petra (and I dunno why you beeline Currency since I cannot imagine you finishing liberty for GE without Oracle around t69)

And seriously, so many rivers, the land is so good, you don't need Petra; it is a nice bonus but if it were me I'd go one city NC; then if Petra is still there, I'd build it...

It seems like your timing is off. ie you settled one new city too soon before you had adequate lux for . Now you're rushing to the tech for Petra but won't have the GE until considerably later.

I don't think Liberty is the right idea for this map as you can't get many good cities unless your plan is to rid the continent of India and the Dutch.

Then again, I am almost always a 4 city tradition player.

I'm just a Immortal player, so heed the advice of the Deity experts here.

.. neilkaz ..

Some thoughts.

I agree with KB, the capital's dirt is pretty awful - tundra's a no go. I would have wandered west away from the tundra and likely settled on the grassland next to a mountain and between horse / wheat. I like settling near a mountain, to find hills that benefit from the UI. That spot benefits from three luxes as well. As KB noted, the spot where you planted Tiwanuka would be an awesome capital, but I don't have the stomach to go that long without settling.

I would have gone Tradition as Liberty isn't worth it with so few spots to settle - Tradition is also nice for faitb buying engineers in later game.

I would have fought a pitched battle with the Dutch for Rotterdam's spot and settled there & where you have Tiwanuka for cities 2 & 3 and called it a day.

I played around with this some from the start and settled in place like the OP. It is OK but there's too much tundra. Tundra is only reasonable if mostly hills for mines or with resources. That being said, sometimes you take a walk with your settler and don't find anything much better. However, with the UA your settler isn't stopped by hills and can take two steps.

I don't think that all those replying realize this is continents so you need a coastal city.

I delayed settling somewhat and both India and the Dutch built in my face. This means war and I am training slingers on a nearby CS (stole two workers from them also) and will soon have comps.

One question, Kammy has come over to this continent. If I kill both the Dutch and Indians completely, he'll know about it, but will the rest of his continent?

I can't play this any more for a week as am going on holiday and no computer games.

fourier - Not sure what you could see from your starting location, but I would have settled the tile between the cow and wine. The spot 1 tile west of the horse is pretty good too (if it is still on river), and would allow you to put your second city close to the two wine. For inca, mountains are also food tiles. Culture is very capital-centric and is just as much about production as food. Just don't crowd your capital with your other cities, make sure the capital has 3 full rings of tiles to work, if possible.

The other cities, just make sure they have a couple good food tiles, a couple of good production tiles, and some luxuries to sell. For example, plop a city on the gold tile next to Rotterdam to get gold + silver (luxuries and production) and some flood plains. Tundra mountains are fine.

I can't see all the tiles, but the Tiwanku spot might be marginal, if there are only the 2 wheat tiles (the one wheat tile looks suspect), but decent if oasis tiles are in reach. Interesting, as I don't actually know how whether perta/terrace farms mix. I would be awesome if they stacked, but I am not sure if they do.

No mountains in Cusco, that hurts. Once again, two stupid sheep tiles absolutely troll what could have been an awesome Terrace Farms in Machu.

Not gonna lie, Tundra surrounded by Plains, would have insta rerolled that one.

neilkaz, my understanding is that Kammy will somehow tell the others. If you leave anyone alive to tell the tale, a tell they will be 'a telling. That said, if your aim is domination, if you trade heavily with the others on the turn you meet them, they might get over it. Usually when I am caught just shy of continent clearing genocide, it's not something they hold a terrible grudge over.

Now, when I recommence the same policy on THEIR continent, well that's a different story. Still, I am the dominant civ by then anyway. Haha.

based on the screenie (didnt open the save yet) id find a way to befriend those CSs. a food and culture CS can really help, culture particularly for racing to finish liberty.

and the wine spot in the mtns is great for terrace farms. you can have a big city there. make terrace farms asap.

Since this is my favorite Civ and my favorite strategy, I will chime in.

Normally, I'd read the posts of others so as not to repeat, but from a quick glance, here are my thoughts.

1. I see a third city population 1. Why? It's next to a CS and nobody else was going to go for that. The extra city at this point, when you should be rushing science and culture, only delays both.

2. You mention wanting to use GE for Petra. Great, that's what I do. But you beeline for Currency? It is much faster to beeline Philo and build Oracle.

