The Deity Challenge Lineup #12 - The Maya

Settled just South on t2 on the floodplains. Warrior got 4 early goody huts, including culture, pop, 100 gold, and a stupid map. Scout found a few also, including weapons upgrade, pop, & culture. Pop huts were very important, as I worked the hill tile out of the gate as I didn't want to wait 7 turns for scout.

Plenty of room to settle cities here. Found Mt. Kilamanjaro early and was 1st to discover 6 CS. Met all civs early, was pleased to see a CS buffer between Monte and myself. Venice offered early DoF, which I accepted. I love having him as a neighbor early as it opens up more room for expansion (so I went Liberty). We'll see if he stays friendly after I dropped 4th city right in his lap to get the boars and salt. Monte wanted me to DoW Dido with him, but I declined and he's been at a useless war with her since. I'll need to get some bribe goodies ready, as I plan on putting my 5th city up north by the pachyderms shortly.

I should probably mention what I did with the third city:



Yeah, that makes 4 straight Petras for me. I used the GE from Liberty finisher. This is going to be a great city. I used Oracle to help finish Liberty and just had to wait on Currency to pop Petra. Sadly, I missed out on Pyramids by 1 turn, so now I'll have to hard build 2 workers, as I only stole 1 from a CS.

BO was Scout > Monument > Pyramid > Settler > Granary > Library > Oracle

SP were Tradition Opener > Full Liberty (with settler coming 2nd to last).

I'll now finish Tradition as my culture is strong. 4 city NC will be ready to start on t90, as I could only buy one library. I also delayed starting Mayan Long Count a bit, as I didn't think I could research Theology AND Currency in time. No worries, as I find I can never really use all of the Mayan great people, and getting Petra in an expo is pretty nice.

I also got Desert Folklore, 4th religion, Tithe, Mosques. Dido also has a religion, but I should be out-faithing her pretty easy with 2 desert cities and 5 mosques. Time to build some defense and then go into full tech mode while I try to figure out how to win this.

I'm tempted to take a Great Admiral and go meet the other continent early.

I think I may have hopelessly bungled this open. I settled in place, first expo above wheat and oasis to the W for Petra. 2nd expo S on plains hill to get gems, etc. 3rd will go where yours went, by Venice. I see he already grabbed the truffles, I wanted to buy that and the salt. I wanted to settle that 2nd, but with DF and 3 religions gone I felt I needed the desert tiles S first. Plus my build order is Pyramid first, so I am nowhere near a GE, it will take forever to hard build it as I had 1 worker that I cash bought.

Anyway, I went Liberty and bee-lined towards Currency, and have no growth in my cap, it is only pop 4 at t62! I DOW'd Budapest immediately and have yet to steal a worker, and it has a spear and CB so no way to get one now. Scouted Monte but he always had Jags near his workers, no way. No workers near Venice, Dido might have nabbed them. Now Dido is going to settle in my face and my units couldn't intercede. I am thinking of quitting, as this will suck big-time, but I suppose it will truly be a "challenge." I hate Liberty. Plus I started a really fun Venice game on std earth map which I may post at some point. It presents so many fun opportunities, you start in Iran.

I think it is too early for you to throw in the towel. Take your time. Take a break. Play that other game and come back to this one later. Remember your going to try to take over better cities with this Liberty opener right. You did alot better scouting but everyone usually scouts better than I do .

Once again you get any wonder you choose! Nice job. I have about the same city set up as you but am going to try for 6 cities around your turn time. Im not sure I have enough happy to hold it though so I keep changing my mind. I do enjoy seeing all the different posts with different results though! Also I guess opening up Tradition helps finish Liberty faster huh? Oh and I just noticed your building the Pyramids too huh... you wonder whore lol jk/jk!!

I wanted to wait till turn 100 to post but I need a breakfast break after this situation. So for me it was a no brainer to settle the capital beside the mtn on the river. Ofcourse Im gonna try to get DF asap on this start. I built a scout in 7 turns and put a few turns into another but switched over to Pyramid once Pottery was finished. After that Monument for sure. I wanted to go Honor first and clear out my Cont asap but after a few turns of scouting I opted for Liberty. I do not like going for Petra but I kept going back and forth on this plan which is killing my tech choices. I was beelining straight for it and I thought wtf do I need Petra for going Liberty I am not going to grow much so I started teching things like mining, trapping, and calendar so I could pump out the settlers and settle on the luxes.

Im still torn if I want Petra, Machu, or just rush the NC with the GE after Liberty finisher which is probably the best play for my game. So to get my culture going I went Monument first in all expos instead of Pyramid which was the second build and after that some Atlatlist's and onto libraries since I teched Writing since I do not need to finish Currency since my finisher won't be for another 8 turns. Im only 3 from Currency so I could delay it again if I want.

