Beyond Sid

:eek: :eek: :eek: Bamspeedy, you are unbelievable. 90% discount for Ai and you are still destroying them :eek: :eek: :eek:.
 
Originally posted by Speaker
Depends how you mean "best player." I would put Sirian up against anyone, especially using honorable tactics.

This is an interesting point.
The question is: Could anyone (even a great player like Bamspeedy) win this difficult variant without using a few exploits?
I'm not criticizing any tactics, excellent play by Bamspeedy, but given the advantages of the AI and the circumstances in this particular game a strictly honorable play would likely have failed.
 
It depends on exactly which 'exploits' or tactics you would allow. Some questionable tactics I used didn't really affect the result at all and only shaved a few turns off how fast I will/can finish. However, certain ones certainly did.

Depends if you just want to win by any method, or just by conquest. This map could have been won earlier if I built some cavalry (need defenders to protect your units when making the initial beach landing and to fill up your defensive armies, but after that it would be faster to use cavalry-especially when you have railroads so that your cannons and defense units can catch up easier). So, it would depend if you want to 'just win', or if you want to restrict yourself to only building slow defensive units like I did. I could have won by culture, but sold off improvements to prevent it. I can see somebody winning by UN/Spaceship if they built libraries/universities and researched while the AI kept fighting amongst themselves. They would need to destroy Egypt and Mongols, but after that then the tech lead is yours if you want it. You certainly won't be getting 1 tech/4 turns on this level, but with 1 tech every 10-15 turns, I think you would still get the tech lead if Egypt and Mongols are taken care of.

With how slow the tech pace was, it would have been better had I used a 1 scientist to research. Would probably have had a tech lead for awhile that way. I could have gotten nationalism and steam power a long time before I actually got them. (just never bothered to try and steal them). I researched writing and Literature at minimum science, a couple other techs at maximum science (so I have something to build while waiting to make contacts), then mapmaking at minimum. After mapmaking I shut off science completely.

I could have used settlers (either 'combat settlers' by building in enemy territory, or by settling just by their borders to push their borders back and allow your troops to get closer to your target. I used neither of these.

I did spend time building colloseums when I ended up selling them rather early. Not spending time building the colloseums could save alot of time.

Palace/city rank exploit: Doesn't really affect the outcome in this game. By the time I used it I was already in control of the game. All it really is doing is letting me build up a pretty bank account. Although I have 400+ riflemen, I really only need 200 (or less). Would have switched many cities to build 'wealth' if I needed to support more troops.

Breaking peace treaties (and getting cities in the peace treaty): This certainly saved some time by not having to go island/hopping after the AI cities. Doesn't affect the outcome, just saves time.

ROP rape I did not use. I did have troops in enemy territory when I broke a peace treaty, but it was on the same turn that we had signed peace, so really there was no 'catching the AI by surprise' or anything like that. The AI was at war with me on one turn and then was still at war with me the next time he got to move. And he had his units from the cities he gave up instantly transported to his capital which he can use immediately.

When I was preparing for war with Egypt I did get my units in her land before war. She was the one to declare war. All I did was save myself from building too many more galleys. Turns out that I had more than enough units there already that I didn't need all those galleys full of troops. The AI does NOT do anything different within their land in regards to troop movements when you have your units sitting in ships off-shore waiting to land (like forming an 'island blockade' or sending more military to that city), so declaring war before landing my troops there doesn't affect anything at all.

'Baiting' the AI. Used this with my 'army wall' tactic. This certainly helped speed up things tremendously by bringing all their units to one spot to be obliterated. But, really I don't see any difference than if had landed units in other spots of their empire to distract their forces. Either way you get the same result. It's not my fault the AI is so scared of armies that they won't attack them unless they have no other choice. If I didn't use this, I probably could have killed some civs faster (or needed less cannons) because they would impale all of their offensive units on my armies (just keep the armies fortified in your city until their main attack army is obliterated).

