How to handle your Neighbor (Deity)?

This thread is inspired by Consentient since I thought it could help any player who has trouble with difficult neighbors. So that being said... what Civ do you find you have the most trouble with as your neighbor and how is the best way to handle them? Please give us details and not just say rush them. I know Zulu is going to be the most problem for most players but who else gives you trouble and how do you get the advantage over them? Any player who thinks they have the best strategy against Japan, Zulu, or another strong warmonger please advise us!

As I said before, Oda can be absolutely unplayable. There was one time I scouted to the East of my starting position, found him, immediately started preparing defences, delaying libraries, NC, everything else. Settled 2 expos only with free worker and one quickly chopped, so I could build more troops and be ready. T38 DOW with around 20 units meant I stood no chance. For some reason, this has now become such a familiar picture that I just don't play if he's within 15 tiles. Further away, I have a chance.

Most of the time, I am the bad neighbour and build an early army and go on the rampage. But Oda can do it earlier and more potently than anyone else I've seen. I've seen T50ish Steel, which is no fun at all.

I don't think there IS any advice you can give someone in this situation. I wish I still had the save. I'd make it an informal Deity challenge for a pro to survive the wave. Alas, I deleted it and have no desire to re-roll yet another cluster-kill.

Attila: re-roll as if you spawn next to him you're next good as dead. Even bribing him won't work as if he covets your lands they're effectively his, in the Ancient era that is.
Ashurbanipal: In the Inca deity challenge you spawn next to him, I found as long as I had enough ranged units I was ok. Just makes sure his siege tower(s) never reach next to you cit(ies).
Japan: Don't sell him any iron and try and buy all of his, you don't want a swarm of samurai on your lands that early.
Shaka: As soon as you see the notification he has reached the Medieval Era you know it's definitely coming, just keep your ranged units well away from his Impi's as they can one-shot a x-bow.

Diplomacy
I find this the best course of action, especially early on. that means not forward settling them and building units. Consider 'yes' to DOW requests. Giving away a single luxury for free sometime negates the red 'they covet your lands', long enough for you to be prepared anyway. Bribing is the #1 tactic for keeping a known warmonger at bay long enough for you to mount a counter offensive should they DOW you.Spreading your religion if they haven't founded one yet is another.

Good info so far! I know this is off topic but I noticed that you play with fixed prophets. I kinda wish they would just patch the game so it is part of the base game. I am tempted to make the modification but it might cause a problem with comparing other games/players. I still have not made the switch to info addict as well but perhaps it is time. I have to play the game in Direct X 9 instead of 10/11 since 10/11 messes up my graphics. I do not know how to fix it either and maybe I just need to upgrade my video card.

LOL Consentient ... you are 100% correct that turn 50 Steal is no fun to deal with. I find the same true about Washington getting Minutemen up in a hurry as well and of course turn 60 Impi wave is one difficult challenge!

Philip, you should look at how Peddroelm deals with Attila in DCL #2. Very educational

Correct me if I am wrong, they can ALL be handle via diplo. See my Indonesia DCL. War is not needed unless you decide thats what you want.

Here is an old Indian trick that I use to secure relations. Research AH, reveal Horse, improve tile, GIVE 1 Horse to each AI early circa t25 to 30.

There are a few civs that I'd rather not have as a next door neighbor. For me, the worst is Montezuma. Not only do you KNOW he's coming for you, but he comes earlier than just about anyone else with a swarm of mindless zombies who care for nothing but to sacrifice themselves against my city walls. I feel like I'm a part of the next Resident Evil movie.

That said, the best defense is, and always will be, a good offense. The one ancient ruin I hope for the most is a scout upgrade. That mobility for an archer early is invaluable. If I don't get it, and have found a nuisance nearby, archery becomes my 2nd or 3rd tech, and I get at least 2 out by t30 if possible. Then, DoW the potential threat and pick off his units in his lands. The AI is stupid before building critical mass and you can make sure critical mass is never reached (or seriously delayed) by taking the battle to them.

My biggest mistake with a nearby early warmonger is giving them peace too soon. I'll have them rendered useless, give them peace, then 10 turns later face a carpet. Shaka is the normal culprit that inspired this paragraph. He often comes at your with ancient units, you fight them off, get peace, and then the Impi spawn like rabbits.

Moral of my story: if war is coming, make sure it's in their territory, not yours.

Very nice budweiser! I never even thought about giving away a horse or iron for free! I did not know that would improve relations! Does that negate the covet lands modifier? I have played this game since it came out and Civ IV for a long time and have not seen this strategy/exploit. Good to know my man ... good to know!