I got greedy stealing my first worker from Dido after Dowing and getting Peace from Venice because I had to kill his open MOV. I was thinking if I steal this worker she is gonna hate me for the rest of my life but I stole it anyway and ofcourse she gave me peace a few turns later and DOF'ed up with me only to backstab me a few turns later and now is Hostile. Monty somehow took my location with all that Ivory. I have no clue where his capital is but in my mind it looks like he is to the East but Im not so sure. At least he sent me a caravan but only gives up 6gpt on the trades. I also sent my only caravan to Texcoco to help with Diplo/Science/Gold.

So I buy some expensive hexes to block another MOV from Venice and I park an Atlatlist in his way. That works for about ten turns and after that he sneaks in on a hill on my allied CS Kabul. I wish he would of just went to one of the many other CS's lol. Im 99% sure he will convert this CS and not do a Trade Mission instead which I would love. That brings us to the question... Do I Backstab or Wait. Oddly enough I started a thread on this issue when in #3 DCL I had an easier choice of Backstabbing Dido with a much larger army. This choice is tough so I need a break. I am really 50/50 on it but I know I plan to try to take out his Capital soon anyway.

I will be putting this question on that older thread so if you want to give some free advice please answer on that thread.

Religion is: DF, Church Property, Rel Community since all the good stuff was taken. 4th Religion but nobody on my Cont has one yet so I might be able to spread this pretty good.

SPs: Left side of Liberty and about to finish it soon.

I delayed NC even more because Monte sent a settler towards those pachyderms. I was able to block that settler and rush one from Utique to get my ivory, but had to hard build that library so NC went at like t110 (ouch). Unis went up pretty quick, with the exception of that late expo, so at least I'm tech'ing at 150 bpt now.

Long Count gave me a GS, then I took a GP to spread my religion (natural 2nd GP gave me Feed the World and Religious Texts), and I built 4 200 faith Mosques and the 5th for 300 faith. My religion will dominate this continent, which is nice. Next I grabbed a GE and popped it to build Machu…..If I had gotten Pyramids I'd claim that Wonder-whore title……I hate missing by 1 turn. Next GP will be an admiral, as I need to meet the other civs soon. Sistine and FP went pretty early, so I'm not rushing to get to PT.

The bad news……Monte just finished off Dido and he now wants me to DoW Venice. Venice as already MoV'd 2 CS, including my southern neighbor (Kabul?), so I may as well join in soon to take out that city plus Venice. I hope I have enough Xbows to do so. I'm not sure which VC to go for, as all options are open at this point.

Moved to the mountain, popped culture ruin and decided to test Tradition-Liberty start. I think Petra will be mine, but... t65 or something all religions were taken. Pretty annoyed by that because I have desert folklore.

Stole worker from Dido and Budapest. Since I was stealing with Scout near Carthage, I was unable to steal another one without extensive healing -- and by that time she had brought her army. However, I pillaged a trade route, so that was lovely! 100 g. But because I waited too long, Budapest got under protection of Monty and Enrico. Still worth.

I can keep playing, but I am kind of upset I did not get a religion with 10 fpt. Also, Kabul wants a great merchant.. wat.

Also, somebody built Pyramids on t46.

I'm hoping you don't throw in the towel. If you get that 4th city down by Venice in time to buy the salt, your happy problems will be solved and you'll have a decent 4-city start.

I'm surprised Monte isn't creating more havoc in your game. He was full of p#ss and vinegar in mine.

I share your dislike for Liberty, but it does work for those coveted wonders. I don't think Tradition opener speeds up Liberty finisher, but the extra border growth can be worth it. When I go for Petra, it's a balance of rushing culture and pushing science, as I try to time Oracle, Currency, and Liberty finisher to be right around the same turn. Usually, it's the science that I have to wait on. Tradition opener helps with that (population growth) as does the early caravan. Ideally, I wouldn't build expos at all until after Petra, but that rarely makes sense due to need to grab land. I guess I don't think Tradition opener slows down Liberty finish by more than a few turns, and it usually seems to be worth it to me.

Bummer about the religion. Hopefully you get Petra and have good neighboring religions. I can't recall getting DF and NOT getting a religion, so that's just bad luck.

--Montezuma is completely out of control. He already has Carthage and he recently took Budapest, giving him a total of 12 (twelve!) cities. I've been diligent about building an army, so I'm feeling pretty safe at the moment, but I have no doubt that war will come sooner rather than later.

--I missed out on Desert Folklore and instead ended up with Goddess of the Hunt, which I think is actually better here. Being able to work so many Camps has been very handy for gold.

--See my Tikal? That size four city in the Ivory clump? I built the Oracle in there. Kind of a weird play, but it worked out. That city is stagnating on 3 Ivory and one Mine, which is a nice gold/production city that wouldn't be possible without Goddess of the Hunt.