3. With this terrain, assuming good worker steals and 3-4 huts (assume 1 culture, 1 pop, maybe 1 lucky science), I don't see a hard build Petra before t80 (that's an educated guess). Given the above assumptions, a Tradition opener, bull liberty, delaying Settler for Liberty finisher, would get Petra closer to t70.

4. With desert start nearby, you really do need to start with Pottery and get a Shrine up. Just in case you get Desert Folklore because it's powerful. On that note, if someone else gets DF early, adjust your strategy. That means an AI is going to get Petra and likely way before t70. My record for Liberty/Petra is something like t62 and my average is around t70. You cripple your game going for this strategy if you don't get it.

Sorry I don't have time for more details….but I'll look at the save later in the week if I have time.

PS. Not sure if I bothered to look at the difficulty level in the OP. If it was Deity, I'll stand by my statements. Anything else……..go for it.

Hammer Rabbi said:

based on the screenie (didnt open the save yet) id find a way to befriend those CSs. a food and culture CS can really help, culture particularly for racing to finish liberty.

and the wine spot in the mtns is great for terrace farms. you can have a big city there. make terrace farms asap.

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Yes on CS culture, especially for Liberty GE Petra strategy.

But….the mountains don't lead to many T-Farms…..and if he's going for Liberty/Petra, you go Philo, then beeline Currency, and Construction comes late. You are either going for Petra and get it, or not. Can't do both. Going for it properly, IMHO, requires the path I outlined above.

(When it comes to most strategies in BNW, I defer to others' most of the time. But this is my baby…….I really wish I had the time for this thread…….not this week, sadly).

@Shark Diver: some of that is in hindsight. had he tried to friend those CSs earlier his free GE from liberty would be there sooner for Petra. i also wasnt thinking specifically about the Petra plan. when i play Inca, its always based around those TFs if the dirt is strong. but not knowing if he went philo or not yet doesnt tell me if he has Oracle planned to finish liberty. if not hes relying on CPT and needs the culture CS.

i agree on your tech order if Oracle is key cog in that plan. it certainly should be looking at the screenie. but inca with the right dirt can do it without getting Oracle for GE before Petra, imo. (ive had better luck hard building Petra than timing it with Oracle/Lib GE at the higher diffs.) i should open that save to see what all has been done beyond that screenie.

edit: i opened the save but thought it was from t53. instead its from 0. i like that. i think i'll play it and try a few things with getting petra. i do have map knowledge advantage though.

Hammer Rabbi said:

@Shark Diver: some of that is in hindsight. had he tried to friend those CSs earlier his free GE from liberty would be there sooner for Petra. i also wasnt thinking specifically about the Petra plan. when i play Inca, its always based around those TFs if the dirt is strong. but not knowing if he went philo or not yet doesnt tell me if he has Oracle planned to finish liberty. if not hes relying on CPT and needs the culture CS.

i agree on your tech order if Oracle is key cog in that plan. it certainly should be looking at the screenie. but inca with the right dirt can do it without getting Oracle for GE before Petra, imo. (ive had better luck hard building Petra than timing it with Oracle/Lib GE at the higher diffs.) i should open that save to see what all has been done beyond that screenie.

edit: i opened the save but thought it was from t53. instead its from 0. i like that. i think i'll play it and try a few things with getting petra. i do have map knowledge advantage though.

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Well I'd give it a try, but I just haven't played Immortal in a long time I just don't know the proper timings so I'd make a mess of things.

Regarding Petra……you certainly can get it more quickly by hard-building it, and that means a greater likelihood of getting it. However, my Petra route doesn't handicap you the rest of the game if you don't get it.

My route means you are still getting Oracle and decent NC time, so don't fall behind on tech. Beelining Currency and hard-building almost guarantees a late NC.

Also, if some AI grabs Petra a few turns before you finish Liberty (which usually comes just a few turns after researching Currency), you either use the GE on another powerful early GW or you grab a GS and now have a pretty strong science start (early natural GS from Oracle coming soon).

If you try hard-building Petra and miss, you have a huge uphill battle.

yeah, there's a risk in settling a city in an area where youll have to rely on getting certain wonders to succeed. hard building misses are minorly compensated in gold. not much but its something.

Hammer Rabbi said:

yeah, there's a risk in settling a city in an area where youll have to rely on getting certain wonders to succeed. hard building misses are minorly compensated in gold. not much but its something.

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Rabbi of Hammers,

There was an earlier thread about build order for Deity Petra that I joined in on late and I also think I started a thread a couple of months ago on this topic, so I'm not going to go too much more into detail so as to avoid being thought of as a mauler of deceased equine types.