Getting the AI to declare war by using espionage. Saves a little time, but doesn't affect the outcome. Could well have just declared war myself.

Declaring war on a civ who can't reach you. This tactic was a must, IMO. Slowing down the tech pace. Egypt was the only one who could reach me, so at first I had Egypt fighting everyone else, thus not allowing any of the AI to trade luxuries and also inducing war weariness on each other (because Egypt had the Great Lighthouse, she could throw units at them). You want to slow the tech pace to a certain extent (allow yourself the time to build what you need), but having the tech pace a little faster would save alot of time (if you get artillery, infantry, tanks, railraods, etc.).

Palace jumping was a must I think (to win by conquest). Without a Forbidden palace that early, I don't think the game would have been won.

There are some micromanaging tactics that I did not use because I feel they are too tedious.
Shortrushing I did not use. Nor did I plant forests on tiles that did not previously have a forest just so I can chop it down and get 10 shields from all those tiles.
There was no barbs, so no 'barb farming' for gold or training units to elite status.

Island blockade-I used troops for this for most of the game. If you use military units it is acceptable from what I've seen.
Later on when I had cities that had a specialist in them (because they didn't have another tile to use), I would have those cities build a worker and then gradually replace the units that were guarding the coast with workers (was stockpiling workers in preparation for steam power). This doesn't affect the outcome. Instead of workers there I could have left the military units, since I had already invested the time and shields to put the original blockade there. I'm paying for the upkeep of all those units that are just guarding the coast.
I think it would be easier if I didn't have an island blockade. The AI would send much of their military onto ships hoping to land on my home continent, while I take all of their cities before they reached me. (and if I kill 1 galleon, then there goes a ship + 4 other units). You can't expect to just rush a military unit in a city when it is threatened, because due to the maximum # of units, you may never get that unit! This problem is taken care of when you get railroads (don't need a blockade after you have rails, just some units somewhere on that island).

City placement: I didn't use ICS. 90%+ of my cities had 11-12 tiles to use. I think you need a dense build (but not ICS) to be able to support the huge military and to have enough temples, cathedrals to keep up in culture.

Playing the AI is an exploit.
 
Playing the AI is an exploit
:D

I've been following this game from the beginning and have enjoyed seeing the way you've mercilessly had the AI wrong-footed at every turn.


Ted
 
It looks like I'm going to shatter my old record for # of great leaders in a game. I generated 24 leaders from 1984-1989. On some turns every single battle was by an elite unit.

1983-previous post

IBT-Zulu and Celts sign peace.

1984-Sign peace with Zulu for Intombe, 9 gold.
Abandon Intombe.
Declare war on Zulu.
sign alliance with Celts Vs. Zulu for 18 gpt.
Capture Atzcapotzalco

Kill 31 cavalry
7 pikemen
2 medieval infantry
4 musketmen
1 knight
5 archers
1 horseman
lose 3 riflemen
generate 6 leaders

IBT-Kill 2 cavalry
4 cavalry retreated

1985-Kill 23 cavalry
2 pikemen
2 knights
4 jags
1 archer
5 horsemen
1 longbow
generate 2 leaders

1986-Kill:
11 cavalry
45 pikemen
32 medieval infantry
17 musketmen
27 archers
1 spearman
7 horsemen
1 swordsman
7 longbowman
1 cav, 3 horsmen retreated
lose 13 riflemen (had to attack some 2 hp pikemen and 3-4 hp archers/medieval infantry because I didn't have enough cannons and didn't want their stack getting any bigger, since I see many reinforcements on the way, lost quite a few to 2-hp pikemen)

Generate 4 leaders

The 40 or so cannons and 90+riflemen I had heading towards Tenochtitlan take a detour to help out in the massive stack that is being formed by Calixtlahuaca.

IBT-With most of the Aztec units over on the west of their empire, the Celts unload 3 units from a caravel on the eastern side of the Aztec land. Unfortunately, when it is my turn, there is only 2 units there (probably had to disband a unit). I wonder if the game disbands a unit that is furthest away from your cities when you are running a defecit? Anyways, there is only a Celt pikeman and a knight, so they won't take the city. It will be interesting if all the Aztec units get distracted by this, though.