--I haven't even started the National College yet. Yikes!

--Social Policies were a bit experimental. Tradition opener, Liberty Opener, Republic, Collective Rule, Aristocracy, Citizenship, Representation. I'm thinking I'll finish Liberty next then move on to Commerce until Rationalism.

--I can finish Liberty in four turns, and I should get my first Mayan Great Person soon, too. There's a real chance that in ten turns or so I'll have both Borobudur and Machu Picchu in my capital, free. (Petra is gone, unfortunately).

--I got fourth Religion. Tithe + Divine Inspiration. Carthage is the only other civ on the island to found, and she already lost her capital. If I get Borobudur, there's a possibility for an extremely strong religion.

--Opening build order in capital was Monument - Scout - Pyramid - Scout - Scout - Atlatlist - Pyramids - Settlers. I've been experimenting with Monument-first as my standard opening and I really like it.

Edit: I read through all the other posts, and it looks like I'm the only one so far to settle King Solomon's Mines. Y'all are missing out. That city is crazy.

It also looks like no one else chose the capital spot I did. Getting the Wheat in the starting tile ring was the #1 priority for me. That fast growth is so key for getting a good start.

Started scout, monument until pottery finished. Then switched to the pyramid with 2 turns left on monument.

Found some good huts getting weapons for the warrior, archery, gold and culture.

Took tradition, in hindsight i think for once liberty would have been a good choice.

Turn 10 meet monte. There are some city states between me and him though, so hopefully some time there.

Turn 16 he left a worker vulnerable, so I took it with my scout. There were some barbs on the way back though.

Monte offered peace on turn 20. Finished pyramid then started on granary T21.

My scout was camping by budapest waiting for a worker and healing

T23 meet carthage and venice.

Finish granary and make another scout
T32 steal a worker from M;Banza Kongo

Get a pantion (desert folk law)

T33 start a settler, might be a bit early as city is pop 3, but it is kinda time.

T37 monte has a worker running around in the south for some reason, so I take that one too and start building some atlatlist

Turn 44 we get peace with monte again, but now I really need to get my cities out there.

Turn 87 get theology, which I guess is pretty late, still not started on NC, which is pretty bad

Turn 96 restarted the war between dido and Monte, which might have been a mistake as dido looks to be geting wiped out. Only cost 2 iron and 2 horses for 30 turns though.

Turn 101 we get our first great person (scientist), and create an acadamy.

Turn 104 finally finish the NC, now have 78 beakers per turn.

I am not as behind on tech as I feared though.
4 techs behind Monte
3 Techs behind Venice
2 techs behind Carthage

I have some techs they don't because of the trip to early theology

Right now Venice seems to be good friends with me. Monte is winning the war with Dido and probably will come for the city states next or me directly.

Think it has been going ok so far. 3 free workers really helped. Probably I am behind on tech to where I should be. I also think liberty would have been a better choice. With Venice next to me and Dido and Monte going for each at the top there is a lot of land to expand into. Spamming pyramids would be good, they are a great building.

My biggest concern is the inevitable war with Monte, my problem in Diety is when warmongers come for me with a ton of units.

Need to get education first though, can probably get good research agreements with venice.

With the desert faith I am getting a lot of faith every turn. Monte's religion also has pagodas and cathedrals, and he has got one of my cities already. So going to get at least that.

I took the +production one for the reformation beleif, which is good for tall cities, not sure how tall i can get here though.

Anyway been fun so far.

Regarding opening build, I'll be interested in hearing your conclusions on Monument opener. Because I know I'm opening Tradition most of the time, I have been waiting. Because this map is continents, I don't build the 2nd scout.

PS. I love building Oracle in an expo. I try to get it in a river city so I can get the garden-enhanced early GS.

Looks like most people settled on the gems, which I did not think of. I put it on the corner to get the river and the coast, but does waste a flood plains. I think the gems would have been better.

Right now I have 4 cities on turn 104, not settled the truffles one yet, wanted to finish the NC first, but almost got the settler done there. As Dido has more or less been taken out it is tempting to then settle all the way to the west coast, but that is going to bring forward the inevitable war with Monte, and it is a bit expensive with full cost settlers.

I do like the great admiral strategy to go see the others early, did not think of that. Will do that the next time I have a lot of ivory to sell, and soon some truffles as well.

I had to do something else, so I stopped at that turn, but I think I''ll restart. It's pretty dumb that in the Morocco game I did NOT want a religion, and yet a GP spawned at t140 because the AI's did not found the last religion -- and now with DF, I can't even get the last religion. It's pretty annoying. AND I have 2 pyramids.

Also, I wonder if it is viable to rush Theology and get Petra with the first GE. But I want to actually do the Liberty-Tradition mix with someone who is not Poland.

