How to handle your Neighbor (Deity)?

This is an interesting thread. I now play a lot more on Diety than I used to, and managing to survive/avoid an early carpet of death is an interesting endeavor.

A key question: to those who play Diety often and are accomplished, are you confident that you can survive one of the early runaway Monsters if they're next to you? Or is it still a crap shoot?

I find now that if I can survive until the Renaissance, I'm pretty much in a winning position on Diety, but getting there can be an adventure. I bribe the hell out of my neighbors, particularly in urging them to target someone else. That isn't without risk, however, if they win too easily and grow huge.

Nick31 said:

This is an interesting thread. I now play a lot more on Diety than I used to, and managing to survive/avoid an early carpet of death is an interesting endeavor.

A key question: to those who play Diety often and are accomplished, are you confident that you can survive one of the early runaway Monsters if they're next to you? Or is it still a crap shoot?

I find now that if I can survive until the Renaissance, I'm pretty much in a winning position on Diety, but getting there can be an adventure. I bribe the hell out of my neighbors, particularly in urging them to target someone else. That isn't without risk, however, if they win too easily and grow huge.

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I'm not a seasoned Diety player but this certainly does depend on the individual circumstances in your game & the civ you are playing.

If you play as Japan you will certainly fare better than most other early civs because Bushido is such a strong bonus that even if you're outgunned & your units spend most of their time damaged by AI carpets they will still be able to fight at 100% strength. This gives you a lot more mobility (i.e. you can move damaged archers every turn and still hit with 100% damage)

China is another Civ. Extra Great Generals with double the combat bonus will give you a powerful edge. Once you have multiple generals you can start planting Citadels on strategic positions and an aggressive neighbor will be hamstrung unless they tech flight ahead of you and hit you with Great War Bombers.

Babylon is a third option. Forget about the science bonus for a sec - the upgraded bowmen and the uber walls will give you a very strong defensive advantage.

I suppose Germany could be a fourth option with their ability to capture barbarians, so long as you can keep some areas in the map covered in fog so camps can keep spawning.

So if you spawn next to Monty or Shaka and you are Brazil there is a good chance you are screwed but if you role one of the above civs you probably have a fighting chance to survive.

Redaxe said:

So if you spawn next to Monty or Shaka and you are Brazil there is a good chance you are screwed but if you role one of the above civs you probably have a fighting chance to survive.

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It's this scenario I'm most interested in. I like playing all civs, and I'm curious as to surviving on Diety a spawn scenario I could survive on Immortal.

Fluphen Azine said:

I think everyone knows that internal food routes are better than external trade routes to a Civ.

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I completely disagree. If you are turtling for a peaceful science victory, maybe. But for CV, DiploV or DomV external trade routes are king.

When I am warmongering, trade routes are my main form of diplomacy when the AI doesn't want to attack anyone (and, inspired by a few of the better players, I am trying to bribe less in my games).

Nick31 said:

A key question: to those who play Diety often and are accomplished, are you confident that you can survive one of the early runaway Monsters if they're next to you? Or is it still a crap shoot?

I find now that if I can survive until the Renaissance, I'm pretty much in a winning position on Diety, but getting there can be an adventure. I bribe the hell out of my neighbors, particularly in urging them to target someone else. That isn't without risk, however, if they win too easily and grow huge.

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Attack them first. Delay NC, build 3 cities and make units and kill them before they runaway. Especially if their UU is Medieval (Shaka, I'm looking at you). If their UU is Ancient (Darius, Alex), you may need an AI ally in the war, but with the right terrain, CB is still a viable strategy on Deity. Liberty is your best tool for this.

If you want to kill them ca. T100 then delay your attack, farm your XP on a CS or another AI and go Honor. I'm slowly getting used to the play style Peddroelm showcases in his videos and it's pretty strong. Starting to war seriously at T100 with a bunch of upgraded heavily-promoted troops is really strong and good fun.

A DoW from the monster doesnt necessarily mean death. You need 1 or 2 sturdy melee and about 6 shooters. That should be enough to survive and get peace. Assuming you co pletely failed at all the other peaceful diplo methods. Above all dont be 8th in army strength.