Fluphen Azine said:

Very nice budweiser! I never even thought about giving away a horse or iron for free! I did not know that would improve relations! Does that negate the covet lands modifier? I have played this game since it came out and Civ IV for a long time and have not seen this strategy/exploit. Good to know my man ... good to know!

Click to expand...

After the first deal, the gift expires, you can renew the deal and charge money for it. Revealing Horse AND Iron quickly is a strong move, even if it delays NC a little bit. And I dont think it really does.

It delays the NC by 10-15 turns at most, but you can still end up with Education in the 110s

Japan, Assyria and Huns are the most threatening... and the most backstabby...

The rest can be befriended with reliable loyalty; just make sure you watch their borders and barb camps; free their citizens and you should be good. Like said above, giving them free stuff gives a "we've traded recently" buff (when you give them favorable deals); the magnitude of greenness depends on the worth of stuff you give them. 5 horse/iron or a lux is usually reliable enough to keep it bright green.

Better yet, once you are friends early game and they ask for help, GIVE IT TO THEM esp if it is gold or gpt unless there is no good reason to. They will ask to renew the deal all game but the amount of the gold/gpt will not change! Meaning that you will be friends even with ideology and whatnot for the grand price of around 3-5gpt The magnitude of "they asked for help and you provided" is independent of the amount/worth of stuff given.

The above mentioned warmongers will still backstab you despite having 5 green buffs so do not ever, ever trust them. They are complete assh0les.

However, it's not the civ per se it's the terrain.
5-6 scouts can block an entire army and keep them behind a river before they reach your borders; like I said before, without reaching your borders, they won't DoW (unless another AI invites them to; as long as you don't have TWO people wanting your stuff, you should be good)

A very extreme solution is to found a crappy city between the two of you and then give it away to a 3rd, reliably strong defensive civ like India (who has a lot of defensive army by flavor); this only applies to when there is still plenty of space for you to expand. Let the two fight it out and chances are AIs value cities close to their borders a lot; you can make a fortune even greater than the 500 gold of a settler if you sell it to the right person.

kb27787 said:

A very extreme solution is to found a crappy city between the two of you and then give it away to a 3rd, reliably strong defensive civ like India (who has a lot of defensive army by flavor); this only applies to when there is still plenty of space for you to expand. Let the two fight it out and chances are AIs value cities close to their borders a lot; you can make a fortune even greater than the 500 gold of a settler if you sell it to the right person.

Click to expand...

I will definitely be giving this one a try. It's downright awnry.

kb27787 said:

Japan, Assyria and Huns are the most threatening... and the most backstabby...

The rest can be befriended with reliable loyalty; just make sure you watch their borders and barb camps; free their citizens and you should be good. Like said above, giving them free stuff gives a "we've traded recently" buff (when you give them favorable deals); the magnitude of greenness depends on the worth of stuff you give them. 5 horse/iron or a lux is usually reliable enough to keep it bright green.

Better yet, once you are friends early game and they ask for help, GIVE IT TO THEM esp if it is gold or gpt unless there is no good reason to. They will ask to renew the deal all game but the amount of the gold/gpt will not change! Meaning that you will be friends even with ideology and whatnot for the grand price of around 3-5gpt The magnitude of "they asked for help and you provided" is independent of the amount/worth of stuff given.

The above mentioned warmongers will still backstab you despite having 5 green buffs so do not ever, ever trust them. They are complete assh0les.

Click to expand...

I'm sorry but this isn't quite true in some of my games. Bismarck, too, for example, will plot against you despite the buffs, if you have any army smaller than his. Ditto Indonesia. These too are, I'm certain, hard-coded to be obsessed with lebensraum and taking it from the human player.

Overall, your post was quite accurate to my experience, kb, but this one part is not quite on the mark IMO. Sometimes different AIs will be unbribeable.

I agree that the best defence is offence. I'm from the Mearsheimer school of Civ 5. This just doesn't work against Oda cuz sometimes he makes 2-3x more units than Ashur or Attila.

consentient said:

I'm sorry but this isn't quite true in some of my games. Bismarck, too, for example, will plot against you despite the buffs, if you have any army smaller than his. Ditto Indonesia. These too are, I'm certain, hard-coded to be obsessed with lebensraum and taking it from the human player.

Overall, your post was quite accurate to my experience, kb, but this one part is not quite on the mark IMO. Sometimes different AIs will be unbribeable.

I agree that the best defence is offence. I'm from the Mearsheimer school of Civ 5. This just doesn't work against Oda cuz sometimes he makes 2-3x more units than Ashur or Attila.