1987-Kill:
2 cavalry
1 knight
29 pikemen
17 medieval infantry
23 musketmen
20 archers
5 longbowmen
1 cavalry retreated
lose 9 riflemen
generate 2 leaders.

IBT-The Aztecs send a dozen or more troops in the direction of the Celt pikeman/knight (but can't reach them this turn), then a medieval infantry kills the pikeman. then they send another 100 or so units in the direction of the lone knight. A cavalry kills it, THEN they send the rest of their active units at me. Apparently, the AI only uses units in the order that they come up, and can not see that a different unit would take care of that obstacle, so that the current unit could do something different. Using units out of order, or the 'wait' command, the AI does not use. Therefore, exploit for the human!

1988-As I attack a SOD of the Aztecs, a fiesty 1 hp Aztec musketman generated a leader. So I will have to sacrifice a rifleman to kill it.

Kill:
1 cavalry
31 pikemen
11 medieval infantry
20 musketmen
13 archers
3 longbowmen
1 jaguar warrior
2 horsemen
3 spearmen
1 Aztec Great Leader
lose 4 riflemen
generate 5 leaders

Get an army on the road between Calix. and Tenochtitlan, forcing their reinforcements to go the long way around. Get some excess cannons near Calix.

IBT-Kill 1 longbow
lose 1 rifleman

1989-Capture Calixtlahuaca. Aztecs no longer have saltpeter.
Kill 7 cavalry
14 pikemen
10 medieval infantry
11 musketmen
4 archers
4 longbow
1 spearman
lose 3 riflemen
generate 5 leaders

1990-Capture Tenochtitlan. Aztecs no longer have horses.
kill 1 pikeman
4 musketmen
lose 1 rifleman

IBT-Kill 1 frigate
lose 3 galleons (they are trying to fight through my naval blockades)
1 cavalry retreated

1991-Capture Tlatelolco.
kill 7 cavalry
1 knight
15 pikemen
10 medieval infantry
17 musketmen
7 archers
4 longbowmen
lose 1 rifleman
generate 3 leaders

IBT-kill 1 frigate

1992-Kill 12 pikemen
12 medieval infantry
3 musketmen
3 archers
2 longbow
1 jaguar warrior
1 spearman
1 horseman
lose 5 riflemen

The Celt's 2nd continent has 0 terrain improvements. They were unable to send any workers there from their home continent due to the Aztecs being in between the two continents, and I imagine that they wouldn't be too enthused about building workers while they were at war. Here is a screenshot from when I investigated one of those cities. They are making 14 gpt from that city, but they are spending 14 gpt just in improvements/buildings in that city. They are running 20% science, and notice they are 1 shield short of building their cheap knight.

 
So exactly how much of Celtic and Aztec land is there?
 
Originally posted by Amenhotep7
So exactly how much of Celtic and Aztec land is there?

Here is the Aztec land:



You can see on the mini-map the two continents the Celts have.
Celts have 13 cities on their home continent (the continent east of the Aztecs), 1 on the island to the north and 11 cities on the continent west of the Aztecs. Aztecs have 4 cities on far away islands, and the Zulu have 3 cities.
 
Ooh...These Celts'll be a hard case to crack, but if you can keep resource superiority, you've got it made!:goodjob: I just hope u finish in time!:eek:
 
For get galleons, that is probably the most units I have seen in a single screen.
 
1992-previous post

IBT-Kill 2 frigates (Aztecs are building catapults in a vain attempt to bombard my ships).

1993-Capture Tlaxcala and a catapult. Aztecs no longer have iron.
Kill 9 pikemen
6 medieval infantry
5 musketmen
3 archers
2 longbow
lose 3 riflemen

1994-Capture Teotihuacan. Aztecs no longer have coal.
At least 1 galleon in Teotihuacan

Kill 1 cavalry
5 pikemen
1 medieval infantry
21 musketmen
3 longbowmen
1 horseman
lose 3 riflemen
generate 1 leader

IBT-Celts sign peace with Aztecs.