Nick31 said:

I like playing all civs, and I'm curious as to surviving on Diety a spawn scenario I could survive on Immortal.

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Yeah, I wish there was a way to adjust map difficult on turn 0. I recently made the move to Deity from Immortal. The early swarms feel about the same, it is having to tech harder and faster that I am struggling with, so I think you would be okay at Deity with a spawn scenario you could survive on Immortal.

Nick31 said:

It's this scenario I'm most interested in. I like playing all civs, and I'm curious as to surviving on Diety a spawn scenario I could survive on Immortal.

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No matter what civ you are playing as, very early aggression by you will render any warmonger neighbor impotent. If you are lucky enough to upgrade your initial Warrior to a Spearman, that's all you need to make sure the neighbor never even settles a 2nd city or can improve their resources. Archers are even better and I'll often research Archery first if I find a potential threat next door early.

Just get in their face and kill every unit they build…..especially settlers. You can keep them from ever improving a resource, get a ton of workers, build up XP, and also it really gives you a lot more room to expand. You don't ever have to even take out a city (thus avoiding warmonger penalties). Just don't ever let them breathe.

Monte gets an early UU that doesn't need strategic resources, so he's the toughest to deal with. In his case, I beeline to Chariot Archers.

The key is to make sure they never reach critical mass. Screw diplomacy.

Shark Diver said:

Screw diplomacy.

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"Hear, hear!"

*rattles table at the Warmonger's Conference"

ok... I don't understand what you guys are looking for lol! On one hand I read about the troubles that occur with 6 or more green modifiers going instantly red and how to deal with it. On the other hand I read about how you all want to say "screw diplomacy" and just go full out warmonger! You can't really have both... you have to choose if your just going to be a warmonger or are you going to play nice for a certain amount of time.

I enjoy both styles but I think you have to choose between the two. Either get on with the warmonger path and don't get upset when the world hates you for no reason or the AI creates unit after unit and you get into stalemated war... or.... get on with the diplomacy and play nice with everyone until you have a huge tech advantage and can roll whoever you want.

About the internal food routes... everything I pretty much read suggests they are the stronger of the two choices. I suppose this is more true in the early game rather than the mid or late game. I find myself wanting to run 3 caravans of food to the capital or if I can... 3 cargo ships of food to the capital pre 125 turns. However, many times I have no army and the best way to play with no army is to send some trade routes to civs to get some diplomacy going. I do not suggest you play without early units, however, I am saying if you play a style that has no early army that you better get up some diplomacy so you do not get Dowed.

If you want to play the best Defense is a well armed Offense... I can get into that style of game as well, but I will not get upset about all the problems that can occur from it and sometimes I may have to swallow some bitter medicine.

Fluphen Azine said:

ok... I don't understand what you guys are looking for lol! On one hand I read about the troubles that occur with 6 or more green modifiers going instantly red and how to deal with it. On the other hand I read about how you all want to say "screw diplomacy" and just go full out warmonger! You can't really have both... you have to choose if your just going to be a warmonger or are you going to play nice for a certain amount of time.

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F.A. Why must you choose one or the other? If I decided to harass a next door Attila for 200 turns, but never take a city, I will not get warmonger penalties if I DoW them before we meet anyone else. I can play nice with all of the other 6 civs. Not only am I totally removing a threat, but I also get a great XP farm AND I have much more room to expand, likely into lands that others don't consider "theirs". You are guaranteed to have numerous Logistics archers and now you don't have to worry about even a Zulu invasion.

If you aren't lucky enough to find a neighboring warmonger in the 1st 5 turns and they do get that 2nd city planted, I just wait until my first unit upgrade hut and then DoW. It's not as effective, but it's a heck of a lot better than trying to convince them that they don't really covet my lands and going broke bribing them.

Fluphen Azine said:

About the internal food routes... everything I pretty much read suggests they are the stronger of the two choices. I suppose this is more true in the early game rather than the mid or late game. I find myself wanting to run 3 caravans of food to the capital or if I can... 3 cargo ships of food to the capital pre 125 turns. However, many times I have no army and the best way to play with no army is to send some trade routes to civs to get some diplomacy going. I do not suggest you play without early units, however, I am saying if you play a style that has no early army that you better get up some diplomacy so you do not get Dowed.