I chose this map for the community because the terrain was slightly sub-optimal and it had Venice in it (which makes for a fun game), and because the other continent was the ‘better’ continent, and whoever dominated there was likely gonna be a runaway. There were lots of options for how to play it, and my own plan was to go for a warmongering CV, clean out my continent with boats and then using the captured capitals to produce tourism, and take all the archaeological digs from my continent.

Proved to be a lot harder than I thought. Well, actually, it was a complete slog. Firstly, I missed out on the 5th religion. First bummer. Then I turtled and tech-ed but growth was slow (especially after Monty killed my pantheon of food from camps, putting the elephants back to a single food unit each ).

To make matters REALLY worse, Pocatello decided to do that rare thing and play like a human. He went trad/consulates/rationalism and hit modern in something crazy not long after T150 or so. After I picked up my jaw, I realized I would have a hard time getting enough tourism to counter his culture. I pressed on building boats and preparing to take Tenochtitlan, Carthage, and Venice, and was halfway through taking the first when Pocky decided that one continent was not enough for him and launched attacks on Carthage and Venice, and settled 3 or 4 spam cities on 'my' continent.

Then I decided to take a really risky gambit. I borrowed huge sums of money from Venice 1 turn before the DoF ended (an exploit, one might argue, but hey, I was up against it and am not a great player yet), and joined the war against Dandles, hoping I could take Venice, even if Carthage was destined to forever stay in Shoshone hands.

So here I am, turn T220 and I know that Pocatello will launch in the next 30 turns, and I am nowhere near any VC.

Should I replay and try a completely different social policy path? And/or forget religion entirely? Or just hope the the AI doesn’t get smart on me again? Or play on and hope that, like Genghis did in that MadDjinn Maya game, Pocatello just stores his rockets and doesn't use them?

But it’s just depressing when I take Tenochtitlan and Venice with a strategy I was planning for from T20 or so, and then I head to Carthage and find units 2 eras ahead of me

Venice

the game is a whole level easier.

Always try to remember Liberty isn't supposed to play like Tradition. We are supposed to make more cities and keep them closer together with lower population. I see alot of people, myself included, playing Liberty like Tradition and I think that doesn't work as well. As far as I can remember your capital and cities are not supposed to go over 5 pop for a long time anyway so having low pop may seem like a problem but it is how it is supposed to work. It actually pays off in the late game.

Another thing is if you are going Liberty Im pretty sure you are supposed to get ready to start killing units and taking cities! Ofcourse we all play different and we have many choices. My above comments are not set in stone. You can play it many ways and still make it work but the point is it is supposed to play much different than Tradition from my understanding.

I do not mind playing Liberty even though I find Tradition easier but I am really starting to like going Full Honor instead but I have a hard time getting out of the Tradition hangover from alot of my years of playing this game. I've always felt it is better to take your wonders instead of building them but I too get into being a Wonder Whore at times.

Anyhoo I am going back into the game and am sad to see nobody had any thoughts on if I should backstab to kill that MOV or not . It may take me 5-10 mins to decide but I am going to have to live with either choice I decide to make. I could play it one way and reload and play it the other way but I really hate playing over turns in the same game. That is not to say I don't understand why people do it and that you can not learn from it but I find my games are more tense if I do not reload unless it is a major misclick. I would rather just start another game and live with a loss instead of replaying a map with prior information.

That is a really impressive city. I wouldn't mind having those mines but that is such a long way from the capital. I am impressed that you got over there. I would say it is an awesome production city but Im not sure if it is worth it since your really gonna upset Dido and Monty. However I have seen you make things like this work many of games. Im pretty sure it was you doing something wild like that with the America game when you forward settled on Attila I think. Im almost certain in my games I couldn't pull off the Diplo needed for that. Honestly some of you guys amaze with large amounts of Science, Production, Population, and Military Units compared to my games.

Oh and Liberty is way the best play with this Civ (Maya). You want as many cities with Pyramids as possible to get all that xtra sci/faith. I did kill that little MOV anyway. I couldn't see not doing it. I got Monty to DOW Venice First and Venice gave me peace a few turns later with 1gpt to go with it but he denounced me and Carthage is geting ready to as well. I planted a 6th city and Monty didn't like that so this game might be over soon lol. I got Petra on turn 78 but really think it was the wrong play but everyone else is doing it so you know... go with the flow .

By the way Oracle went on turn 77!

I had the same thought regarding Petra, but I don't think it is viable to tech Theology and Currency in time. Using the Liberty finisher is significantly faster, especially with Oracle. I supposed it can be done around t85 or so, but I rarely see Petra go that late (80 is my usual cutoff for going for it……I think 65 or so is my record). As someone else mentioned, Desert Folklore was taken by another civ, so we know somebody else out there has desert.

My 2 sense: Kill that CS-stealing little bastid.