Team Saber Embassy

General_W

Councilor & Merlot Noble
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
8,198
Location
Washington State (GMT -8)
Team Saber Embassy
Team Saber
Civ: Ottomans
Traits: Industrious, Scientific
UU: Sipahi 8.3.3 (+2 attack Cavalry, +20 shields in cost)
Contact: Turn 70

Spoiler Member List at Contact :

gbno1fan
dutchfire
greekguy
lost_civantares
Nobody
GreyBeard
Calis
classical_hero
Chamnix
Elear
Cyc
Marsden
Bartleby
Donovan_Zoi
denyd
Churchill 25


First letter from Saber:
Dear members of The Council,

I am very pleased to say that our teams have met. The crew of our SNS Blackbeard saw the CC Wong Kwon after a long voyage.

I think that our civilizations will be able to help each other in our mutual interest. We are the only teams that are not agricultural, and therefor it's very well possible that we will be smaller than the competition. But if we work together, we can be stronger.

How do you like to be contacted? I prefer MSN-chats, but I can agree with other proposals. My private email address is evldrunen@msn.com. I would appreciate it if you send a copy of your messages to that address in the future. I hope to hear from you soon.

Yours Sincerely,

Dutchfire
Chief Ambassador of Team Saber
 
Ok – my initial reactions to this…

1) What timing! Right before we sign the big treaty with FREE.

2) For some reason I get the vibe from this letter that we’re not the first team they’ve met. They got this letter out really quick which is either a) extreme efficiency, or else b) they already had a letter like this written and just put our name and attributes on it.

Do we want to purse some trades with them? It’s not to late to bail/modify the treaty with FREE.
Would we rather just stick with FREE, and then play it cool with SABER?

We better get a plan together asap!

P.S. And this makes zyxy's move out into dangerous waters totally worthwhile! :thumbsup:
 
Good!

Btw, Sipahi is attack 8.

SABER has been holding the save for almost 24 hrs, probably because they needed to decide whether to make contact or not. I think they are occupying the coastal tile on route beta with a ship. Perhaps they want to block access to their land that way - smart move, but not helpful against the Torch.

I guess we should send a nice reply soonish, but maybe not before we get the save. We can perhaps ask them whether their land is on the other side of the shallows, and when we have the save we can perhaps inquire about tech deals.
 
I went ahead and added dutchfire to my MSN contacts – and ended up having a quick chat with him.

I kept everything vague and general, (and only had to dissemble a little bit ;) ) but I think was able to get some good tidbits from him.

Here’s the full Chat:
Spoiler :

Dutchfire:
hey
General_W:
Hey - this is General_W from the Civ3 MTDG
Dutchfire:
Civ4 ?
General_W:
no - 3. You're team Saber, yes?
Dutchfire:
yes
General_W:
(I've been more active in the Civ4 MTDG of late)
General_W:
but I'm also on the Council
General_W:
just got your letter
Dutchfire:
okay
Dutchfire:
how are things with the council?
General_W:
Going well. We're excited to meet you. I just posted your letter in our forum, so I don't have much to say - just thought I'd see if I can touch bases with you.
General_W:
saw this was your prefered method.
Dutchfire:
yes, judging from the civ4 MTDG, this works best
General_W:
Your team given much thought to what kind of deals you might like to see with the Council?
Dutchfire:
well, at the moment we're mostly interested in gold/tech deals
General_W:
you mean you want to sell tech? or buy it?
Dutchfire:
tech for tech if possible, but if needed we are prepared to take/offer gold too
General_W:
(we haven't seen the save yet, so we don't know how we compare technologically to you)
General_W:
ok. good to know.
General_W:
I won't keep you - but did you have an example of a deal you might like?
Dutchfire:
perhaps something like warrior code + wheel for Iron Working + Ceremonial Burial?
Dutchfire:
we're mainly interested in philosophy/code of laws to get to republic, but I don't know if you have one of these techs already
General_W:
you'll have to forgive me for being a bit out of the loop. (And I've got to run here now) - but I'm really happy to have made your acquaintance. I’m going to post this chat in our forum, and you can be sure we’ll be sending you back a letter very soon.
General_W:
Hope you're having a good weekend?
Dutchfire:
my soccer team won today, so everything is great
and how is everything going with evangeline?
General_W:
- going really well. She's just now getting over a slight cold/runny nose
Alright - well, great talking with you. Congrats on the soccer win - I'm sure we'll get to chat more later
Dutchfire:
See you later


The trade he proposed is obviously not balanced. And the whole chat seems to reinforce for me that we’re Saber’s second contact.

Anyway – hope that was helpful in figuring out what we want to do!
 
I would not modify our treaty with FREE - but are we now obliged to tell them we have met SABER?
 
I would not modify our treaty with FREE - but are we now obliged to tell them we have met SABER?

By the letter of the treaty: no, because it has not been ratified yet and it says "meets" , not "has met" (page 4 US & THEM, second bullet).

By the spirit: probably yes.

General_W: you're right, the deal they suggest is base cost 7 on their side, and base cost 8 on ours. Still it would be useful to get these cheap techs, maybe they can add gold. Well, I would first like to see their tech position before saying more on this.
 
True, but is there any good reason not to tell them? Being open and up front could win us valuable goodwill points. I don't see any reason to with hold the information for long - though I would wait at least till we see the save.
 
SABER does not have communication with FREE.

They do not have ceremonial burial, writing or iron working.

Will try to figure out what they do have.

EDIT: SABER does not have dyes and does not need gems.