Click to expand...

Oh yeah I forgot about Dido (evil!), Germany and Aztecs too... oh yeah and fatty-ass Gaja too...
but plotting against someone (steal tech, prophet bomb holy city, coup CS ally, beat to wonder etc.) and actually DOWing is quite different.

We're not talking about war bribes; Budwiser was talking about something prophylactic: giving them stuff for free in a deal made on your behalf.
Bribes are by far my least recommended solution and a last resort. If you bribe often you will soon find yourself in a difficult position where it is impossible not to make more than one enemy (civs that you put to war with each other often will denounce each other once the war ends... they will force you to take sides... so I'd rather block than bribe); once you have multiple enemies, they will invite each other to war with you even if they are a million hexes away from your borders (see above); once you are in a war the odds of even a friend (esp not so loyal ones) DoWing you is greatly increased.

Anyway, let's say you've managed to befriend them (returning civilians, shared religion, giving gifts for free and whatnot) AFTER you've DOF'd if they ask for stuff for free and you gave it, I'm 90% sure even Germany will not DOW you; the AI is coded to work to the best interest of their empire and suddenly not having that deal going for them is viewed quite negatively;, unless bribed by other AI (happens once per game and some AIs are more prone to accepting than others, depending on army difference and loyalty flavor) OR invited by other AI (you'll know because the DoW will be simultaneous, and chances are at least one or both AIs have reason to hate you)

The latter one is by far more dangerous as you cannot see it coming (they will DoW you even if they are nowhere near your borders and forming a blockade behind a river will not save you in this instance)

As long as you don't have two enemies you can keep the peace going all game as long as you don't let their army reach your borders; even if your borders are touching as long as you are friendly (or they are pretending, depending on deception flavor which is my favorite part about Atilla or Monty, he's pretending to be friendly and so to keep up his ruse, he gives me open borders for a few strategic resources or gpt... then his plan to attack me kinda fails because I block) having open borders with them is quite easy and it's VERY easy to block as long as you have around 8-10 units or so, even the lowly scout or starting warrior or civilians like missionaries or archaelogists is completely fine... try it); the most dangerous thing is having a neighbor hate you; they will not give you open borders and the trick mentioned above no longer works.

This assumes you've survived until Civil Service of course... we are not talking about battering ram rushes which kill you on t35... but chances are you can find a river or patch of rough terrain in no man's land to block. I always send my scouts home to do this job; in the meantime they also help spot for barb camps and other civ's settlers.

So in my games war is a very rare thing. When you have gifts, mutual friends, WC proposals they love, landmark in their borders it is VERY hard to get DoW'd or even have an AI think about DoWing... they will still plot against you but they won't attack (if you see an army coming even from a friend, you bribe or block anyway unless your spy tells you the attack was launched against different civ) so your goal is to simply have no more than one enemy, then there will be no DoW that you cannot foresee.

Now for the rest of you warmongers who are used to getting chain-denounced, ignore all that I just said as this does not apply to you at all

Interesting that war is a rare thing for you. Perhaps you have completely mastered Diplo?

The Germany example I mentioned had buffs for DoF, returning civilians, trading, they had my religion in all their cities, war together against common foe, i gave them host of WC, voted for their proposals, etc.

Then they TRIPLE citadel-bombed me! and were clearly ready to DoW with 6-7 Infantry on my border.

Since you seem to know more than me, what exactly is the score with plotting reports. How accurate are the AIs about each other's intentions. When I first started playing the game I assumed it was fact reporting. But lately I've begun to feel that it's 50:50 at best. What do you think?

In my experience, plotting just means that they will try to act against you if they get the chance. it does not mean they will DoW you. I think voting against you, spying on you, prophet bombing will all qualify as plotting. It also mean they could be plotting but never have a chance to actually act against you (you don't propose council resolution or they just like what you proposed, their spies are busy couping CSs and they don't have a religion). Also, some AIs are always plotting against someone and that someone will change with each spy report. I think it's accurate when you get the report, but it does not mean you will ever see some consequences.
When you get a report that an army is marching against you, it's a different matter. The army is coming. It might still never reach your borders if you are far away but it's currently coming for you.