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1st trade route almost always goes to a nearby civ. The early science bonus is very powerful early game. 2nd and 3rd will normally go to a CS quest if possible. I'll turn all trade routes internal so I can work University specialist slots and certainly have all internal before World's Fair. You'll also find that I don't usually grow my cities as tall as some other players do, but that's the tradeoff. One more reason why I covet Petra so much…..love the extra trade route.

I am not saying that isn't viable. By all means exploit the heck out of a neighbor! I am all for that. I was trying to explain ways to combat against a bunch of green modifiers going red all of a sudden and how to prevent that from happening. All these ways are viable options and will get you on the road to victory.

Now it comes down to how you want to play your game. Do you want to exploit the AI as much as possible as I do because heck I find it funny and without it I would get bored playing with no bribes, no trade, now war... etc. You can play the game many ways and you can restrict yourself of many exploits to make the game more fair or more of a challenge if one so does desire.

Remember that Warmongering in general is something that the AI can never handle. I think the top players have shown this over and over again with or without using many exploits or tactics as I'd rather call it.

I dunno about this early trade route to a civ in general. I usually have to send one to a civ because of relations but I think top players have shown that it is better to grow your capital instead of sending external routes. (I remember Tommynt saying you send your trade routes for food to the cap... Period... and it is the best play! We all know that Tommynt is never wrong right lol??

I guess it is more of a matter of how the player wants to play. I notice that the internal food route games seem to win in a faster turn time with the exception of full out warmongering which wins the game very early if done correctly. The faster you out tech the AI the easier any warmongering will be. Even when you go full Xbow rush you start to get a tech advantage pretty quick since you start taking all the cities and land away from the AI.

So of course you can play it the way you are saying and have no problems but what do you do with that warmonger when he is on the other side of the world getting bigger and bigger and you want to stay on his/her good side? I remember an IDS game recently with Egypt where everyone was having trouble with a troublesome Greece and he wasn't nearly as far as across the other side of the globe but he was far enough away not to be able to punish him early. The same with another IDS game where Shaka was very close and the few players that played got rolled pretty quick. I even got rolled as did Glory_7 on the DCL Sweden game. I believe that I could of had a great DOF if I would of only gave him back his worker instead of taking it from the barb camp. So if you scout in the wrong direction and can't get to that Liberty Expanding Warmonger fast enough to wreck him you need to figure out how to get him as your DOF asap.

I find that these problems mostly arise when I have a plan before I start to play and deviate from the original plan too late. The IDS 7 Rome game is an example of how I wanted to play slow and peaceful and two Liberty Expanding Civs boxed me in pretty quick. If I wouldn't of been so stubborn and just changed my plan to full out warmonger after I seen how close they were my game would of been much easier and most likely would of been some sort of a win instead of losing with 5 turns left on my last shuttle part. I get this way from time to time because I do not play the game with some sort of a formula. I mostly wing it and figure out ways to catch up later but I do get into some stubborn stalemated wars at times like your 1st IDS game as Carthage!

Fluphen Azine said:

So of course you can play it the way you are saying and have no problems but what do you do with that warmonger when he is on the other side of the world getting bigger and bigger and you want to stay on his/her good side?

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Totally different scenario and requires a much different approach. Do you plan on knocking him/her back to the stone age at some point? You certainly can try turtling, but I can recall a certain game (ahem….Rome DCL) where Portugal still hated me no matter what I did.

To clarify, my problems with aggressive AI behaviour are on those rare occasions where I try to play entirely peacefully.

I am of the belief that even if you give the AI every reason to like you (5/6 green buffs or whatever) and no reason to dislike you, they will STILL sometimes DoW.

If people want to test this, there is a new DCL up where peaceful turtling will no doubt be the most common strategy.

consentient said:

To clarify, my problems with aggressive AI behaviour are on those rare occasions where I try to play entirely peacefully.

