Punishment Sphere

Joined
Dec 30, 2005
Messages
625
I honestly don't get this building.

Obviously, it's an 'evil' building - something you'd associate with someone like Yang or Marr. However, given their 'natural' social engineering policies of choice, they're the ones that don't need it since they're the ones able to easily control drones using police. So, who needs P spheres, then? Answer: Free market democracies!

So, we have the evil despots 'peacefully' subduing their disgruntled lower class with police and the do-goodie stand-up-for-human-rights democracies of the world showing just what they really stand for by placing their ditto citizens in these atrocity-machines.

This makes sense - how? Somebody explain the idea behind immersion-breaking nonsense base facility #1!
 
Perhaps the designers of the game consider each faction to have the potential to be very zealous as regards implementing their own social agenda/ideology and to hell with the opposition. Only the Peacekeepers would appear to have a morality that would discount the use of 'Punishment Spheres'. Even the Gaians can implement a 'police state' in order to enforce their ideology.

I sometimes think that people are mis-interpreting the different ideologies in the game if they think it is ever a matter of good versus evil. I think it is more a contest between which ideology best supports the survival and improvement of mankind. Yang has a vision of how humanity can be stronger through submission to his Will, Santiago promotes strength and self-reliance, Deidre advocates working in union with nature, Morgan the idea that greed motivates people to excel, Prokhor that the main pursuit should be new knowledge and technologies no matter the cost, Mirriam the virtues of adherring to belief in code and a strong moral code and Lal is Lal ;)

However, looking at ourselves...we regard our societies as peaceful and democratic and yet we're constantly at war and have places such as Guantanamo Bay.

This isn't to say that the police penalty on 'Free Market' shouldn't be looked into in favour of something more appropriate.
 
You are right that there are other things that 'don't add up' such as, in your example, the Gaians possible use of a police state. However, I feel the difference is that while the Gaians could use that civic, they mostly wouldn't (because their traits precisely encourage playing them as a green democracy - just as how Yang benefits far more from police state than fundamentalism). This is how I think the PS is different, it appears to me it is precisely more attractive to the factions that story-wise would refrain from using it (yes, we know Morgan might nerve staple people running into his research hospital but I suspect there's a difference between this and the public display of torture that is the P-sphere - I think the sphere would give Morgan even greater PR problems).

My point with this post is to ask whether there's something I'm missing about the PS in terms of game strategy that somehow means the 'evil' factions benefit more from using it. Because, as is, it appears to me the building is rather more useful for the 'good' factions as a means of combatting their pacifist drone problems from running a free market. It's just a little too good for precisely that niche task.
 
Strictly speaking, punishments spheres counter the effect of free market not democracy. Of course, in Smac most free market societies will also be democracies.

Since marketeers will use only a few punishment sphere bases one could think of them as concentration camps for particurlarly dangerous members of the opposition which are forcrd into/to support the military. The faction leaders could denounce them as enemies of the respective ideology to get the populace to agree with their treatment. For the leaders themselves, neither Morgan nor Zak would have a moral problem with using punishment spheres, Lal (and Miriam) probably would though. I'm not sure about Deirdre.

I sometimes think that people are mis-interpreting the different ideologies in the game if they think it is ever a matter of good versus evil. I think it is more a contest between which ideology best supports the survival and improvement of mankind.

I agree wholeheartedly with this.
 
Hmm... OK, maybe. There definitely are some 'morally ambiguous' leaders in this game. You may be right even Morgan and Zakharov might go as far as to use the P-spheres (even though I have no idea how at least Morgan would manage to explain their presence to the public). Still, there are cases where they don't make a lot of sense - you mentioned Lal and Mirriam as well as Deirdre (who *definitely* wouldn't use them!) and I'd mention Roze as well. Neither Mirriam nor Deirdre are problematic because from a gameplay standpoint they either a) can't or b) are unlikely to run Democracy/Market but Lal and especially Roze are highly likely to do so and both of these leaders seem highly unlikely to be willing to use them.
 
If you really don't want to use Punishment spheres in your games you can use all specialist bases with crawlers instead. It's not as effective but gets the job done (and is available sooner).

Why are you so certain Deirdre wouldn't use Pusnishment spheres?

Regarding Morgan and Zak:
In one of Morgan's quotes we are told about an incident where he nervestaples some people with very little provocation. He does mention that it was a PR nightmare though. Zak is a technocrat who does what he deems necessary and doesn't care much for morality.
 
I dont think that Zak would use punishment sheres because of the -50% labs?

If drone riots become a problem, he would use Thinkers then Transcends instead.
 
Due to the way pacifism drones are handled by the game they are extremely hard to subdue. If you have big bases and a good psych multiplier you might be able to handle two pacifism drones (= one military unit) per base using psych from thinkers/transcends. For anything above that you almost certainly need either punishment spheres or all-specialist bases. Note that you don't need many of those, one or maybe two punishment spheres are usually sufficient.
 
Why are you so certain Deirdre wouldn't use Pusnishment spheres?

Regarding Morgan and Zak:
In one of Morgan's quotes we are told about an incident where he nervestaples some people with very little provocation. He does mention that it was a PR nightmare though. Zak is a technocrat who does what he deems necessary and doesn't care much for morality.

Deirdre has come to Planet to 'Never again repeat the tragedy of Earth'. Her agenda is a green democracy. She TALKS to Planet. The Gaian faction is said to be 'freedom loving' with 'pacifist tendencies'.

She wouldn't put even a planned-polluting atrocity-spreeing Yang in a sphere.