The most dangerous neighbors are of course those with strong early UUs and a warmonger personality. In my experience

• Oda and Shaka. Don't much to add. Hope there is someone they want to attack more than you so you want some army (never appear as an easy prey) and avoid settling too close to them.
• Darius (and probably Alex) can rush you as early as Bronze Working. This can be really bad. They are not as crazy as others thought so don't forward settle them, keep an army ready, trade with them and you might be able to stay peaceful (esp with Darius)
• Attila can put two types of rushes : battering rams or horse archers. Rams rushes are quite harmless as they can't attack units. If you have 6 units just put them outside your cities and he won't be able to damage you. If you have fewer try to dance around him so he never reaches your city. Focus on the few archers that come with the rams and you're safe Horse archers are far more dangerous, you need to get horsemen as soon as possible to counter them. Good news is they can't take cities so you need to focus on the other units. A good early rush with mixed Horse Archers and Battering Rams could be quite unbeatable but i've never seen it.
• Monty is more an annoyance than a threat. He tends to keeps mostly Jaguars and in my games often have basic bows when i have horsemen or CBs. Stay out of forests as much as possible and you should be able to kill his army with little losses.
• Ashurbanipal tends to produce too much Siege Towers and they are like Rams and can't attack units. He does not even have a second UU. Kill any escort quickly then surround your cities with units and laugh
• Askia can be an issue if he reaches Chivalry and you are unprepared as his UU can take cities easily unlike Knights. You should have some time but be careful after he reaches Medieval. Be careful before as he can be quite aggressive. On the other hand, i've been able to make a good and loyal friend of him after beating his army in several (non deity) games.
• Gengis : Keshiks are very strong. Fortunately he often targets CS first and everyone will hate him so if you don't denounce him and you trade with him, you can often keep him friendly. Don't DoF him unless you want the game to be both of you vs rest of the world
• Dido : Never trust her. She's not really a rusher, not really a warmonger. She's just totally unreliable. Always be ready for a surprise attack and you should be able to push it back. If she wants an Open Border she's probably going to attack you.

Something i haven't seen mentioned. Striking first (sub T10 DoWs) can help you. Stealing workers (or better yet their second settler if your warrior got an upgrade ruin) can slow them down. If they try to attack you very early they probably can't take your city and you can kill their early army making them more vulnerable to other AIs or even barbs. Archery should be your first tech if you DoW a warmonger early.

Terrain can be your friend. If you can forward settle them with a choke point city (on hills, with a river their side of the map and some mountains to limit attacks) you are probably guaranteed some training ground for your troops the rest of the game

When you are not going to found a religion, if a "bad" neighbor goes religious (Monty can often do it, Askia will almost always get one), it might be worth opening your borders so they can spread their religion on you. You'll get the same shared religion bonus. AIs often try to spread their religion, help them. Religious warmongers are not the worst as they often go Piety but it can save you some troubles.

EDIT : Also i think there is another type of bad neighbor beside crazy warmongers. They can be even worst depending on map and your civ : the crazy land grabbers. Those that spam cities like there is no tomorrow and/or forward settle their 2nd starting settler 3 tiles away from your capital. Washington is the worst in my experience, followed by Cathy, Alex and Iroquois (don't remember leader name). Pocatello can be very bad too because of his UA. Sometimes there is simply nothing you can do but end up with space for 2 (sometimes only 1) cities and you must eat the warmonger hate from other civs to claim some land.

If you don't want to go to war with them, the most important thing that I find is to keep them in war.

You'll need a good economy and spare gold to do so (or resources).

Also, watch when they sign a peace treaty, you'll need to bribe them to declare war on a new opponent. They can otherwise declare on you in as little as two turns I've found.

Very rarely they'll declare on you when they're already at war, but not every often.

kb27787 said:

Better yet, once you are friends early game and they ask for help, GIVE IT TO THEM esp if it is gold or gpt unless there is no good reason to. They will ask to renew the deal all game but the amount of the gold/gpt will not change! Meaning that you will be friends even with ideology and whatnot for the grand price of around 3-5gpt The magnitude of "they asked for help and you provided" is independent of the amount/worth of stuff given.

Click to expand...

In the Indonesia DCL, Rome asked me for a luxury early on and I gave it. When the deal expired, we renegotiated and I charged gold per turn for the Lux. So I only had to 'give' it away once. However, I have no idea if the diplo modifiers were different each time.

consentient said:

Then they TRIPLE citadel-bombed me! and were clearly ready to DoW with 6-7 Infantry on my border.

Click to expand...

If you have a neighbor and you send him off all game long to fight others, or if he just does it on his own while you play nice, he is going to get lots of Great Generals. Eventually he will start using them on you so you have to decide if you will stand up and fight or let him take your nice tiles. Either way its your fault. Poor strategy.

Thanks budweiser

In a few weeks time you will understand exactly why I HAD to do what I did, as I will be writing up the game. But I can't share it yet for spoiler reasons