That said, with ANY civ, if I see desert, I'm scouting differently to see if my "Petra gambit strategy" is going to work. IMHO it is the most powerful Wonder in the game, but it is high risk. I can't think of a single other similar scenario where a Wonder is terrain dependent, civ independent, and game-changing if you get it.

My whole point is that if you suicide for hard-building it (on Deity) and don't get it, you now have useless terrain to some extent and have totally blown the tech path. Going for the Liberty finishing GE path means you are focusing on early tech (to reach Currency after the Philo detour) and are seriously pushing culture (obviously to rush Liberty finish). Neither of these two things sets you back in any way. Yes? OK, I guess by beelining Currency after Philo you are delaying Uni's, but I've usually been able to get Uni's pre t120 and that's not really that late. Also, the Currency path gives you a decent shot at LToP with that GE if you miss.

I guess what I'm saying is that hard-building ANY early Wonder (besides Oracle) is very risky. I'm a believer in a backup plan for all strategies. Yeah, I have slower victory times than some, but I really hate losing

Shark Diver said:

Rabbi of Hammers,

There was an earlier thread about build order for Deity Petra that I joined in on late and I also think I started a thread a couple of months ago on this topic, so I'm not going to go too much more into detail so as to avoid being thought of as a mauler of deceased equine types.

That said, with ANY civ, if I see desert, I'm scouting differently to see if my "Petra gambit strategy" is going to work. IMHO it is the most powerful Wonder in the game, but it is high risk. I can't think of a single other similar scenario where a Wonder is terrain dependent, civ independent, and game-changing if you get it.

My whole point is that if you suicide for hard-building it (on Deity) and don't get it, you now have useless terrain to some extent and have totally blown the tech path. Going for the Liberty finishing GE path means you are focusing on early tech (to reach Currency after the Philo detour) and are seriously pushing culture (obviously to rush Liberty finish). Neither of these two things sets you back in any way. Yes? OK, I guess by beelining Currency after Philo you are delaying Uni's, but I've usually been able to get Uni's pre t120 and that's not really that late. Also, the Currency path gives you a decent shot at LToP with that GE if you miss.

I guess what I'm saying is that hard-building ANY early Wonder (besides Oracle) is very risky. I'm a believer in a backup plan for all strategies. Yeah, I have slower victory times than some, but I really hate losing

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Well if your terrain is crap, the great person from liberty finisher is not gonna help much; you're screwed anyway.
At least tradition will allow you to grow your crappy cap a bit more... and hard-building Petra with tradition is faster. And your tech path is not super-blown as all those techs point to civil service, a very crucial tech which I recommend taking before theology unless you are Maya (and while you are hard-building Petra I'm sure you already have a library and routes up; philosophy will only have to be done just about when Petra finishes/AIs build it first) And no idiot is going to go for LtoP without going for education first...


Going Liberty is like you are already sacrificing a wonder Tradition's growth bonuses and monarchy are so good that if you take any other tree it's the equivalent of losing out on a free ToA. The "free" GP from the liberty finisher is not even really free.

kb27787 said:

Well if your terrain is crap, the great person from liberty finisher is not gonna help much; you're screwed anyway.
At least tradition will allow you to grow your crappy cap a bit more... and hard-building Petra with tradition is faster. And your tech path is not super-blown as all those techs point to civil service, a very crucial tech which I recommend taking before theology unless you are Maya (and while you are hard-building Petra I'm sure you already have a library and routes up; philosophy will only have to be done just about when Petra finishes/AIs build it first) And no idiot is going to go for LtoP without going for education first...


Going Liberty is like you are already sacrificing a wonder Tradition's growth bonuses and monarchy are so good that if you take any other tree it's the equivalent of losing out on a free ToA. The "free" GP from the liberty finisher is not even really free.

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Very nice counter-argument KB. I don't have the time to do more than acknowledge it tonight, but I'll try to respond in the next few days when time allows.

I will say that Liberty's early expansion bonuses are not to be ignored when comparing the two trees, nor is the faster worker bonus.

Regarding "crap terrain"…..Petra can turn crap terrain into OP terrain. Settling in such terrain and not getting the Wonder would suck….hence my penchant for using the free settler as Liberty finisher. Big risk there is that Petra gets founded during the 3-4 turns of travel to the non-capital Petra site (roads can shorten this risk).

I love the topic, but can't spend any time following up anytime soon.