1995-Capture Malinalco, Tzintzuntzen, 1 catapult, 1 worker
Kill 4 musketmen
5 longbowmen
1 jaguar warrior
lose 1 rifleman
generate 1 leader.

1996-Sign peace with Aztecs for these island cities:
Tlalmanalco
Chalco
Cempoala
Ixtapaluca

I couldn't get one more island city (Huexotla, because they place a high value on Ixtapaluca), but it's a city with only 2 tundra tiles (and water tiles), so won't produce much, even with their massive discount.

Break peace treaty.
Get Celts to fight Aztecs for 18 gpt.

Aztecs have riflemen (but not for long...)
Celts also just got nationalism.

Capture Tlacopan, Xochicalco, 4 workers, 1 catapult
Kill 1 rifleman
2 pikemen
4 musketmen
3 longbowmen
5 spearmen
lose 5 riflemen

1997-Capture Tula, 4 workers
Kill 1 rifleman
1 cavalry
1 pikeman
1 medieval infantry
1 musketman
2 longbowman

1998-Capture Tamuin, 1 worker, 1 catapult
kill 2 riflemen
3 pikemen
3 longbowman
1 cavalry

Try to steal tech from Celts (immediately-1626 gold)
Fail, but no war.

Current military:
94 workers
542 riflemen
459 cannons
366 galleons
27 armies (could have more if I bothered to build/keep more cities)
7 musketmen (in armies I left on some colony islands that have luxuries)
a few dozen slaves

Military advisor is telling me to build more cannons.

Have over 107,000 gold with nothing to spend it on.
Printing press would cost me about 15,430 gold to research. Communism would be over 49,000 gold.
 
366 Galleons!? :eek: Even I've never built an armada of that size... BTW, care to show any screenshots of island blockades?
 
Speaking of island blockades......

I'm doing great, have a gigantic military, and I'm ready to pound the living daylights out of the Celts to finish up this game. Just one problem.....They won't let me land!!! Every single tile that I can see on their home continent has many units on it (average tile has at least 8 units on it).

1998-previous post

IBT-I have a few ships in celt territory (their home continent), I leave when requested.

1999-Move into celt land again, but don't see ANY open tiles! They have 8-12 units on EVERY TILE!

:eek: What am I going to do? It's too late to research up to marines (fastest I can research industrial age techs is still going to be over 30 turns). I can't even do an ROP rape, because I need to land first! They aren't purposely forming an island blockade, they just have that many units just running around their cities.

Is this game a lost cause?

Send most of my troops to the other Celt continent, at least I know I can land there...But what will I do for the Celt home continent? Will they actually give up a city on their home continent in peace talks?

IBT-Still some ships in their territory, but this time I don't leave and war is declared.

2000-Kahun is on a 4-tile island. They have a unit on 1 tile, and 8 units on another tile, but leave 1 tile open!
Land about 50 riflemen, 50 cannons by Kahun

2001-Land about 50 riflemen, 50 cannons by each of these cities: Mendes, Teayo, and Tanis.

Capture Kahun.
Kill 2 knights
3 medieval infantry
2 pikemen
1 riflemen
lose 5 riflemen
generate 1 leader.

IBT-kill 2 medieval infantry

2002-Capture Mendes, Teayo, Tanis.
Kill 1 knight
4 pikemen
8 riflemen
1 spearmen
lose 5 riflemen

Land about 50 riflemen, 50 cannons and a couple armies by Segusio, and a gazillion units by Ratae Coritanorum.
 
:eek: For a second, I thought your unquestioned military capabilities was in danger!:lol: Though the Celts give me an idea for future military strategies...;)
 
100-200 years ago, I should have been looking for an open tile and just put a single unit there while I was at peace with them, so that later I have a tile to land on (just disband the unit before declaring war to save your rep).