I am of the belief that even if you give the AI every reason to like you (5/6 green buffs or whatever) and no reason to dislike you, they will STILL sometimes DoW.

If people want to test this, there is a new DCL up where peaceful turtling will no doubt be the most common strategy.

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It's all flavor... (and they can still be bribed by another AI if their warmonger flavor, regardless of the buffs you have, is above 4; but you have to take into consideration that each game the AIs roll within +/- 2 of their default flavor); tell me the next time Gandhi with 5 green buffs and no red buffs DoWs you OK?;

btw for CV internal routes are still the default choice (especially when you get workshops which I usually detour to, and comes around the time you want Sistine; hammer caravans are essential for wonderwhoring) until you are ready to finish the game off (why would you send caravans outside around early to midgame where you have a puny 10 pts of tourism?)
SV however, should make use of external routes, since the early beakers means faster writing, which is faster philo, faster education, etc.

Again, this is interesting feedback.

So, the thought is that rather than bribe and build a defensive army (and quite possibly failing should the Carpet get too big and you're a civ without any military buffs), you should go on attack? Even if on Diety the warmonger opponent will have several cities and large army?

You research archery and rush with archers and horsemen? And this doesn't doom you to other AI playing on other continents in regards to being behind on science and what not? Isn't this an all in strategy, too? As if you don't get a juicy capital or two, aren't you too far behind to catch up?

Nick31 said:

Again, this is interesting feedback.

So, the thought is that rather than bribe and build a defensive army (and quite possibly failing should the Carpet get too big and you're a civ without any military buffs), you should go on attack? Even if on Diety the warmonger opponent will have several cities and large army?

You research archery and rush with archers and horsemen? And this doesn't doom you to other AI playing on other continents in regards to being behind on science and what not? Isn't this an all in strategy, too? As if you don't get a juicy capital or two, aren't you too far behind to catch up?

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The non-consensus non-opinion of the people who have responded to your question is that it situationally dependent.

Both Consentient and F.A. are bigger (and better) warmongers than I am, yet I am more likely to pick an early fight. Some civs are going to come after you no matter what you do. If you spawn next to them, my stance is to hit them first.

My #1 goal is to get a scout upgraded to an archer early. If this happens, I'll DoW nearest threat and make damn sure this unit gets range and logistics ASAP. That alone will defeat capitals, repel invaders, and allow you to always be strong. If it doesn't happen, and you either get stuck with a spearman upgrade or no upgrade at all, you have to beeline archery and build a few…….no worries, NC delay of 10-15 turns doesn't kill you. Just get archers and harass the evil neighbor.

Nick31 said:

Again, this is interesting feedback.

So, the thought is that rather than bribe and build a defensive army (and quite possibly failing should the Carpet get too big and you're a civ without any military buffs), you should go on attack? Even if on Diety the warmonger opponent will have several cities and large army?

You research archery and rush with archers and horsemen? And this doesn't doom you to other AI playing on other continents in regards to being behind on science and what not? Isn't this an all in strategy, too? As if you don't get a juicy capital or two, aren't you too far behind to catch up?

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I played the DCL #6 twice. The first time I tried for a CV and messed it up.

Then, after reading a post by Peddroelm consoling someone who got launched on the turn before he was going to do it, I started watching his videos, as well as other premium warmongers.

In my 2nd play through, I cleared my continent before the other AIs even found it. So they had no knowledge that there had ever been other civs on it. So no Diplo hit, lots of luxes, and a wide empire which means that unless you have an AI going full Rationalism and playing like a human (which didn't happen), then you can still comfortably win whatever VC you want.

I've done it a number of times since. But not all maps are suitable for an early rush. And you will NEED to go Liberty if you want to clear the continent before the Caravels show up.

Shoshone are the worst to have next to you i started up a game as Assyria right next to me was him and his second city, don't let him live long on deity or he will box you in and when you tell him to stop settling cities he gets pissed of evan though his army consists of like 4 composite bowmen and yours is siege towers and 3 times the amount of units he has. Also india is kinda shifty i iliminate them early evan as Korea or Venice