My best guess of current tech costs (and base cost):

warrior code: 80 (90)
the wheel: 105 (120)
mysticism: 120 (120)
code of laws: 264 (300)
currency: 420 (480)
construction: 600 (600)

We have already surmised that FREE has CoL.
SABER indicated they have the wheel and warrior code.
One of them has currency! My guess is that it is SABER.

We have research 1140 beakers in base tech cost (counting map making as finished. If SABER has researched warrior code, the wheel, math and currency then they've researched 930 beakers in base cost.

EDIT 2: We need to contact SABER very soon to open tech trade negotiations.
 
We actually can trade contact info already! I didn't realize this...

I also checked what SABER researched, and agree with donsigs conclusions.

We can trade IW, CB or Writing to SABER, which means they have BW (starting tech), masonry (starting tech), alphabet, pottery, wheel, wc, math and currency. Total value researched/popped: 150 + 60 + 120 + 90 + 240 + 480 = 1140 beakers.

Currently they could be researching IW, CB, Writing, HBR. Their trade proposal suggests one of the latter two, my guess is writing because they should know by now that troops are not really needed yet. This could be the reason why they didn't propose a trade for writing, they will know thta we have it.

Their research path is a bit strange though - very broad and not very deep. The only first tier tech they don't have is CB. I understand the need for the wheel, but warrior code? Could be a hut pop.

A deal of the kind SABER: WC + Wheel + 15 gold <-> Council: CB + IW looks good to me. More gold is even better of course.

EDIT: I think our position towards SABER should be friendly and cooperative, with occasional trades to keep ahead of BABE and GONG, but not as close as FREE. However, SABER is a good team to have on our side (because of Sipahi's), and we certainly don't want them on somebody else's side. Maybe this is also a sentiment we can express to FREE...

EDIT: up to now we have researched Masonry + Pottery + Writing + Lit + Philo, for a total beaker value of 120 + 60 + 240 + 300 + 180 = 900, and nearly 360 for MapMaking, for 1260 beakers total. (Somehow I keep getting different numbers than donsig). SABER could have invested up to nearly 240 beakers in writing which brings their total to 1380 beakers, so assuming similar research speed it doesn't look like they traded a lot. For comparison: we have traded a value of 240 480 beakers with FREE.
 
A deal of the kind SABER: WC + Wheel + 15 gold <-> Council: CB + IW looks good to me. More gold is even better of course.

That's good for starters but we need a second trade to snag currency. Liturature and philosophy have a combined base value equal to currency. Should that be our second trade offer? These two trades get us closer to the middle ages but they also get FREE (due to MAAP) and SABER closer as well. Do we want to help SABER move along the tech path or are we better off keeping our trades to a minimum? Would not trading to the fullest even slow them down since they will encounter other trading partners?

(Somehow I keep getting different numbers than donsig).

Looking at your list I'm pretty sure I overlooked masonry. Guess I shouldn't be doing calculations when I should be sleeping. :lol: I have more faith in your numbers than mine zyxy.
 
WC may have been researched in an attempt to grab an SGL, on the assumption that most teams wouldn't research. Or perhaps they wanted to be able to build horsemen fast.
 
This discussion is getting really disjointed between the two embassies, but I think that will settle down once we&#8217;re past this initial hurdle.

I think a modest trade or two with Saber is in our interest. As long as we&#8217;re not helping them get Literature or to Republic, or any big expensive techs really.

Even though I&#8217;m arguing in the FREE embassy that we need some kind of approval from FREE to start &#8220;serious negotiations&#8221; with Saber, I think we should still send a note of interest to Saber.

Something like:
Dear Saber,

We&#8217;re pleased to have met you! We understand that you mainly like to communicate via InstantMessanger, but we wanted to send at least one note to say hi and let you know that we&#8217;re interested in trying to work out a deal like Dutchfire suggested. (Council gives Iron Working and Ceremonial Burial for your Wheel and Warrior Code)

Obviously, that trade isn&#8217;t quite balanced, and Dutchfire seemed to indicate that you&#8217;d be willing to offer some gold to help make up the difference?

What did you have in mind?
Please feel free to respond via e-mail, or else try to catch General_W online!

To a peacefull future!
- General_W, speaking with the voice of The Council (and in the 3rd person, apparently...)

Or something like that. What do you think?

EDIT: Sent 4/22/07 to Saber gmail and to Dutchfire
 
I think the proposed message is very good. It seems we want to be on decent terms with SABER without embracing to our bosom. Keeping channels open and messages flowing is good but there appears to be no rush to seal any deals. We will need to be careful in the future to try to keep word of MAAP from SABER. We should be thinking about what to do and say should SABER insist we not trade away what they trade to us. We do need to be a bit close-mouthed and the sticking to the points before us (as in the proposed message) is something we should try to do.
 
I like the note, we don't particularly need the trade where-as it would appear SABER do, so lets have them put an offer on the table for us to consider. It will also buy us some time to conclude the treaty with FREE and agree with them on what strategy to adopt with SABER.
 
I like the note, we don't particularly need the trade where-as it would appear SABER do, so lets have them put an offer on the table for us to consider. It will also buy us some time to conclude the treaty with FREE and agree with them on what strategy to adopt with SABER.

I am of a similar opinion. Play nice, let them suggest a deal, get agreement with FREE on how we deal with SABER. FREE is our perfect allies, Saber can be a useful trading partner when both FREE and us decide to strike a deal.

Key is to make them feel that we appreciate them and need them more than we actually do...
 
Agree with the previous speakers.

We could add a line asking for permission to enter borders by curragh. Or is that too early, and do we want to attempt the crossing first?
 
Agree, we don't want to have that permission until we know we're going to need it, and that they won't be the sole benefactors of such a treaty.
 
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