I'm obliterating their 2nd continent, but I don't know if I will ever land on their home continent.
 
This is an awesome showcase game Bamspeedy!

I hope there is some way out of the landing dilemna. One thought - can you rush a huge number of Frigates over there? I don't know if it might work - if you damage a huge number of units in a two turn interval, might they go into the cities to heal?
Edit: This is a long shot for sure, frigate bombard appears to be rather weak. And then they'll have to move to heal. I sure hope they'll give a home continent town for peace!
 
Some will go to the cities to heal, others will fortify where they are to heal. I've seen this when bombarding them with cannons during my land assualts. When I get them all down to 1 hp, most will run back to a city, but a few will just run back into their land and fortify right at the border. And all it takes is 1 unit to prevent me from landing. And then of course there is the healthy units from cities and other further in-land areas that will most likely move to those tiles.
 
Darn. Just one staying behind is too many. What a dilemna. There must be a way, you are so close! I hope they'll give you a foothold for peace.
 
Hmm...well, my only suggestion I can give to you is good luck, and hope they give you one homeland city...:rolleyes:
 
And then Moses parted the sea......



IBT-kill 2 longbows
1 knight retreated

Celts leave an open tile on their home continent!
Unfortunately, it's not right next to a city.

2003-Capture Segusio and Ratae Coritanorum and raze them both. Abandon the 3 cities I captured on the previous turn. Load my troops up and sail back to the Celt home land.

Kill 1 knight
5 pikemen
1 riflemen

I was able to gather a 'few' units that were in the area to land on the Celt open tile on the home continent. These were units that didn't get loaded up on galleons right away from the Aztec war, troops from after the seizing of Kahun, and troops I had hanging around there because I knew what I was sending at their other continent was overkill. 3 armies, 100 cannon, 72 riflemen. Also unload some workers (to build fortresses until I can capture a city and get my other troops get there).

Land 3 riflemen and a cannon by the Aztecs last city (outside their territory, because they have 2 workers planting forests on their only 2 land tiles).

IBT-Due to my armies, the Celts leave my stack almost completely untouched, despite that they have 100's of units that could hit the relatively small stack.
Kill 2 Zulu riflemen who tried to take back Hlobane.
Kill (of Celts):
4 med. infantry
1 archer

2004-Investigate Huexotla (Aztec city). Stuck at size 2, producing 1 shield per turn, building a riflemen (due in 5 turns). They are a republic, so can't pop-rush a defender. Give Aztecs steam power for 76 gold (all of their gold), so they can't cash-rush a defender. Declare war and capture their workers, moving into Aztec territory.

Kill (of the Celts): 1 knight
6 medieval infantry
6 pikemen

Move troops a tile closer to a Celt city. My huge army should reach here next turn, just as I take the Celt city (after I take the city, then they WILL send all their troops at me, instead of just a couple of cheap throw-away units like they did last turn.

Sign peace with Zulu for Mpondo, WM, 27 gold.

IBT-kill 2 knights
6 medieval infantry
2 longbowmen
1 archer
2 knights retreated

2005-Kill 2 spearmen, 1 longbowmen
Capture Huexotla
Aztecs have been destroyed.

Capture Gergovia!
Unload most of my army, but most of the armies and some other units couldn't move this turn, just land in the city, or on the tile next to it.

Kill 6 knights
11 medieval infantry
14 pikemen
4 riflemen
1 longbowman
1 archer
1 horseman
1 knight retreated
lose 12 riflemen (attacked Gergovia with only 50 cannons, so ended up facing 3 hp riflemen)
generate 3 leaders

Sign a MPP with the Zulu for my world map.

IBT-MPP triggered and Zulu declare war on Celts.

Kill 21 knights
1 gallic swordsman
4 horsemen
28 knights and 2 horsemen retreated
lose 1 army and 2 riflemen (have 2 armies with only a couple hit points left-but now I can move my other 2 dozen armies into the city)
 
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