Morgan - I think I pointed to this multiple times already, but yeah, the PR problems. He's probably rather unscrupulous about making money (and views the free market mechanisms as some sort of deity) but those spheres would give him way too much PR problems, if nothing else.

Zakharov... I doubt it would be his first choice but I suppose spheres could become a solution somewhere down the line if it piqued his intellectual interest.
 
Deirdre has come to Planet to 'Never again repeat the tragedy of Earth'. Her agenda is a green democracy. She TALKS to Planet. The Gaian faction is said to be 'freedom loving' with 'pacifist tendencies'.

This absolutely, totally, completely, and one hundred percent wrong.

#GAIANS
Gaia's Stepdaughters, The Green, Gaians, F, 2, Deirdre, F, -1, 0, 0, 0, 1,
TECH, Ecology, SOCIAL, -MORALE, SOCIAL, -POLICE, SOCIAL, ++EFFIC, SOCIAL, +PLANET, FUNGNUTRIENT, 1
Economics, Green, PLANET
Economics, Free Market, nil
Gaian, Gaian,
Lindly, Scott, Lindly's Rest
Lady, beautiful, tree-crazy, ecologically sensitive, eco-daft,
Nature Loony
preserve Planet's native life
to guard, understand, and preserve Planet's native life
stamping out all legitimate sentient development of this planet
stamping out all legitimate sentient development of this planet
cripple any and all efforts toward sentient progress on this world
dancing naked through the trees
dancing naked through the trees
spouting tree-crazy prattle
tree-crazy prattle, M1
environmental initiatives, M2
pagan rituals, M2
ecology tax, M1
preserving and cataloguing Planet's native life
my Environmental Police
the Planetary Ecology Code

There's nothing that indicates "Freedom loving" or "pacifist tendencies" about the Gaians. The closest is the democractic agenda, which only means that all citizens get to vote and says nothing about how citizenship is determined. The "tragedy of Earth" that she's out to not repeat is the destruction of the natural environment, and she'll cheerfully crucify anybody who doesn't agree with her. The phrase "Environmental Police instead of "Guardians" or "Acolytes" indicates more than a passing familiarity with suppression methods.

Okay, so I'm a Gaian fanboy. Sue me. ;)
 
Freedom loving and pacifist tendencies are both mentioned in the faction profile.

She's not going to cruficy anybody. And she's not running a police state. Seriously.

Of course, she'll gladly destroy Planet by launching her arsenal of planet busters at you simply because you are running market. But that has to do with the game being set up to create antagonists based on SE policies, not the story line.
 
Though her preference for Green economics as well as her Hybrid Forest commentary contradict the idea of freedom love -- population growth control can only occur in an extremely monitored and strict environment.

And, of course, there's my all-time favorite quote from Zhakarov when you build a Temple of Planet, which at least hints that the Gaians are rather vicious when they attack. :)

The Empath Guild quote also hints at attempts at control.

The Telepathic Matrix looks pretty, but it's all about keeping people under a control so absolute it makes punishment spheres look silly. Deirdre's the one talking.

I've just never gotten the impression that Deirdre holds back. I reserve that honor for the pusillanimous wimp. :)
 
Can anybody think of a reason for Lal to condone a sphere?
 
Got to put Yang somewhere.
 
The concept behind the Gaians is more the pro-green anti-free market environmental protesters who were prone to peaceful and not-so-peaceful acts of civil disobedience to raise awareness of environmental issues. They were relatively more prominent in the 1990's (when SMAC was made) than now. Think 'save the environment whatever the economic or social costs'.

The Gaian's also have a preference for using mind worms (you know, the things that cause death with excruciating pain) against other human factions.

As said up page all the factions are best thought of as extreme versions of their ideologies, having both a lighter and darker side.
 
I dont think that Zak would use punishment sheres because of the -50% labs?

If drone riots become a problem, he would use Thinkers then Transcends instead.

Hey, let's not confuse mechanics with lore here. Zak would throw troublemakers into the sphere faster than they can say "We must dissent". Probably depending on whether they're involved in important research, though, and maybe on where they are on the tenure track. But he's got more important things to deal with than trying to get some uneducated punks to behave.

As for Lal, well, I don't know if he would directly order punishment spheres to be built and used himself. But there's no doubt that that nepotistic would look the other way if a family member appointed base governor thought it would be the "right thing to do".

... I'm not sure where I got the picture that Lal is prone to nepotism, actually. I think it might have been mentioned in GURPS:AC somewhere?
 
Nepotism sounds reasonable coupled with the 'U.N. style bureaucracy' trait.

Lal's another good example. Lorewise, there's no way the Peacekeepers would use punishment spheres.
 
Might I point out... if you play with the videos on, whenever you eliminate a faction you get a nice clip of them being put into... a punishment sphere. No matter who you're playing as.
So you could argue that everyone uses them regardless of the socio-political ramifications.

... I thought of that right now, so it probably sounds pointless. But still.
 
Meh, the punishment sphere end sequences aren't very well done. They're just generic tacked-on clips to make you feel having achieved something when you eliminate a faction. Cha Dawn, for instance, is portrayed as a grown man in it. Storywise, they make little sense.

Lal's the one worried about things like Yang's treatment of Hive population and the increasing ability to mind control 'unwilling subjects' through use of robotic implants in the brain. It doesn't make sense for that same character to also subject enemy leader POW's to torture, much less his own population.

It's just a flaw in the game story. Because, of course, it is just a game.
 
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